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Thread: Serious Threat Issues

  1. #1
    Soulwalker Glib1's Avatar
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    Default Serious Threat Issues

    Has anyone else experienced an increase in threat generation by rogues? My guild was in GS last night and both the ranged and melee rogues were pulling aggro off the tank - a tank with whom we have been raiding and doing instances for weeks, and who is VERY well geared and skilled. Suddenly, though, we rogues are pulling boss hate with fair regularity. Inasmuch as I can only speak for the Marksman build, we don't have ANY threat mitigation skills at all, neither passive nor otherwise. Our Assassin/NB/BD was also getting the tacos knocked out of him, so I don't think it is only the ranged classes.

    And before anyone replies with it: yes, I am aware that there are threat-reducing Essences and Trinkets, and whatnot. But they were not necessary before 1.2. What gives?
    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    We had the exact same scenario and exact same issue last night as well.

    Not sure what specs your rogues are running but a couple things can help.

    1) The essences you mentioned previously

    2) Waiting a good 10-12 seconds before attacking -or- using a slow rotation to start

    3) Using a ranger spec for pet threat dump

    In a raid situation, I'm not sure that your MM and melee rogues will keep up with a Ranger spec if all are played correctly. There are some people who will get bigger numbers through RNG, but as far as I know, ranger is top of the heap right now.

    In addition to being better DPS, you can also put a buff on your pet that transfers ALL of your threat to him for 10 seconds. It'd be stupid to open a fight with this as your pet will absolutely rip aggro. But I have found that giving the tank 5-8 second leadtime on threat, pumping my first 2 rotations into the boss, THEN misdirecting threat to my pet means I simply do not pull threat.

    When our tank would die last night I was always the last DPS rogue to go down.

    Once again, you may want to re-evaluate your rogues' specs/rotations and compare them to any rangers in your guild in terms of DPS. If you have content on farm, by all means play what you want. If you don't then you need to make sure your specs are optimized for as much DPS as possible on any encounter.



    Before 1.2, careless rogues could do just fine. We didn't hit hard enough (usually) to pull threat. Now that we're close (or better) than other DPS classes, we have to learn to manage our threat appropriately. Just part of the game. The things I mentioned earlier will help.

    I tank 5 mans a lot, and this is not just a problem in raids. DPS who go nuts to start a fight die. I do what I can to keep mobs off of them.

    But at the end of the day it's YOUR responsibility to make sure you don't rip threat--not the tank's.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple Dungeoness's Avatar
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    It's not just a matter of personal accountability. I have had wacky aggro issues since even before 1.2, which my entire guild can attest to. I don't use weird Riftstalker builds. I don't go crazy with cooldowns the first 20 seconds of a pull. I don't even do the most DPS out of all our rogues half the time. I even started using the threat reduction greater drop from the air raid, and it seemed to fix nothing. Greenscale loves to turn to me. Alsbeth often will as well. I really have no idea what I'm doing to cause it, or if some weird invisible buff (lol) or proc is on my character.
    I'm raging with ire, an ocean of fire.
    My Wrath is the path to all I desire.

  4. #4
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Tank threat generation did not go up other than for void knight, damage did go up quite significantly especially for rogues. So if tank was holding agro only by a small margin before the patch then now he will lose it.

    If tank is given a few seconds to grab agro on a single target and he then loses it afterwards, it's the tank's fault. Dps is only at fault if they burst from the beginning before tank has established agro.

  5. #5
    Plane Walker
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    Slip away is core in my builds now. It resets all threat you have to 0.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Tank threat generation did not go up other than for void knight, damage did go up quite significantly especially for rogues. So if tank was holding agro only by a small margin before the patch then now he will lose it.

    If tank is given a few seconds to grab agro on a single target and he then loses it afterwards, it's the tank's fault. Dps is only at fault if they burst from the beginning before tank has established agro.
    ^

    This.

    If you give the tank generous threat leadtime, then yes, it's a tanking problem.

    I made made my response based on what I saw last night in my raid where the same thing happened: DPS opening up the moment the tank engaged.

    Yeah, threat does seem to be more significant than before.

    But there are workarounds as I pointed out. At least until it's fixed or we learned to live with it.

    I'm not an epeen fapper by any means.

    But I was top raid dps on most fights (unless we had a jailbreak situation) and I never once ripped aggro from our tank.

    It can be done.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker Glib1's Avatar
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    Default ah, the old "tank needs to get aggro" ploy

    While I agree that the tank needs an opportunity to get full aggro, I dare say that this situation is different. In fact, I DID wait 20 FULL SECONDS on our third pull. 20 SECONDS!!! I would pull off the boss and DPS down two faeries (TWO OF THEM!!), then go back to the boss and, what d'ya know?, boss hate. I cannot grasp how I am supposed to play this class under these circumstances. I do not want a pet or have to go so deep into Sin that it wrecks my DPS. So, what, just don't play a Marksman? Or roll a Warrior and level up for two weeks? Seems like it's the game, not the tank in this situation. Marksman and Assassin were under-powered so they buffed the ever-lovin' hell out of 'em, while not providing any threat mitigation at all.
    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

  8. #8
    Ascendant nand chan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glib1 View Post
    While I agree that the tank needs an opportunity to get full aggro, I dare say that this situation is different. In fact, I DID wait 20 FULL SECONDS on our third pull. 20 SECONDS!!! I would pull off the boss and DPS down two faeries (TWO OF THEM!!), then go back to the boss and, what d'ya know?, boss hate. I cannot grasp how I am supposed to play this class under these circumstances. I do not want a pet or have to go so deep into Sin that it wrecks my DPS. So, what, just don't play a Marksman? Or roll a Warrior and level up for two weeks? Seems like it's the game, not the tank in this situation. Marksman and Assassin were under-powered so they buffed the ever-lovin' hell out of 'em, while not providing any threat mitigation at all.
    Are you, perchance, playing Nightblade? Also, it's pretty evident that threat decays in this game, so waiting 20 seconds or 80 seconds will make no difference - since threat gained is not proportional to damage dealt. If you pull more TPS than the tank, you will pull aggro, no matter how much lead time you give him, or how often you stop to kill adds - once you go back to the boss with your full DPS, your threat will go above his.
    Last edited by nand chan; 05-15-2011 at 04:25 PM.

  9. #9
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    It's possible there may be a threat ceiling in this game. I know it exists in some other games, such as Final Fantasy 11.

    If the tank has reached this ceiling, and maintains it there, there is still a chance that a DPS can catch up to the tank even if the DPS gives gives the tank time to generate initial threat. Once the DPS catches up, there is also a chance that the tank's threat will drop very slightly below the ceiling (depending on what type of threat decay is available in this game), making the DPS on the top of the threat list, therefore stealing agro.

    In such games where there is a threat ceiling, it is also the DPS's job to manage threat, not just the tank's.
    Last edited by Threx; 05-16-2011 at 03:01 AM.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    Had the same issue on GS after the patch. A number of the rogues were pulling aggro with different builds. I was playing Sab and even after using a couple of Incriminates on the tank I still pulled aggro. The only way I could avoid it was literally using Incriminate for the entire fight every 30sec.
    Last edited by Kirnan; 05-16-2011 at 03:09 AM.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker Glib1's Avatar
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    Default NB

    @ nand chan no playing MM with only 15 pts in NB
    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

  12. #12
    Champion Coffande's Avatar
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    The essence is crap, if your unlucky it doesnt procc even once during the first 30-60sec of the fight and i just die.
    The trinket has a 10min cooldown, therefor it just isn't enough.

    Slip Away is fine, but i don't want to use Slip Away in every build i can think of.
    Incri from Sab is okish, but i still manage to steal threat from time to time.
    Transfering threat to the pet works best so far, but well i don't like pets that much.

    No other class has such threatproblems. warrior get a passive -50% threat, which i'm so ****ing jelous of.

  13. #13
    General of Telara joker225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffande View Post
    Incri from Sab is okish, but i still manage to steal threat from time to time.
    This right here says you're tank is having problems with keeping agrro or you are bugged in some unknown way.

  14. #14
    Champion of Telara
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    Last night on Prince I unloaded on Duke 1.5 seconds after he spawned and chained 2 cooldowns, spiking to 1500+ DPS for the duration of the cooldowns.

    Tank maintained aggro.

    TLDR: Get a better tank. One with Intercept if necessary.


    NOTE: One major thing that people don't understand about Rogue BD and NB builds is that they pull more aggro than "other" classes. All the DPS, and therefore threat, is from the player.

    The Warrior pulling 1300? 300 DPS is from the kitty. The player is only pulling 1k dps worth of threat. The Mage spiking to 1600? 200-500 dps is from the pet.

    The BD-variant pulling 1300? Every ounce of that threat is from the player. Therefore the Rogue pulls more threat, and pulls aggro.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    For melee DPS, I'm a big fan of including Riftstalker in the build.

    20 points gets you:

    Stalker Phase (+15% damage, -50% threat generation) up almost 2/3 of the time with use of 2 shifts
    +15% Critical Hit chance, permanent with good use of 4 shifts
    +15% Attack Power, permanent
    plus, on any boss knock-back or teleport, you're the first melee back to the fight

    I think that's comparable benefit to what you get with similar investment in NB or Sin.

    15 in NB: +15% damage on finishers and combo builders, +5% damage on proc, +3% damage (or +9% non-physical damage or get both for 18 points)

    17 in Sin: +5% Crit, +5% Crit on proc, +10% damage on crit, +4% physical damage, +20% crit damage

    With my current NB/RS/Sin build, I have all of those benefits with 28 NB / 20 RS / 18 Sin.
    Last edited by Silatt; 05-16-2011 at 09:38 AM.

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