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Thread: Rogue combp points should work like warrior attack points.

  1. #16
    Telaran
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    My apologies for so many posts here. I got called away for a few minutes and when I came back could not edit my previous post.

    Here is my conclusion:

    I think that we all agree that we would like to see changes to the system, and it looks like a lot of people have a lot of different and good ideas. I'm just a biased and strong advocate for my own ideas.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marne View Post
    I'll follow up my above post and say that, from a design perspective, one of the challenges that Trion has is that they need to create encounters that strike a balance between each of those mechanics.

    They can do this by just making every class be able to do everything (the easy and boring way), or they can do this by providing content in varieties and quantities that reward well-rounded groups (as opposed to stacking a single class).
    giving Cp on yourself but making them vanish after 5 sec of not attacking would in no way make it easier or more boring... well it would in SOME situation, but in others it would in fact make it much more challenging i bet, so in that regard it would about equal out just in a different way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iansanity View Post
    It was even funnier in certain other games; where a leather clad cow (heh heh) then shapeshifts into a completely unarmoured bear-tank... but no one really minded that... because it's maaaagic (whereas a mage isn't?!).

  3. #18
    Rift Chaser DeadlySmurf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marne View Post
    In a narrow light that sounds bad, but I think it fails to adequately address the real issue.

    Rogues have a mechanic that is about building up to a finisher. We have a self-regenerating resource pool, meaning whatever level of DPS we generate we can sustain indefinitely.

    I'm fine with the scenario you describe - Casters have an expendable resource pool, but until that pool is expended they can do a high level of consistent dps with no penalty for switches.
    Any mage or cleric that is running out of mana has some serious problems with their build, especially mage. Mana is almost a non-issue, there are plenty of abilities that regen a large portion of it. The only advantage rogues have here is that they don't have to use abilities to replenish energy.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GummiBear View Post
    giving Cp on yourself but making them vanish after 5 sec of not attacking would in no way make it easier or more boring... well it would in SOME situation, but in others it would in fact make it much more challenging i bet, so in that regard it would about equal out just in a different way.
    Here is my challenge to that, and I am curious to hear your thoughts to my challenge.

    I think that by doing this you open up the ability to build 5 points on one target, and then open on a second target with a big 5-point finisher. I think that the cost of permitting us to do that is that Finisher damage has to be reduced across the board and CP building abilities have to be increased.

    The common rebuttal will probably be, "But Warriors can do that already."

    They can, but I don't think that the solution is to give us a system like theirs. The solution that I like is one that balances that for Warriors by reducing the efficacy of their 3 AP Finishers and slightly increases their AP generating abilities.

    The balance for Rogues will be to make CPs worth more in Finisher calculation. I will propose 2 ways to do this. The first is the one I have been suggesting all along, and the second is a novel idea I just came up with.

    1) Give CP better scaling than AP. 3 Rogue CPs should be more valuable than 3 Warrior APs because CPs are more volatile. A Rogue using a 3 CP ability should do slightly more damage than a Warrior using a 3 AP ability. A Rogue using a 5 CP ability should do significantly more damage than a Warrior using a 3 AP ability because the Rogue incurred a much greater risk for building those 5 CPs. This could be balanced by slightly reducing the damage of CP generating abilities for Rogues.

    2) Give Rogue abilities static CP costs. This would probably require adding more finishers for Rogues. The idea is that as you build CPs you open the option to use stronger Finishers. So for Marks, let's pretend that Rapid Fire Shot costs 5 CPs, Deadeye Shot costs 3 CPs, and Hasted Shot costs 1 or 2 CPs. When fighting you build up 5 CPs. You now have a choice - do you want the instant high damage burst of a single Rapid Fire Shot, or do you use Deadeye Shot and then Hasted Shot? Or maybe you decide to use a Hasted Shot to bleed off a few CPs so that you can use your impressive 5 CP finisher in 2 more GCDs to finish off your kill target.

    Those are my thoughts about how I feel Rogues should be different that Warriors, and two suggestions for implementing those changes. The big difference is this:

    Warriors: High dps AP generating abilities. "Safe" AP mechanic. Slightly lower AP Finisher damage. Moderately flat/stable damage curve

    Rogues: Lower dps CP generating abilities. Volatile CP mechanic. Very high CP Finisher damage. Very spiky/volatile damage curve

    And then looking at both over a long fight the average of the peaks and valleys of the Rogue's damage would work out to be equal to the average of the Warrior's flatter damage.
    Last edited by Marne; 05-12-2011 at 05:50 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xney View Post
    I play both a rogue and a warrior and this is definitely one of the dumb things about rogues in how they work.
    I totally agree with the OP. Warriors just have it way too good compared to rogues. They can swap targets constantly without worrying about losing combo points and they are much less energy starved compared to rogues.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chomag View Post
    Those americans...Everytime there is a blackout, they all start luting.

  6. #21
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    A linear copy of WoW?

    Warhammer had the system that the OP described. You build combo points on yourself, stealth can be used in combat, and the combo points faded after a certain amount of time.

    Then again, from a design perspective, Warhammer definetely deserves some credit. While the game was rushed, creating horrible imbalances, terrible content problems, etc, etc, it still has the merit of having a design goal of "What will this class be doing and what does it need to accomplish its basic role?", which is a design concept that I think is lost somewhat here...

  7. #22
    Rift Disciple Cactuschef's Avatar
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    I don't know about making combo points completely independent of the target, but I do think there aught to be more ways to utilize unspent combo points. there are a few talents that do this already but they're largely lackluster or too far down a given tree to get unless that happens to be your main soul. one ability I think Rift really aught to steal from WoW is some form of "slice and dice", with different effects for each soul, and located relatively low in each tree. something that allows you to consume your existing combo points, without having to be in range of the target, to give yourself a buff.

  8. #23
    Rift Chaser pacoxi's Avatar
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    If I wanted to play a warrior I would have rolled one, sorry. Part of your job as a rogue is to know when its safe to build a 5 pointer and when you need you need to finish early. If you dont have enough time to build 5 pointers, things are dieing really fast and your personal dps being the highest or lowest really doesn't matter because you are probably fighting trash. If something like a boss is about to die, you need to start considering if you should keep building 5 pointers or not because you might end up wasting combo points.

    The warrior system is a very dumbed down version of the rogue one. It also has different uses. Warriors get a lot of their self buffs from their "finishers", rogues get theirs from combo builders. I don't want to have to burn through 9 points to get all of my self buffs up and running.

  9. #24
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    I know what to do, you can roll a warrior. There are 4 class so 4 mechanic, now we'd be down to 3 mechanic for 4 class. What's next making all the class the same? I know a game that's doing that and I'm not playing it.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marne View Post
    Here is my challenge to that, and I am curious to hear your thoughts to my challenge.

    I think that by doing this you open up the ability to build 5 points on one target, and then open on a second target with a big 5-point finisher. I think that the cost of permitting us to do that is that Finisher damage has to be reduced across the board and CP building abilities have to be increased.

    The common rebuttal will probably be, "But Warriors can do that already."

    They can, but I don't think that the solution is to give us a system like theirs. The solution that I like is one that balances that for Warriors by reducing the efficacy of their 3 AP Finishers and slightly increases their AP generating abilities.

    The balance for Rogues will be to make CPs worth more in Finisher calculation. I will propose 2 ways to do this. The first is the one I have been suggesting all along, and the second is a novel idea I just came up with.

    1) Give CP better scaling than AP. 3 Rogue CPs should be more valuable than 3 Warrior APs because CPs are more volatile. A Rogue using a 3 CP ability should do slightly more damage than a Warrior using a 3 AP ability. A Rogue using a 5 CP ability should do significantly more damage than a Warrior using a 3 AP ability because the Rogue incurred a much greater risk for building those 5 CPs. This could be balanced by slightly reducing the damage of CP generating abilities for Rogues.

    2) Give Rogue abilities static CP costs. This would probably require adding more finishers for Rogues. The idea is that as you build CPs you open the option to use stronger Finishers. So for Marks, let's pretend that Rapid Fire Shot costs 5 CPs, Deadeye Shot costs 3 CPs, and Hasted Shot costs 1 or 2 CPs. When fighting you build up 5 CPs. You now have a choice - do you want the instant high damage burst of a single Rapid Fire Shot, or do you use Deadeye Shot and then Hasted Shot? Or maybe you decide to use a Hasted Shot to bleed off a few CPs so that you can use your impressive 5 CP finisher in 2 more GCDs to finish off your kill target.

    Those are my thoughts about how I feel Rogues should be different that Warriors, and two suggestions for implementing those changes. The big difference is this:

    Warriors: High dps AP generating abilities. "Safe" AP mechanic. Slightly lower AP Finisher damage. Moderately flat/stable damage curve

    Rogues: Lower dps CP generating abilities. Volatile CP mechanic. Very high CP Finisher damage. Very spiky/volatile damage curve

    And then looking at both over a long fight the average of the peaks and valleys of the Rogue's damage would work out to be equal to the average of the Warrior's flatter damage.
    that is why the CP's should fade after 5sec's not attacking meaning yes you could start with a powerful finisher on a target... but you got to be VERY quick since well you need to first find your target, and then approach to melee as well (meaning stealthing over to him is totally out of question), or you would have to use a ranged finisher which already are weaker than the melee ones

    Quote Originally Posted by pacoxi View Post
    If I wanted to play a warrior I would have rolled one, sorry. Part of your job as a rogue is to know when its safe to build a 5 pointer and when you need you need to finish early. If you dont have enough time to build 5 pointers, things are dieing really fast and your personal dps being the highest or lowest really doesn't matter because you are probably fighting trash. If something like a boss is about to die, you need to start considering if you should keep building 5 pointers or not because you might end up wasting combo points.

    The warrior system is a very dumbed down version of the rogue one. It also has different uses. Warriors get a lot of their self buffs from their "finishers", rogues get theirs from combo builders. I don't want to have to burn through 9 points to get all of my self buffs up and running.
    ... try play a rogue tank... you have to burn through at the very least 9CP to get your 3 main buffs up (Rift Guard, guarded Steel and False Blade) at about half duration...13 if you want full duration (since RG absorb more than enough to get "killed off" even at 3pt and that is the only change to a higher CP RG
    Last edited by GummiBear; 05-13-2011 at 03:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iansanity View Post
    It was even funnier in certain other games; where a leather clad cow (heh heh) then shapeshifts into a completely unarmoured bear-tank... but no one really minded that... because it's maaaagic (whereas a mage isn't?!).

  11. #26
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    tbh I'd generally be against moving them to being built on the rogue, we don't really need it.

    Though it would help if we had some more skills like rift scavenge to more of the souls and such but also add in extra effects.

    For example an adjusted rift scavenge:

    Whenever your current Combo Point target is killed, unused Combo Points are refunded, healing you for 2/4/6% of your Maximum Health per Combo Point. When ever your Combo Point target is changed while combo points are on a living enemy your unused Combo Points are refunded, healing you for 0.1/0.25/0.5% of your health per combo point. This does not work if your combo points are shifted to a new target.

    Blade dancers combat culmination would be adjusted in a similiar way and 2 other souls should get a similiar ability, such as marksman/ranger and bard, the mm/ranger one would boost your attacks maybe giving you an AP boost if points go unused at a greater rate if the enemy dies.

    The bard one would give something out to the entire team maybe a combo of all the other unused combo point moves so if the bards combo points go unused they heal, boost the attack and regain everyones power/mana/energy but at a much smaller amount than the siingular ones would give the rogues.

    That way switching targets would still be a dps loss but you'd gain something to make up for it, be it extra health, extra energy or more effective set up on the next target.

    The other option of course is to give more multipoint generating abilities or target switch abilities. A few more 5 point generators would help get set up or such and more target switch abilities (rift one would have to be altered of course to make it more worthwhile if this happened) would allow less wasted points.

  12. #27
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    tbh I'd generally be against moving them to being built on the rogue, we don't really need it.

    Though it would help if we had some more skills like rift scavenge to more of the souls and such but also add in extra effects.

    For example an adjusted rift scavenge:

    Whenever your current Combo Point target is killed, unused Combo Points are refunded, healing you for 2/4/6% of your Maximum Health per Combo Point. When ever your Combo Point target is changed while combo points are on a living enemy your unused Combo Points are refunded, healing you for 0.1/0.25/0.5% of your health per combo point. This does not work if your combo points are shifted to a new target.

    Blade dancers combat culmination would be adjusted in a similiar way and 2 other souls should get a similiar ability, such as marksman/ranger and bard, the mm/ranger one would boost your attacks maybe giving you an AP boost if points go unused at a greater rate if the enemy dies.

    The bard one would give something out to the entire team maybe a combo of all the other unused combo point moves so if the bards combo points go unused they heal, boost the attack and regain everyones power/mana/energy but at a much smaller amount than the siingular ones would give the rogues.

    That way switching targets would still be a dps loss but you'd gain something to make up for it, be it extra health, extra energy or more effective set up on the next target.

    The other option of course is to give more multipoint generating abilities or target switch abilities. A few more 5 point generators would help get set up or such and more target switch abilities (rift one would have to be altered of course to make it more worthwhile if this happened) would allow less wasted points.
    This guy gets it. I don't want to be a clone of an existing mechanic. Improve our unique mechanic instead.

  13. #28
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    The current system is ~fine~ but it is a moderate hindrance.


    For PvE, it's fantastic and encourages the rogue to focus on a single target, this applies for PvP somewhat as well.

    For PvP, the benefit of the system that allows you to build CP on yourself is this: When a Rogue is allowed to simply hit a couple of targets, he can move in on a target of opportunity to have a much larger effect on contact. But at the same time, if he can't get to his target within 10-15s, he won't have any combo points. This encourages teams to actually try to control a Rogue and his mechanic rather than just let him kill or nearly kill a target, then kill him.

    Currently, Rogues feel to have an advantage only when first opening on a target from stealth. Rogues, especially melee, typically fall back, restealth, and then move to a new target. 2-3 CPB opener means 1-2 GCD's to hit the magic 5. If you can't use your opener on a target, it takes you 3-5 GCD's to create 5 combo points.

    Why this system is a problem: CPB's don't create a large enough effect by themselves to make an impact in a battle. This problem is just starting to be resolved with new talents like Deadly Dance.


    Summary: Rogues would be more of a constant threat that you can't ignore on the battlefield if AT LEAST one soul offered this type of mechanic. The current mechanic works fine for Rogues focused on Targeted Strikes and restealthing, but it really disables a Rogue as being a primary source of DPS for a group in a situation where you will be switching targets rapidly.


    P.S. Don't interpret this is a buff Rogues post, my experience with Rogues has shown that this system is much funner to play with and against. Any vets to both Warhammer and WoW would probably agree.

  14. #29
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    They can, but I don't think that the solution is to give us a system like theirs. The solution that I like is one that balances that for Warriors by reducing the efficacy of their 3 AP Finishers and slightly increases their AP generating abilities.
    That would be a big increase in our DPS with the way SLI works. Would make it even more powerful as missing one finisher wouldn't be that big of a deal.


    If you attack one target and switch to another, do the CP's you build on the first target stay? If not, why not just implement something like that, but with a timer on them. So if you don't switch back within 5 seconds, for example, you lose on CP and you lose another for every 5 seconds you don't switch back.

    Would give you the ability to switch targets with the tank (even though aggro shouldn't be an issue in aoe pulls, I NEVER tab target in this game). As others have said, it's a strategy thing figuring out when to use your finisher. If you do miss a finisher and the mob dies first, so what? Your dps will be a little bit smaller on the parser and you'll look bad? The mob died, does it matter?

    Only reason that would really matter is PvP, not PvE. Using your finisher at 4 instead of 5 and giving them another second to get off a heal, dmg reduction, CC could be the difference between killing or getting killed.
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