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Thread: They should balance bard buffs around party size.

  1. #1
    Soulwalker RemedialHappyMan's Avatar
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    Default They should balance bard buffs around party size.

    Imo the way bard buffs currently work the scaleing difference in usefulness between 20 mans and 5 mans is much to great. in a 20 man 5% more dmg for the raid group literally translates to killing the boss 5% faster, however in a 5 man 5% more dmg is hardly worth replacing the bard with a set class.

    This is a pretty simplified example since bards provide much more utility than just 5% more dmg but as a pure support class there usefulness should scale to be useful for a group of any size.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker RemedialHappyMan's Avatar
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    Sorry apparently I can't edit my original post to add more to what I want to say... so here is a follow up.

    The other reason besides the vast difference in the power of your buffs between 20 man and 5 man content is that you can't just switch to an equivalent role for smaller groups.

    Since the rouge class is 6dps 1support 1tank you don't have an alternative if you want to perform that role. I feel as though its unfair that your should have to switch roles when you want to be viable in a curtain situation.

    So my suggestion is to make the base effect for bard buffs to be high lets say

    25% more phys dmg for coda of cowardice with -.5% per every person above 5 within the bards group and or raid group. That way with 20 people the debuff would stay balanced as intended and the bard would remain a valuable asset in a 5 man setting. With the rest of the bard buffs scaled equivalently.

    Any thoughts?

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    Soulwalker RemedialHappyMan's Avatar
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    I also think its worthy to note that I am mainly speaking of motifs and codas which generally are scaled to 20 man standards.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemedialHappyMan View Post
    Imo the way bard buffs currently work the scaleing difference in usefulness between 20 mans and 5 mans is much to great. in a 20 man 5% more dmg for the raid group literally translates to killing the boss 5% faster, however in a 5 man 5% more dmg is hardly worth replacing the bard with a set class.

    This is a pretty simplified example since bards provide much more utility than just 5% more dmg but as a pure support class there usefulness should scale to be useful for a group of any size.
    If they implemented your suggestion today, then a month from now people would be crying that "bards suck in raids" because they don't give as much benefit as they do in 5 man. Then what?
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 05-21-2011 at 06:33 AM.

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    Soulwalker RemedialHappyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    If they implemented your suggestion today, then a month from now people would be crying that "bards suck in raids" because they don't give as much benefit as they do in 5 man. Then what?
    They might complain about that, but if you do the math it wouldn't be true, if you use the before mentioned spell. lets say your party consists of 1 phys dps 1 magic dps 1 healer you as a bard and a tank

    and lets for simplicity's sake say that you and the tank do roughly equal dmg in magic and physical respectively.
    you have as far as dps 1.5 phys and 1.5 magic the buff would then increase phys damage by 25% meaning .375 phys dps so the bard essentially adds a total of .875 dps to the group thats dealing 3.375 dps you = roughly 26% of the groups dps which is balanced.

    in a raid setting lets say you have 3 healers 2 tanks 1 support and the rest equally split dps so 8 phys dps including the tanks you would add roughly .4 phys dps which is higher than your 5 man contribution. when combined with your other various ability's a bard surely adds more than any single other character to a 20 man raid.

    and numbers aside I am only suggesting this because the combination of bard buffs doesn't even = the contribution of any other rogue class to a 5 man party.
    Last edited by RemedialHappyMan; 05-21-2011 at 06:53 AM.

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    Telaran
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    There are certainly situations where a bard in a 5 man contributes more than a dps spec, mainly because we don't all play in a vaccum tube. However the same could be said about any other classes buffs. The more people you buff in general the more benefit you recieve. You might as well put a limit on how many people can use raid flasks, scrolls, healing and mana potions. People gather buffs for raids for a reason it increases their chance of sucess. Aside from Bards Archons have great buffs/debuffs as well that benefit the entire raid.

    I am also going to assume the developers included this in their thought process when developing raid content.
    Last edited by Spartus625; 05-21-2011 at 07:17 AM.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker RemedialHappyMan's Avatar
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    But what I am suggesting doesn't alter how they perform in raid content in anyway...

    It only increases their effectiveness so the buffs that are useful for raids don't lose so much potency in 5 mans, in the equation before the 5% melee dmg increase in a 5 man is = to adding 0.075 of a melee dps so a 4th of the bard motif buff pool increases a 1.5 phys dps to a 1.575? how is that even close to reasonable.

    since their dps and healing get outshined so much by the respective group members they need to be able to assist the group in the only remaining way which is there buffs.
    Last edited by RemedialHappyMan; 05-21-2011 at 07:31 AM.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    In many setups a bard already contributes more total DPS to a 5man than another DPS does, and healing and utility on top of that, not sure exactly what you're complaining about considering they're already good.

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    Soulwalker RemedialHappyMan's Avatar
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    I am not really complaining I am just saying the buff scaling seems a little off.

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    So what you are saying is you want bards to make 5 man groups as powerful as 20 man raids? Thats never going to happen. All mmos raid content has been designed similarly you get massive buffs and increases in raids and will always out perform your 5 man groups. I think bards already contribute enough to a 5man group I certainly see a difference with them, and don't feel they need any sort of increase. I wouldn't be oposed to it just seems a little OP to me.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Better yet.. who uses an offhealer in any expert (t1 or t2) after 1.2? Therefore, why are you complaining?
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  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    The only major thing I'd like to see for bard is an increase to their base DPS, because all else being equal, a chloromancer contributes more total DPS to a party than a bard, since their natural DPS is fairly high for support and the biggest group increase comes from living energy/fervor, with the motifs being a distant second for bards.

    Better yet.. who uses an offhealer in any expert (t1 or t2) after 1.2? Therefore, why are you complaining?
    Anyone who wants to do it faster? it's not about the "offhealing" support classes add more total damage, and thus faster AND safer clears, not running with one is just inefficient if given the option.
    Last edited by Celestein; 05-21-2011 at 08:11 AM.

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestein View Post
    Anyone who wants to do it faster? it's not about the "offhealing" support classes add more total damage, and thus faster AND safer clears, not running with one is just inefficient if given the option.
    Sorry but keeping 3 dps and 1 main healer (clerics can off heal just fine) goes a lot "faster". Well, for us anyways. Then again, we don't suck.

    Or get a Chloro that doesn't suck and have them solo heal. I've known a few Chloros that could solo heal the majority of T2's pre1.2. After 1.2, it's not even a question if they could or not, they just do it.
    Last edited by Hazy Moon; 05-21-2011 at 08:27 AM.
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  14. #14
    Shield of Telara
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    lol i dont get it. so bard should add 5% dmg debuff in 5 mans but not in raids? sure that makes sense....

    listen idk wtf you are talking about it just doesnt make an gd sense. why situationally change what the buff does. should we also nerf how much dmg plate armor reduces when in raid as opposed to a 5 man because in raid you have more healers so you dont need as much dmg reduction?

    this idea is terrible. sorry to be a tremendous prick here but do you really think its the bard that is causing the party to mow through raid bosses that much faster? Archon buffs contribute a whole lot more to raid than bard buffs to honestly.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackZilla View Post
    this idea is terrible. sorry to be a tremendous prick here but do you really think its the bard that is causing the party to mow through raid bosses that much faster? Archon buffs contribute a whole lot more to raid than bard buffs to honestly.
    Yeah you only really want 1 bard in raids. You can LoS Fanfare everyone so casters get their buff, melee get theirs. Then motifs and Virt. Archon to debuff the boss'. No need for more than 1 bard.. ever..
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