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Thread: plutonus musings and AP vs Crit

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    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Default plutonus musings and AP vs Crit

    So I've tried 3 builds on plutonus with full buffs/whestones/tablets etc.. and have found out some things.

    first off i stack AP and i notice some builds scale better with AP and some scale horribly with AP. oddly enough i find bladedancer to scale horribly with AP. i found this odd and did some investigation, come to find out it has little to do with bladedancer and everything to do with the crappy AP scaling on deadly strike and the 0 AP scaling of fiery spike. basically if you have fiery spike in your build you want to stack crit, fiery spike does a lot of dps... if you stack crit!

    secondly, i tested melee ranger, ranged saboteur and the 27bd/19sin/20nb build and for AP stacking the melee ranger kills the BD build, but another rogue who stacks crit was using BD and flat out owned me which leads me to the AP vs crit issue, especially since when he tried melee ranger i beat him by 200 dps. yes we both have relics and what not, the only real difference is AP vs crit stacking. oddly enough, saboteur which is supposed to be the worst AP stacking build still pushed 1440dps for me on plutonus, remember it was the ranged build so i had no serrated blades going off which could have been another 100dps or whatnot. also happy to report that high explosives (44pt sabo talent) was doing 360dps on it's own, so if you are thinking of going sabo for single target and dont take this ability... might want to rethink that

    also note i tried 2 diff melee ranger builds, one with fiery spike, and other with quick/keen spam and i do more dps with the quick/keen spam one due to my AP stacking, but the reverse is true if you stack crit, this should give you some basis for yourself if you are thinking of the 2 melee ranger builds or even the BD build. basically dots stack well with AP, some other abilities do to, but mostly other things do not and are better off stacking crit. and when i say dots, i mean physical dots, spell dots do not scale at all with AP, this is why riftblades hate life so much right now and assassins are loving life.

    verdict, if you can stomach doing 200-300 less than your max but like reading books or watching tv while raiding then saboteur is the best spec for every fight in the game, there is no fight where it does not work and all fights for me it was doing 1400-1700 dps depending on if single target or some adds thrown in.

    TD;LR if you stack crit you will do the most dps with a build with nightblade and fiery spike in it, if you stack AP you need to stay away from such builds and stick to heavy assassin or ranger.
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    Rift Chaser Iskevosi's Avatar
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    Interesting thoughts and findings. I must admit, I've been stacking mainly Crit over AP anyway.

    I need to try Sab properly and see what I can get it to do.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iskevosi View Post
    Interesting thoughts and findings. I must admit, I've been stacking mainly Crit over AP anyway.

    I need to try Sab properly and see what I can get it to do.
    i was using cookie cutter 44sab/20sin/2rng and i was losing a LOT of dps by not meleeing and even more by using my greaters and trinket which add 0 dps to ranged. my guess is, i could eek out another 100dps by taking those 2 points out of ranger and simply melee'd lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
    i was using cookie cutter 44sab/20sin/2rng and i was losing a LOT of dps by not meleeing and even more by using my greaters and trinket which add 0 dps to ranged. my guess is, i could eek out another 100dps by taking those 2 points out of ranger and simply melee'd lol
    There's another thread discussing the merits of putting the 2 pts in either ranger or NB. Some were even throwing in fiery spike into their rotations. I personally don't like melee sabos and will stick to the ranged version.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentraedi View Post
    There's another thread discussing the merits of putting the 2 pts in either ranger or NB. Some were even throwing in fiery spike into their rotations. I personally don't like melee sabos and will stick to the ranged version.
    fiery spike will lower my dps since i stack AP so even if i went 2 nb id not use it. nothing seems to beat 5x spike 5x shrap 5x spike (if tablet or joyed timebomb/expose) then repeat.
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
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    Ascendant Dinadass's Avatar
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    If you have the parses saved, I'd recommend going through them and making sure the kill times were about the same length, cooldowns were used at the same times, etc. Also, I've noticed that Spotter's Order uptime varies a lot in my guild from fight to fight. I would have broken 1500 on Plut last night (with t2 weapons) if SO had been up as much as it was last week. I checked by comparing average Baneful Rune damage between the two attempts.

    It does seem counterintuitive that BD wouldn't scale well with AP. You say Deadly Strike has crappy AP scaling, but shouldn't it scale just as well as every other finisher, and then have the first tier talent boosting it higher? Also, I'm not sure what rotation you use, but I'd imagine that you are using Backstab, Precision, etc while you have the Deadly Dance buff, which all have an AP bonus and should be a large portion of your overall DPS.

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    Rift Disciple Crimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
    secondly, i tested melee ranger, ranged saboteur and the 27bd/19sin/20nb build and for AP stacking the melee ranger kills the BD build, but another rogue who stacks crit was using BD and flat out owned me which leads me to the AP vs crit issue, especially since when he tried melee ranger i beat him by 200 dps. yes we both have relics and what not, the only real difference is AP vs crit stacking. oddly enough, saboteur which is supposed to be the worst AP stacking build still pushed 1440dps for me on plutonus, remember it was the ranged build so i had no serrated blades going off which could have been another 100dps or whatnot. also happy to report that high explosives (44pt sabo talent) was doing 360dps on it's own, so if you are thinking of going sabo for single target and dont take this ability... might want to rethink that
    Slightly off topic, but you should try 33bd/19sin/14nb instead, parses out much better for me (Pulled 1600 non-shocking-cipher-dps on plut on our last kill, where I pulled aggro and was dead and out of the fight for a good 10 secs, and lost buffs).
    Last edited by Crimmy; 05-20-2011 at 08:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
    fiery spike will lower my dps since i stack AP so even if i went 2 nb id not use it. nothing seems to beat 5x spike 5x shrap 5x spike (if tablet or joyed timebomb/expose) then repeat.
    1) What is tablet?
    2) Does 44 sab beat out 13+ bd sabo builds?
    3) So stacking AP is good on sabos, or does crit work better? Sorry, I got confused in your OP.

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    Sez
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    Thanks for the info Hoko. More and more I am slowly drifting to full-time 44sabo. PvE and PvP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    1) What is tablet?
    2) Does 44 sab beat out 13+ bd sabo builds?
    3) So stacking AP is good on sabos, or does crit work better? Sorry, I got confused in your OP.
    -it's a rift drop, restore energy over time and increase str.
    -sab specs with 13bd pts are useless imo, if you want to stay at melee there is a lot of specs doing better dps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    1) What is tablet?
    2) Does 44 sab beat out 13+ bd sabo builds?
    3) So stacking AP is good on sabos, or does crit work better? Sorry, I got confused in your OP.
    It does not, the purpose of 44 sab is to be range dps mainly, the melee sab is better off using the 26sab/19bd/21sin build. 44sab doesnt scale too well with Spotters order due to burst every other second and lack of constant application of dots (serrated blades, poisons, baneful). SO works better for builds that are constantly attacking/melee'ing as oppose to 5s burst moments.

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    Ascendant Dinadass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisheer View Post
    -it's a rift drop, restore energy over time and increase str.
    -sab specs with 13bd pts are useless imo, if you want to stay at melee there is a lot of specs doing better dps.
    I haven't found a single melee build that does more single target DPS than 26sab 21sin 19BD. 1000 unbuffed DPS on the dummy with t2 weapons, and ~1500 single target DPS in raids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinadass View Post
    I haven't found a single melee build that does more single target DPS than 26sab 21sin 19BD. 1000 unbuffed DPS on the dummy with t2 weapons, and ~1500 single target DPS in raids.
    ;o nice numbers when I tried a melee sab I did only 1400~ dps on plutonus, and with bd or melee ranger usually i'm doing 1600+, maybe I did something wrong, I'll try a melee sabo again =p

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    So for a ranged spec - 44 sab is beating ranger + pet? Also, AP or crit for sab? I'd think crit but it seems you aluded to AP for sab.

    And the 2 ranger is for ranged dps calc off abilities (assumption be same tier or higher for ranged weap)?

    Haven't done sabo in a long time but without deadly dance, I don't see how this spec is beating ranger dps. Quick shots are critting for like 700isg for me and a charge isn't without deadly. Finishers I think would go to sabo due to 44 point extra damage. Charge booster damage should be negliable. Bleed on ranger attack plus pet damage.

    How is this beating out ranger damage, I don't see what puts it over the top.

  15. #15
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    lots of posts, hard to respond to them all.

    basically deadly strike was not scaling better than final blow due to the flat % boosts to final blow where deadly strike only got the 25% AP bonus, and 25% AP bonus not as good as 15% flat, 15% behind, and 8% with impale bonus of final blow.

    for comparing 44 sab to ranger, i did 1440 as ranged sabo on plutonus, if i went ranged ranger i would have been 1600 if i could have kept my pedestal up, but since that would be impossible, then probably around 1500-1550 range so ranged ranger is still better dps for single target... for aoe sabo wins by a large margin, and aoe = 2+ targets, not just 4+ or 5+

    my melee ranger build does 1100 ish to dummy but i have relic dagger, and optimized should be 1750 or so this next plutonus kill assuming buffs keep, up, trying to reach 1800 mark but our bard doesnt keep buffs up and spotters drops a lot.

    also as 27bd i was capping out around 1650 dps on plutonus, so it's not terrible :P
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

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