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Thread: Re: Clerics - did I miss something?

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Re: Clerics - did I miss something?

    Please note that although I fully expect to be called a troll for this, that is not the intention. My concern is to make sure some opinions get heard on these boards other than the seemingly FOTM "make me a god-killer" type of requests and cries. I would assume Trion will continue to balance based on their own calculations but I really hope some people can take this constructively and rethink just what / who it is they're trying to kill in PvP / WFs.

    I see a TON of complaints that rogues can't solo (or duo, in a lot of cases) a halfway skilled, healing cleric. Those comments, or future posts in the thread, are often combined with a statement that says something similar to "healers are the class we're supposed to be able to slaughter with one hit, using no cooldowns and having no reprecussions."

    Well, that might be a slight embellishment, but if you're honest, you know what I'm talking about.

    So, I'm wondering where someone from Trion wrote or said that rogues are supposed to be the bane of healers?

    I personally think (NOTE the tone of opinion here...) that ANYONE who is unhappy that they cannot solo (or duo) a healer is too stuck on some previous game's version of the old rock, paper, scissors equations for combat.

    I'm not going to go into detail but I'm old enough to have killed with and died to fireball wands during the second month that UO was out on retail. Suffice it to say that I have played a metric ton of MMOs since ... what? ... 98? I think?

    I would like to put the idea on the table that I don't think rogues in Rift are meant to kill healers. TBH, I picked that up pretty quick. We are, and always have been, the counter to mages and other leather-wearing fools. We are there to help CC warriors and healers.
    When it comes to gaming, the reason rogues get leather armor and mages get cloth is because mages do more damage and they do it at range. Thus, THEY are the bane of clerics. THEY should be the ones dropping clerics and tanks. What I think is the most important note people need to read is that YOU DON'T GET TO DO MAGE LEVEL DAMAGE. Why? You wear leather and get stealth. You wanna deal the damage? Roll mage. Just do it in my server cluster, please, so I can roll you with my assassin.
    Rogues are (and in my experience always have been) there to:
    (this is based on priority)
    Melee rogues:
    a) debilitate and smash mages
    b) cause pandemonium and incite panic in the rear lines
    c) help CC / silence / interrupt healers while others (see: mages and non-stealth melee DPS) deal the predominant amount of damage to take them out completely

    Ranged rogues:
    a) HELP DPS clerics, mages, other rogues, and tank / melee DPS
    b) CC tanks and non-stealth melee DPS - i.e. you are your healer's best protection.
    There are a lot of reasons you are DPS HELP... you wanted leather and a chance to spec for stealth? These are your trade-offs.

    There is an absolute ocean of difference between playing a good rogue class and playing your rogue class well. Stop trying to get Trion to "balance" your class so that you are able to kill any other class 1 on 1.

    Tanks should be impossible for a rogue to take out. They should even be feared by rogues.
    Next in line should be healers. The only ones we should be able to solo are those that are horribly beneath our level, very poorly geared, and pretty much Corky Thatcher's level of skill.
    Third in line should be melee DPS. These guys should have a general upper hand simply by armor factor. They should be a debatable attack by melee rogues but a fairly consistent kill for ranged rogues who are played right.
    Other rogues should be about even if all things are equal. i.e. items, level, and skill.
    Mages should be our bread and butter. Why? They should be able to nuke anything they see coming. Which is why rogues get stealth. If you go no-stealth ranger or marksman, don't be so angry when a clothie mage drops your butt in five spells. You chose to sacrifice damage for survivability.

    So - can you kill a healing cleric? Hopefully not.
    Can you kill a bard? You should be able to.
    If you can't kill a mage, I would say there are a few options:
    1 - You need to rethink your tactics, spec, and research your equipment, buffs, and consumables.
    2 - If none of those work, go roll up your own mage and learn their weaknesses. Then go back to #1.
    3 - If you still fail at just ONE type of mage (not just one particular player, but a particular spec) bring it out to the public as it may really need to be adjusted.

  2. #2
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    flaccid post.

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    To be honest, I quit reading about the 3rd paragraph, and here's why.

    The complaints about clerics isn't about 1 person not being able to take them down, it's about multiple people not being able to take them down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perlfreak View Post
    To be honest, I quit reading about the 3rd paragraph, and here's why.

    The complaints about clerics isn't about 1 person not being able to take them down, it's about multiple people not being able to take them down.
    Yes and no? There have been a few posts where rogues are complaining that they have to use cooldowns to kill a cleric, and think that thats too much.

    I personally think no one person should be able to kill a healer, because at that point healers because unplayable. Personal opinion of course, so, whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perlfreak View Post
    To be honest, I quit reading about the 3rd paragraph, and here's why.

    The complaints about clerics isn't about 1 person not being able to take them down, it's about multiple people not being able to take them down.
    Cool with me.
    My goal is for Trion to see it.

    I think we all want a company that stays in touch with the wants, desires, rants, etc. of their playerbase (something I personally think WoW lost sight of somewhere along the way). And, thus, I find this the most appropriate forum in which to post my own notes to them.

    It's just too bad that many of the threads you're talking about just turned into nothing but Kindergarten level trolling.

  6. #6
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    Its not the 1v1 people are complaining about. Get over yourself.

    Its the problem where 2 full PUG's cannot kill a single R6 healer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perlfreak View Post
    To be honest, I quit reading about the 3rd paragraph, and here's why.

    The complaints about clerics isn't about 1 person not being able to take them down, it's about multiple people not being able to take them down.

    It's got nothing to do with the primary souls and everything to do with the setting.

    I have a Rogue in my guild with whom I'm (my Cleric) on an equal footing in terms of gear and level -- it's all PvE gear of the same tier (t2), no PvP soul, no valour, etc. He can kill me in 2 seconds flat if I don't have heals on, 4-5 seconds if I put Orbs and HOTs on myself.

    Cleric healing is not the problem. The Cleric PvP soul is very strong and valour is even stronger than it used to be. If multiple Rogues can't bring down a single Cleric it's because either:

    - They're attacking a Justicar with Mien of Leadership on.
    - They're attacking a Cleric being ninja-healed by another Cleric. (More on this below.)
    - They're attacking a Cleric of higher PvP rank / gear than they are.

    The build that you'll find most in PvP is the Warden/Justicar/Templar which is brutal (sometimes Purifier thrown in). Again, the issue is them healing one another. If you don't lock them down they heal everyone, if you try to take them down one at a time they heal each other. You can spam-purge their HOTs off, but that's not entirely effective and is time-consuming.

    Anyway my point is that Cleric healing certainly does not need a nerf, given that the same rules currently apply to both PvE and PvP as that goes. There simply needs to be changes either in the PvP souls or in the availability of skills useful in group PvP settings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinich View Post
    Yes and no? There have been a few posts where rogues are complaining that they have to use cooldowns to kill a cleric, and think that thats too much.

    I personally think no one person should be able to kill a healer, because at that point healers because unplayable. Personal opinion of course, so, whatever.
    so it's ok for a cleric to be able to solo me, but I, the dps role, can't solo the cleric?

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    Xsi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highstrung View Post
    I see a TON of complaints that rogues can't solo (or duo, in a lot of cases) a halfway skilled, healing cleric. Those comments, or future posts in the thread, are often combined with a statement that says something similar to "healers are the class we're supposed to be able to slaughter with one hit, using no cooldowns and having no reprecussions."
    Assume those are troll rogues or players who do not understand balance. Do not read into it. That all being said - for what it's worth - that doesn't appear to be a troll post - if rogues can easily take down a mage in healer role or rogue in healer role, why is it difficult with many rogues focusing on a cleric in healer role to take down?

    There are many aspects as to why but consistently (and not just from rogue complaints), healing tank clerics are seen as way out of balance compared to all other healer types on the survivability side. It would be one thing if rogues had trouble against all healers, but it's not. It's only tank clerics. Now, go to your own cleric boards and read through some of the little gems where defensive tank/healing clerics just feel like the "own" everyone. Even the dreaded classes that everyone else whines about like Pyros/Warlocks/Champs/Marksman.

    It does not take long to understand that there is an issue with tank clerics. There is also an issue with Inquisitor/Soul Drain spike damage but that's for another thread.

    It's not about killing all the time or being killed all the time in PvP. There is objectives in PvP warfronts that are highly biased to overpowered on tank healing cleric survivability specs to an nth degree. It's to the point where stacking heals is a common premade theme (and we know what that leads to aka the Bard nerfs).
    Last edited by Xsi; 05-19-2011 at 10:20 AM.
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  10. #10
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    I agree with alot of what was said.

    To bad most ppl reading it do not understand what you meant.

    They fall under the Corky s of the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinich View Post
    Yes and no? There have been a few posts where rogues are complaining that they have to use cooldowns to kill a cleric, and think that thats too much.

    I personally think no one person should be able to kill a healer, because at that point healers because unplayable. Personal opinion of course, so, whatever.
    Or you create a system where one cleric can heal more than one dps worth of damage, but only on other people or when left alone/not being engaged. You use a system of hard interrupts or something similar to achieve this. This makes the cleric reliant on support and support reliant on the cleric. It also creates a necessity for support to peel enemies off of clerics if they want any chance of success.

    This is the system I prefer (ala DAoC). It avoids the wow/eq2/rift paradigm of uber tough cleric.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    It's got nothing to do with the primary souls and everything to do with the setting.

    I have a Rogue in my guild with whom I'm (my Cleric) on an equal footing in terms of gear and level -- it's all PvE gear of the same tier (t2), no PvP soul, no valour, etc. He can kill me in 2 seconds flat if I don't have heals on, 4-5 seconds if I put Orbs and HOTs on myself.
    Sorry, but your PvE spec and PvE gear doesn't count. I tear clerics like you up all the time. If you have to cast a heal, I'll own you.

    Cleric healing is not the problem. The Cleric PvP soul is very strong and valour is even stronger than it used to be. If multiple Rogues can't bring down a single Cleric it's because either:
    Well I never said anything but about what the problem was, but ok. In the end, you can pin it on any area you want too, what makes things out of balance is when they excel in multiple directions - IE: Good offense, and good defense.

    - They're attacking a Justicar with Mien of Leadership on.
    - They're attacking a Cleric being ninja-healed by another Cleric. (More on this below.)
    - They're attacking a Cleric of higher PvP rank / gear than they are.
    -Don't care what the spec is, it's broken either way.
    -It's not hard to tell if there is another cleric around.
    -Then why are warriors and clerics that are rank6 with orange weapons asking me to bring out my fellblades spec when these known clerics are in the warfront?

    The build that you'll find most in PvP is the Warden/Justicar/Templar which is brutal (sometimes Purifier thrown in). Again, the issue is them healing one another. If you don't lock them down they heal everyone, if you try to take them down one at a time they heal each other. You can spam-purge their HOTs off, but that's not entirely effective and is time-consuming.
    Stacking overpowered things is like that with any classes/combination. Just like all the cheap premades that run around as clerics and pyro's.

    And I don't play MM and generally dislike FOTM specs.

    Anyway my point is that Cleric healing certainly does not need a nerf, given that the same rules currently apply to both PvE and PvP as that goes. There simply needs to be changes either in the PvP souls or in the availability of skills useful in group PvP settings.
    Don't care which direction it goes, so long as it goes. Keep healing the same, remove survivability. Just can't have both.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyrf View Post
    Or you create a system where one cleric can heal more than one dps worth of damage, but only on other people or when left alone/not being engaged. You use a system of hard interrupts or something similar to achieve this. This makes the cleric reliant on support and support reliant on the cleric. It also creates a necessity for support to peel enemies off of clerics if they want any chance of success.

    This is the system I prefer (ala DAoC). It avoids the wow/eq2/rift paradigm of uber tough cleric.
    It's really all the instant spells and never needing to cast a spell ever that does it. If they actually had to cast to heal it wouldn't be such a big deal because I can interupt them or something. But it's the healing to full in your face crap that irritates the hell out of me.

  14. #14
    Xsi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    The build that you'll find most in PvP is the Warden/Justicar/Templar which is brutal (sometimes Purifier thrown in). Again, the issue is them healing one another. If you don't lock them down they heal everyone, if you try to take them down one at a time they heal each other. You can spam-purge their HOTs off, but that's not entirely effective and is time-consuming.
    Good summarized version - it's stacking tank healers that is broken but even a solo tank healer build with a key PvP warfront objective (near a flag or holder of a flag) should be intimidated by the burst of a few rogues on the target. Quite frankly, with gear/PvP Souls/trinkets/abilities as is, it's clear Trion Development team missed combining all these factors together when they were trying to balance the class role.

    All classes can do damage - even if it's autoattack for 25% of your normal "spam" damage rate. It's fine you are survivable. It's fine that you can heal. The problem is combining all of the above into one class with a role combination and gear combination that creates an exponentially troubling balance issue.

    Not that I want to do this but for the sake of understandability, if you played WoW, it is absolutely no different than the Retribution Paladin with high levels of survivability and heals couple with mediocre/low damage pre-Burning Crusade.
    Last edited by Xsi; 05-19-2011 at 10:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xsi View Post
    Not that I want to do this but for the sake of understandability, if you played WoW, it is absolutely no different than the Retribution Paladin with high levels of survivability and heals couple with mediocre/low damage pre-Burning Crusade.
    Pre-BC? So you mean the ret paladins that did mediocre damage, worse healing, but could go immune for a few seconds? Not the comparison you want to make for the point you're trying to make.

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