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Thread: [Saboteur] What the Saboteur soul should be v.1!

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    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Default [Saboteur] What the Saboteur soul should be v.1!

    Since it seems that the developers of this game only know how to nerf stuffs instead of actually try to make them better, I decided to show them what could be done with the Saboteur soul. After the brilliant job they did destroying it, you would think they would try to do something, buff it little by little. Anyway this tree offers things that are much needed by both the soul and the Calling. Enjoy!

    Saboteur

    0-Points
    =====

    Adhesive Bomb - Changed - CD increased to 30seconds. Being able to slow down an entire team every 15 seconds is too good and too hard to balance around. Plus because of this short CD, Trion thinks of this ability as a defensive ability when it should be considered more as utility than anything, especially when you consider that Saboteur is not movement-based.

    Blast Charge - All Charges Changed - The bread and butter of the soul. Now, the problem with those is that when coupled to Detonate, they close the soul to any synergy with the others dps souls of the Calling. However a very simple tweak make them a valid option as a combo builder for any other soul.
    => All Charges on a target detonates when a single target Rogue Finishers is used on this target.
    A simple tweak, a world of possibilities!

    Detonate - Removed - Not needed anymore.

    2-Points
    =====

    Fragmentation Bomb - Changed - It is understandable why a AoE ability would be so low in the root, with the Blast Charges a Saboteur has already a lot of burst, however Saboteur desperately need a faster way than Spike Charges and Chemical Bomb to deals damage between charges.
    => Fragmentation Bomb: Hurls a bomb at the enemy, dealing weapon plus [Medium Damage] Physical damage to the enemy and [Low Damage] to up to 10 enemies around it.

    4-Points
    =====

    Track Constructs - Unchanged - Flavor ability

    8-Points
    =====

    Spike Charge - Changed - The fact that charge regulate the potency of the the DoT pretty much kills this ability, especially when you considers the burst nature of the Saboteur. It pretty much make it a waste of energy to use it at less than 5cp. Saboteur could use some window of opportunity where they don't have to necessarily get a charge to 5, and they also some regular source of damage which is clearly lacking outside of Chemical Bomb. A great change would be to have the number of Spike charge affect the duration of the DoT.
    => Spike Charge: Attaches a Charge onto the enemy, causing the enemy to bleed for weapon plus [Low Damage] Physical damage over 5 seconds per Charge when detonated. Up to 5 Charges can be attached onto the enemy. Energy is refunded if the Rogue is out of combat. Awards 1 Combo Point.
    This make you able to decide how long the DoT will last and will help with the lack of constance of dps.

    10-Points
    =====

    Chemical Bomb - Removed, included in a talent that enhance Adhesive Bomb. Yes, I know, Chemical Bomb is a cool name, but we don't need so much Bombs.

    => Instead: Incriminate - Unchanged - Nice little tool

    12-Points
    =====

    Shrapnel Charge - Changed - Deals [Low Damage] instead of [Medium Damage]. WoW learned something with WotLK in that making AoE as powerful as or close to single target abilities is a terrible, terrible idea. Also this should be the primary way of dealing AoE damage for the Saboteur.

    14-Points
    =====

    Caltrop Charge - Removed - The saboteur already has an efficient and powerful way to slow down targets. This charge is
    a mere placeholder for a much more needed ability for Saboteurs. As any Sab who pvp'ed or any Rogue too, when someone target you, you are dead if you don't get away. Here is what Saboteurs need if they have an enemy going their way.

    Harden Protection
    No Cost
    Instant CD: 1min
    The Rogue use its protection to the maximum of its potential. Whenever the Rogue is hit by a melee attack, the damage the Rogue receive is reduced by 5% for 10 seconds, stacking up to 15%, this effect cannot last more than 30 seconds.

    This is what not only Saboteur needs, but also the Rogue Calling in general to mitigate the absurd amount of damage they are exposed in melee range with Leather armor. For 12 points, any Rogue specs that really need the mitigation and want some utility will be able to choose between the RS soul and the Saboteur soul.

    16-Points
    =====

    Debilitating Trap - Unchanged - Traps go nicely with the sub-theme of staying still and withstanding the damage. And this one can be useful as a general debuffer.

    18-Points
    =====

    Splinter Charge - Removed - Leave debuffing to Support, Saboteurs should be focused on building their burst, and be focused on mitigating incoming damage.

    => Instead:

    Destructive Charge
    30 Energy
    Instant CD: 2min
    Attaches a Charge onto the enemy, dealing weapon plus [High Damage] Physical damage per Charge when detonated and making all other charges attached to the target become Critical Hits. Up to 5 Charges can be attached onto the enemy. Energy is refunded if the Rogue is out of combat. Awards 1 Combo Point.

    A DPS CD that should be when you have the most beneficial buffs on you. You will only have one at a time on a target, however, what matters is when you use your Finisher, and see all the pretty Crits spell doom to the boss or your target.

    20-Point
    =====

    Concussion Charge - Removed - Does not belong on a Charge, now that Charges have more an aspect of damaging combo builders with versatile roles.

    Concussion Bomb
    40 Energy
    Instant CD: 1min
    Hurls a bomb that shock enemies within the area, causing them to be incapacitated, any damage will remove the effect. Lasts 8 seconds.

    24-Points
    =====

    Deadly Accuracy
    No Cost
    Instant CD:30 seconds
    The next Finisher ability used by the Rogue will be a Critical Hit. Last 10 seconds.

    28-Points
    =====

    Embers Charge - Removed - Again leave debuffing to support, this add more confusion to the Saboteur than anything.

    Camouflage
    40 Energy
    2 Seconds CD: 3min
    The Rogue fade into its surrounding, becoming untargetable, dropping all Threat, and becoming immune to any damage for 3 seconds.

    Another Defensive CD, protects Saboteurs against Ranged as well as Melee. It is high enough in the tree to make it majorily reserved to Saboteurs. This will also be a great tool when trying to escaping the enemy or try to dodge a projectile coming at you, or to finally drop this channel from the Warlock (yes Trion, this is BD right there that you can't stop a channel when LoSing the channeler!). Could be a reason for someone to go deeper in the tree for PvP or manage threat in PvE.

    32-Points
    =====

    Booby Trap - Unchanged - Again traps are nice tool, that actually fit what the Saboteur should be.

    40-Points
    =====

    Choking Gas Bomb - Unchanged - I wouldn't dare! Also that's really the only defense you have against a caster.

    44-Points
    =====

    Last Stand - Unchanged - Great ability, that fit perfectly the subtheme of Saboteur being able to withstand an enemy attack and actually letting them get close. It also opens possible synergy with a good healer that would help you survive a Last Stand and let you do it all over again .

    51-Points
    =====

    Rapid Setup - Unchanged - Again nice ability, could be lower in the root as it is such a massive boost for the spec, but it gives a reason for people to go pure Sab.

    ==========================

    Tier 1
    • Nimble Fingers - Unchanged
    • Long Range Bombing - Fused with Remote Clipping
    Tier 2
    • Improved Blast Charge - Unchanged
    • *NEW* Potent Detonation: Increase the damage of your weapon Finisher by 2/4/6/8/10%.
    • Barbed Trap - Removed - Totally useless to the spec
    • Instead => Commando Resolve: No Cost - Instant - CD:90 seconds: Remove all harmful effects from the Rogue.
    Tier 3
    • Combat Survival - Unchanged - Great survival talent
    • Increased Explosive Power - Unchanged
    • Silent Setup - Unchanged - Needed for leveling
    • Entangling Trap - Unchanged

    Tier 4
    • Improved Detonate - Removed
    • => Instead Improved Adhesive Bomb: Your Adhesive Bomb also contaminates the area, dealing [Medium Damage] weapon damage over 8 seconds to 10 enemies within the are.
    • Improved Spike Charge - Changed - Now requires 3 points for the same effects.
    • *NEW* Tactics: Whenever the rogue is hit by an attack, the Rogue receive 1/3/5% less damage for 5 seconds, and has its movement speed reduced by 1/3/5%. Stacks up to 2 times.
    • Time Bomb - Unchanged

    Tier 5
    • Charge Booster - I hate this talent, it force you to go 51 to make it actually worth something, it is still necessary to the spec dps, but it could definitively use a little buff
    • Annihilation Bomb - Unchanged
    • Bomd Specialist - Unchanged
    • Improved Entangling Trap - Unchanged
    Tier 6
    • Residual Shrapnel - Unchanged - Indispensable for AoE specs.
    • Demolition Specialist - Unchanged - Fun little talent
    • The Trapper - Changed - => Your Traps are now Instant.
    • Carpet Bombing - Unchanged - Now that Sabs have an actual Bomb that can do damage, this will be useful.

    Tier 7
    • Land Mines - Unchanged - Fun, make you want to have your enemies comes to beat your face !
    Last edited by ControlBlue; 05-04-2011 at 05:06 PM.
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

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    Rift Disciple Mondays's Avatar
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    None of that is needed. Want to fix sab? Change charge booster back, increase base DMG by 5%.

    All other changes will op or up the soul.
    Briarqueue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondays View Post
    None of that is needed. Want to fix sab? Change charge booster back, increase base DMG by 5%.

    All other changes will op or up the soul.
    It was way too good before, it would have to be changed to maybe 50% what it used to be, 1.5 charges per stack.

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    OR, each debuff charge should be buffed significantly, like phys damage increased to 10% armor reduction changed to 20% ect, but have a 1 minute blocker added to the mob.

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    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Or leave the damage as it is, add more single target capabilities,

    and make us last less than a few seconds when we are focused. The process of building charges is so slow and require such a commitment that we should be able to at least withstand attacks while we are building our damage.

    The devs thinks Sabs are supposed to kite, which is crazy since we don't any movement increasing powers and MM and BD already have the market.

    The damage and utility we have is ok, what we really need is some staying power!

    Also, leave debuffs to Support souls, we are here to kill ****, and with the long process that we have to deals damage including in it the need to debuff our target before we can kill efficiently will only make us weaker.
    Last edited by ControlBlue; 05-04-2011 at 06:22 PM.
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple Mondays's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stimuz View Post
    It was way too good before, it would have to be changed to maybe 50% what it used to be, 1.5 charges per stack.
    6 second cast time, 2k dmg. Still under performing mages and warriors. Only one survivability passive. You think that's OP? I call that balance.
    Briarqueue

  7. #7
    Shadowlander Zuer's Avatar
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    If this was facebook I would click the **** out of the like button. All of these changes aren't for everybody. But that's just cause some people just want the old sabo back. I really like that there's some defensive/suvivabilty skills in the mix there. I think most of the rogue community would really enjoy this tree if Trion ever tested it and shot it live.

    The almost complete lack of synergy with other Soul trees is ridiculous as it stands right now. 1 talent that perhaps does something like "Weapon attacks that connect have a 100% chance to attach a charge to the target. This effect last for 15 seconds and has a 2min Cd".

    Overall, very well put and thought out. I hope they use your ideas here as a template for a saboteur build that doesn't suck. (I could have said blow. Pun pun pun)

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    Rift Disciple Mondays's Avatar
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    The fact that you don't think charges synergies with other souls pretty much proves to me that you don't know how to play a Sab post 1.1 effectively. You're just stripping it clean and shorttily gluing bells and whistles too it. When I get home from work I'll tell you why nearly every single suggestion you made is dumb.
    Briarqueue

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    Soulwalker Gwynemoore's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Monday on this. However, if they truely want to make a start with sabs, i suggest a couple of fixes.

    1st, get rid of the double jeopardy with charges. They either HIT the 1st time you fling them, or they miss. This crap of stacking 5 charges, already going through the hit/miss check, then have them go through yet ANOTHER hit/miss check with detonate is effing absurd (not to mention, sabs , as monday pointed out in the thread i asked about this in, are the ONLY soul to have to deal wih this).

    2nd, charges should NOT be classified as poison. The poor design, that not only do we have to deal with the double jeopardy charges, but a stack of 5 charges can be purged with a single cleanse.

    Finally, either make the charges a ranged type attack, or melee. I find it absurd they decided to make charges a poison and are only buffed through the assassin poison buff (20+ points in the *** tree)??


    I feel if they start with these three items first, i do not believe we would need a revamp. These 3 items, if addressed, would increase the damage output considerably.

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    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondays View Post
    The fact that you don't think charges synergies with other souls pretty much proves to me that you don't know how to play a Sab post 1.1 effectively. You're just stripping it clean and shorttily gluing bells and whistles too it. When I get home from work I'll tell you why nearly every single suggestion you made is dumb.
    It better be REALLY good reasons because from what I see changing the Charges and making them works with all Rogue Finishers is the right step in opening Saboteurs to the other trees. If you are talking about the loss of Concussive Charges, Embers Charges, and Caltrop CHarges, you have to realize that those are just slow, unreliable, and easily counterable(dispelss) CC/utilities.

    By removing them and putting instead a reliable CC in Concussive Bomb, and with defensive CDs that enable you to not have to flee and actually build your offense, you create a much more focused Saboteur that still has the utility needed.

    @Gwyn: All your suggestions are without a doubt good, however increasing the damage output is NOT the solution considering the burst nature of the Saboteur. However I do agree that the way charges are implemented as poisons and with a double hit/miss check is troublesome, but what is really troublesome is our staying power, it is where the Saboteur could really shine in itself or in the Calling, and the way that show the most potential.

    Also, thanks Zuer, this is truly appreciated . Now for the people who actually like those changes and would want them to be at least considered by the dev team (which seems to be obviously about what to do with Saboteur because if any of them had played one they would realize the need for defensive CD, the unreliability of Adhesive Bomb as a defensive tool and its absurb power on a 15 seconds CD), rate the thread, direct people from other threads to here, put it in your sig, and just talk about it. The devs are humans like you and I, and whether you are paid or not to come up with it a good idea is a good idea, and in the case of the Saboteur this is the only way the Saboteur can go without becoming another OP One-shot problem!
    Last edited by ControlBlue; 05-05-2011 at 01:54 AM.
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

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