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Thread: Clarification needed on Rogue tanking

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    Rift Disciple Kilvorian's Avatar
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    Default Clarification needed on Rogue tanking

    So I was in a rifting group today and actually got booted and ignored by a person because he thought I was wrong on how tanking in general and a particular rogue tanking "trick" he apperantly uses works. SO I am here to try to clarify if I was indeed the one who was wrong here.

    First is the Defer death scatter the shadows idea. I have tested it and to my knowledge all scatter the shadows does when using it at the end of defer death is extend the time before you take the defer death damage by 2 seconds. He claims to use the combo in greenscale on bosses and when he does it he takes 3k-5k damage afterwards... which makes no sense to me since scatter the shadows is a damage immunity not a damage reducer.

    Secondly is a general tanking question. The toughness cap for t1 t2's and Raids currently is 50, 100, and 150 as far as I know. Going over 150 toughness (again as far as I know) serves no additional benefit as you cant have a crit hit you for LESS then a normal hit. You can only bring it down to 100%. So getting a toughness of say 200+ is pointless and wasteful at this point in the game. He claims that the raiding toughness cap is 200 and going over the toughness cap WILL actually reduce your crit damage below 100%.

    So who is right me or him? I dont want a speculative answer either. I want a definitive this is the way it works with no if's and's or buts about it. So if anyone has hard proof one way or the other.. or a moderator can answer that would be great!

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    Sez
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilvorian View Post
    First is the Defer death scatter the shadows idea. I have tested it and to my knowledge all scatter the shadows does when using it at the end of defer death is extend the time before you take the defer death damage by 2 seconds. He claims to use the combo in greenscale on bosses and when he does it he takes 3k-5k damage afterwards... which makes no sense to me since scatter the shadows is a damage immunity not a damage reducer.
    Currently, Scatter the shadows does not block Defer Death damage. I have died to prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilvorian View Post
    Secondly is a general tanking question. The toughness cap for t1 t2's and Raids currently is 50, 100, and 150 as far as I know. Going over 150 toughness (again as far as I know) serves no additional benefit as you cant have a crit hit you for LESS then a normal hit. You can only bring it down to 100%. So getting a toughness of say 200+ is pointless and wasteful at this point in the game. He claims that the raiding toughness cap is 200 and going over the toughness cap WILL actually reduce your crit damage below 100%.
    Hit cap got raised for River of souls to 225, so toughness might be 175.. I don't know actually, but for greenscake-walk, its 150.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilvorian View Post
    So who is right me or him? I dont want a speculative answer either. I want a definitive this is the way it works with no if's and's or buts about it. So if anyone has hard proof one way or the other.. or a moderator can answer that would be great!
    It shouldn't be a matter of "who is right." That sounds a tat petty and childish.
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    for the defer death/scatter part the only way either will help is that scatter will remove 3 seconds of the damage from the defer death (if both used at the same time) you cannot however defer death then scatter the shadows to avoid any of the damage given back to you by defer.

    For the toughness, no you cannot reduce the critical damage below that of a normal hit, however I have heard some people state that the end raid bosses in places like gsb and ros 200 tough is used but can't confirm.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    you are right. you were talking to a tool and a total noob.

    no reason to use both scatter and defer death, they stack but the dmg you take the end of defer death is simply put, the dmg you take, if you use scatter then obviously for 3 seconds you take 0 dmg during defer death... absolutely no reason to use both at the same time. this guy is a noob. i also tank in greenscale and i keep my toughness as close to 150 as possible as there is no reason to go over this!
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    Soulwalker
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    Default uhh.. misunderstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
    you are right. you were talking to a tool and a total noob.

    no reason to use both scatter and defer death, they stack but the dmg you take the end of defer death is simply put, the dmg you take, if you use scatter then obviously for 3 seconds you take 0 dmg during defer death... absolutely no reason to use both at the same time. this guy is a noob. i also tank in greenscale and i keep my toughness as close to 150 as possible as there is no reason to go over this!
    First of all popping defer/scatter at the same time is beyond ******ed.... pop defer death and before its over use scatter. it blocks the majority of the damage not all.. I have calculated an exact number as its hard to tell how much damage you would have taken when all you can see is immune. But, I have had mobs that beat me for 2-3k hits approx every second and then using scatter at 9 seconds taken about 3-5k damage instead of say.. 20-30k dmg. To prove my point further.. when you take the damage from defer death Scatter is STILL active.. you are still immune to everything else, for some reason if the damage you took during the defer death is above a certain point you will still take SOME damage like I said i've seen between 3-5k. As a note on toughness.. there isn't really a reason not to have more toughness... but the GSB cap is in fact 200. The only boss that really matters for the cap however is LGS. Kilvorian dont bring your misunderstandings of what I said to the forum. As always, L2p your class and quit botting.

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    Soulwalker
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    Default Oh another note.

    Forgot to mention, I dont know whether they changed it or not with all their sneaky nerfs etc that Trion has become notorious for. Previously via ACT; mob dps with toughness significantly above cap and at cap we found that toughness beyond cap caused the average crit dmg to be less than the regular hits. This was tested using cleric and rogue tanks as well as multiple instances of it. Whether that is still the case. ^.^

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    Rift Disciple Kilvorian's Avatar
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    well nice to see you captivate... regardless youre obviously wrong in both aspects unless you have proof stating otherwise. and I am not the one that misunderstood what you said but regardless using scatter after defer death to try to negate defer death damage DOES NOT WORK. You still take all the damage that would have been dealt to you during Defer death. As the first reply to this thread stated. Also so far your the only one claiming that 200 toughness is needed in greenscale. Would be pretty dumb to make an instance that has 4 bosses at 150 toughness and 1 at 200 imo... even if it is the last boss thats what the dungeons toughness cap is set at... THE WHOLE DUNGEON not 4/5ths of it.
    Last edited by Kilvorian; 04-28-2011 at 12:45 PM.

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    The only "trick" I have seen has nothing to do with scatter the shadows, it is with Planar Refuge. You pop Defer Death then Planar Refuge, the Planar Refuge will lower the incoming damage by 30% then also lower the final damage when Defer Death wears off by another 30%. So this effect stacks twice giving you a 60% damage reduction. I have no idea what that guy was saying with Scatter the Shadows since it only lasts for 3 seconds and you can not be immune for when Defer Death wears off.

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    Rift Disciple Kilvorian's Avatar
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    you still seem to be quite the minority here captivate I suppose all these "bads" as you put it are wrong and your the only one who is right... explain to me how a damage immunity effect like scatter the shadows turns into a damage reduction effect when paired with defer death as you so state? Or perhaps someone else can further enlighten me as to where he is getting his crazy ideas.

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    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilvorian View Post
    you still seem to be quite the minority here captivate I suppose all these "bads" as you put it are wrong and your the only one who is right... explain to me how a damage immunity effect like scatter the shadows turns into a damage reduction effect when paired with defer death as you so state? Or perhaps someone else can further enlighten me as to where he is getting his crazy ideas.
    You're immune for 3s for the damage you would've taken during defer death. Defer death isn't just to let you last for 10 more seconds, it is possible to pop it to let your healers catch up and continue the fight.

    So, to recap: Scatter the Shadows does not prevent the damage you take at the end of the 10s for Defer Death, but it can lower the damage you take during defer death, and thus lower the hit Defer Death deals to you at the end.
    Last edited by StealthStalker; 04-28-2011 at 09:50 PM.

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    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
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    edit: double post, good job me.
    Last edited by StealthStalker; 04-28-2011 at 09:50 PM.

    Don't forget to support Dual Targeting in SWTOR and Prime Online.
    We didn't get it here, but perhaps we can help make the next games into what they should be.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilvorian View Post
    So I was in a rifting group today and actually got booted and ignored by a person because he thought I was wrong on how tanking in general and a particular rogue tanking "trick" he apperantly uses works. SO I am here to try to clarify if I was indeed the one who was wrong here.

    First is the Defer death scatter the shadows idea. I have tested it and to my knowledge all scatter the shadows does when using it at the end of defer death is extend the time before you take the defer death damage by 2 seconds. He claims to use the combo in greenscale on bosses and when he does it he takes 3k-5k damage afterwards... which makes no sense to me since scatter the shadows is a damage immunity not a damage reducer.

    Secondly is a general tanking question. The toughness cap for t1 t2's and Raids currently is 50, 100, and 150 as far as I know. Going over 150 toughness (again as far as I know) serves no additional benefit as you cant have a crit hit you for LESS then a normal hit. You can only bring it down to 100%. So getting a toughness of say 200+ is pointless and wasteful at this point in the game. He claims that the raiding toughness cap is 200 and going over the toughness cap WILL actually reduce your crit damage below 100%.

    So who is right me or him? I dont want a speculative answer either. I want a definitive this is the way it works with no if's and's or buts about it. So if anyone has hard proof one way or the other.. or a moderator can answer that would be great!
    You're correct.

    Let me repeat this, because it bears repeating.

    Defer Death + Scatter the Shadows DOES NOT WORK. I don't mean it doesn't work reliably. I don't mean it reduces damage. I mean Defer Death + Scatter the Shadows DOES NOT WORK.The damage from Defer Death is applied even if Scatter the Shadows is active. It basically punches right through your immunity and kills you (unless you somehow didn't take that much damage in 10 sec in the first place, in which case you didn't need to even think about popping Defer Death).

    In other news, fall damage also goes right through Scatter the Shadows.
    Last edited by Ampere; 04-28-2011 at 09:52 PM.
    Kashta, 50 Rogue / Gwythiant, 41 Cleric / Ampere, 37 Mage

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    .
    For the toughness, no you cannot reduce the critical damage below that of a normal hit, however I have heard some people state that the end raid bosses in places like gsb and ros 200 tough is used but can't confirm.
    My guild has been working under this assumption too -- that greenscale/aslbeth require 200, else getting ~220 from raid gear is kind of.. overkill.

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    Figured I'd add. On occasion, the damage tally defer death takes while under its effects are inaccurate to your favor.

    Some examples are the lasers in RD (normal) and the trap right near the entrance. Might not still work but you can pop defer death, click the item while getting bashed on by lasers and then get out of it fairly unscathed (1000~ or so damage).

    And no, Planer Refuge won't effect the final hit of Defer Death. These kind of effects cannot be mitigated. Its like falling damage - they've taken steps to ensure you can't avoid certain forms of damage. I've jumped into the gorge in Scarlet Gorge and hit slip away ;x no dice. Defer Death works - for 10 seconds. Then you die.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple Kilvorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StealthStalker View Post
    You're immune for 3s for the damage you would've taken during defer death. Defer death isn't just to let you last for 10 more seconds, it is possible to pop it to let your healers catch up and continue the fight.

    So, to recap: Scatter the Shadows does not prevent the damage you take at the end of the 10s for Defer Death, but it can lower the damage you take during defer death, and thus lower the hit Defer Death deals to you at the end.
    he is claiming he can pop scatter the shadows at the end of defer death to negate the majority of damage he would have taken from defer death. which is stupid and not true at all.

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