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Thread: State of te bard (Very detailed)

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    Default State of te bard (Very detailed)

    State of Bard (Very detailed)

    Table of Content:

    I) 5 man groups performance
    II) Raid Performance
    III) Skill Cap
    IV) Skill impact
    V) Scalability
    VI) Rotation
    VII) Conclusion
    VIII) Few possible suggestions to illustrate a point.


    I) As we all know Bard is a support class, as such they provide heals/dps/buffs/cc+utility, thus making calculating bard over all contribution very hard. However there is another very similar support set up in the game that we can compare to, chloro/archon build.

    1) Healing. I don’t think this is even a competitiona. Cloro archon heals so much they are capable of main healing while bards are Miles away from that. 1:0

    2) Dps. Both kinda blow from what I have seen on my parses chloros tend to be between 200 and 300 while bards are <200. Only way to do more dps for bard is to sac it is healing, which is counter productive to having support in first place. 2:0

    3) Buffs. I am not a big mage xpert so I might have missed something. Lets see buffs/debuffs break down.
    Bard: 5% crit, 62 ap/spell, 5% more healing, 5% less damage taken. 52 dex/str or int/wisdom., 5% more physical damage 7% more magical, 13% cost reduction
    Mage: 5% crit, 10% cost reduction, 500 armor, 5% phycial damge, 7% magical, 40 dex/str, 40 edurance ( that STACKS, with clerics or bard buffs) Then a few temporary buffs from what I saw like 10% damage from wild growth, 5% damage from volcanic stuff, and I am sure I missed some. Once we remove dupes we have:
    Bard 62ap/sp, 5% healing, 3% cost reduction
    Mage 500 armor, 40 endurance, temporary damage buffs

    From what I see they about even, but I know I missed some stuff on mage this was taken purely from zam and 5 min of playing with builds. Mages win again. 3:0

    4) CC/utility:
    a) cc, first of cc I barely needed outside maybe few t2 trash pulls. Here bard have a small advantage with sap + spam able 8 sec mez vs sheep. But honestly 1 cc is more then enough for any 5 man, and worthless in raids. So even if you have no other cc in the grp it will be enough, so even here.
    b) Utility:
    Bard: Verce of joy, Speed buff (for the cost of 13% cost reduction)
    Mage: Battle rez, dispel, purge…
    Don’t think this is even a competition here. 4:0

    Verdict: HORRID


    II) Raid performance is much trickier to assess for several reasons. For once method used in I doesn’t work since you very rarely see chloro/archon builds in raids, mostly 1 pure Archon. So question we can look at?
    1) Are bards used in raids? Answer is definitely yes.
    2) Are bards required in raids? I would say yes.
    3) Is there reason to bring more then 1 bard to the raid? No.
    So is there a problem with bards in raids? It all comes down to #3. Is that a problem, or is it normal fait of a buff class, same way as there no reason to bring more then 1 archon. Imho that is just fine there are 32 pve souls and 20 raid slots, exactly 1 slot allocated for 1 particular soul in that raid is not bad.

    Clearly this is opinion based and open for discussion, but the fact that is arguable means that bards are in a decent place when it come to raid spots.

    Verdict: FINE

    III) Skill cap. So how hard is it to play bard? How hard it is to make it perform as the close to optimal level? The answer is most definitely VERY little. This is one of the biggest face roll souls in the game atm, 10 min of practice and your motifs barely fall of, few days and never do. I don’t think anyone can argue well (key word: well, I know ppl can argue anything around here) that bards are very easy to play.
    Is that bad? Imho: yes, but I can see how a bunch of people love it for exact this reason. It allows them to faceroll and not deal with hassle of competing on dps or keeping people alive. This gives them least amount of responsibility and little to no blame. When was the last time you heard: We wiped coz this bard blows and didn’t do X?
    Verdict: HORRID (mine), Awesome(lot of people)

    IV) Skill Impact. This goes in tune with III. Lets look at how much difference between “good” bard and “bad” bard. Let say good have 100% motif uptime and never over-heals, while bad one has 85% motif uptime, only spasm heal and always over-heals. The over all difference between these 2 bards would be 200 dps. And that is extreme case. More often then not it would be much less <100 dps which is pretty much not noticeable even in 5 man.
    To me personally, this is a total downer. Why would I play a class that any noob will come and do almost as good of a job as me? But yet again we go back to III and some people love it for this exact reason.

    Verdict: HORRID (mine), Awesome(lot of people)


    V) Scalability. There is virtually none. The 4 things that actually do make a difference: Hit, Trinkets (which is getting a nerf, gg), Greater essences, MH weapon. In that order pretty much. 220 hit is easy as hell to get with just few items and runes, greater essences for for 2p a pop on AH… This leaves us with trinket and MH weapon, Where trinket well you need 2 farm 2 xperts until you get one, and MH weapons is the least important of the 4.
    How would you feel if you dps spec with t3 gear would do 20% more dps then fresh 50? It would blow but as it stands right now if fresh manages to get 220 hit (less if he specs into BD) then he can perform as 80% efficiency of t3 geared bard.

    Verdict: HORRID

    VI) Rotation. Before we move on lets define what in MY opinion qualities of good rotation. Lots of people will disagree and this goes back to my point at III. Good rotation offers choices, it requires to make decisions on the fly, requires watching timers (dots, buffs, cooldowns). Extreme case of this would Sin ranger build discussed on this forum, which requires watching 2 60 min buffs, 3 dots (one of them on 10 sec timer), 15 sec debuff, and positioning and pet management. This is very hard rotation and imho a bit too hard honestly, but it offers a lot of fun and possibility to shows your skill.
    Bard rotation is none of those. In raids 99% of the time you do cadience x2, heal Five times then refresh motifs, this is as dull as it gets. Damage finishers not needed, their dps is pathetic. Debuffs get over written in raid and should no be used.
    Granted my experience with support classes is limited due to mostly playing wow. But I have few friends who played EQ and according to them there were bad bard, good bards and OMFG how is that even possible bards. This game does not have this concept, it has (A bard) and (A waste of space if you cant even bard)

    Verdict: HORRID

    VII) Conclusion. From where I am standing bards are pretty deep in there. That said the bard problem is much deeper then people think, I saw few posts like increase cadience damage x2 and it will solve all the problems. No it wont, sure it will help but there was way to many issues to fix with 1 small change.

    Few thinks I think bards need in general terms:
    1) over all buff, across the board
    2) single target heal of some sort, with finisher or on cd or w/e but something, right now bard can barely help MH to keep tank alive vs hard hitting bosses.
    3) Cleanse. I mean common bards are support let them support let them take that part of MH shoulders, especially with 1 sec gdc in theory bard would be best dispeller in the game, about time to be best at something.
    4) Some sort of debuff worth keeping in raid environment, even if it small something like 2% damage over all.
    5) More options in finishers, sure seems like we have a lot but in reality single target one blows hard it barely hit harder then aoe one, 2 debuffs ones are useless in raids. So you have aoe damage and aoe heal… that is not a lot of options.

    VIII) Few things that could be done, this is more to illustrate the idea rather then giving exact way to solve a problem.
    1) Healing; Give single target damage finisher ability to heal for the damage on the target’s target, give option of dpsing while healing the tank. The finisher blows it could use a boost.
    2) Healing: Give a pure single target heal for 1200-1500, to help tank healing in 5 mans, it wont affect rading at all.
    3) Give bards 20-30 sec cd single target heal for ~1k to have some reactive ability.
    4) Motifs: for example order which they casted matters order A,B,C results in 60 sec 5% to stats buff same as before but 60 sec duration, while order C,B,A results in 3% damage done buff for 60sec, and boom all of a sudden keeping motifs became a bit harder but more fun and more interactive.
    5) Give bard scaling buff, like instead of 62ap/sp give 10% of bards ap/sp so that well geared bard actually buffs better.


    That is all thanks for reading, I just felt like contributing and putting most of the Bard issues in one place.
    Last edited by Deathfairy; 04-28-2011 at 08:34 AM.

  2. #2
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    Wrong in some areas. Noobs cannot perform well as bards in raids. You need someone to be switched on, able to adapt, keep up debuffs on multiple targets, know when to blow cooldowns and even when to time the heals (after soul fractures is normally a good start). Also have to know when to not have certain bard buffs up, and know generally how to play.

    In a raid a bard can and should bring a great deal of versatility, allowing options for the raidleader and helping with general healing and spike raidwide damage.

    A good bard with a decent set of greater and lesser essences will be able to make a considerable difference to a raid. A noob bard simply will not, they won't understand what is necessary or the timing of the various transitions etc.

    Your post isn't 'the state of the bard' it's more a 'why bards suck compared to mages'. I suggest you may want to reroll mage if that's truly your view.

    However, on the converse of that, just wanted to add that I do like your cleanse idea, not sure about a targetable one, perhaps some kind of rolling chance for cadence heals. Either way it's not a bad idea.
    Last edited by Picollus; 04-28-2011 at 08:49 AM.

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    A good summary, I just have one issue: Chloromancers are main healers. Bards are support. In a 5 man, one of the most popular builds for chloromancers is an even split between Chloro and Archon. This gives them all the healing that is required to keep pace with clerics, while also providing a large amount of group buffs/debuffs. The other popular build is Chloro/Warlock, which does not give the same amount of group buffs, but does result in the chloro doing higher personal DPS. I have numerous chloros on my server who can maintain 350 single target DPS in experts with t2 gear, while main/solo healing.

    Bard healing is fine where it is. The soul is not meant to be a healer. The issue is that they do not provide enough utility to be worth a slot in 5 mans. Other support souls are capable of dealing respectable DPS while also providing group/raid buffs, and bards cannot do this.

    The best change I've seen suggested would be to increase the damage of Cadence to triple what it is currently, while decreasing the healing talent to keep the healing amount similar to what it is now.

    This doesn't address the horrid state of buff stacking/overwriting, or that the motif system is awful, but it would be a start.

    <Ascendant> 13/13 Seastone Defiant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picollus View Post
    Wrong in some areas. Noobs cannot perform well as bards in raids. You need someone to be switched on, able to adapt, keep up debuffs on multiple targets, know when to blow cooldowns and even when to time the heals (after soul fractures is normally a good start). Also have to know when to not have certain bard buffs up, and know generally how to play.

    In a raid a bard can and should bring a great deal of versatility, allowing options for the raidleader and helping with general healing and spike raidwide damage.

    A good bard with a decent set of greater and lesser essences will be able to make a considerable difference to a raid. A noob bard simply will not, they won't understand what is necessary or the timing of the various transitions etc.

    Your post isn't 'the state of the bard' it's more a 'why bards suck compared to mages'. I suggest you may want to reroll mage if that's truly your view.

    However, on the converse of that, just wanted to add that I do like your cleanse idea, not sure about a targetable one, perhaps some kind of rolling chance for cadence heals. Either way it's not a bad idea.
    You are delusional. Debuffs - should bever be used by bard in raid pretty much ever. The only exception i can think of is prince where archon might need to stay on prince for 5% damage debuff, not sure exactly how it works.

    Your detention of a noob bard is apparently one that doesn't press any buttons. Even a 10 year old can keep 3-5 motifs up, if you tell him keep these 3 up. I dont see how any of this requires skill. You massively overestimate bards contribution to the raid but if you look back i did say in terms of raids bards are fine. (kind of).

    Hmm knowing when to time the heals? really it takes a GOOD bard to figure out what u need to heal after a raid wide aoe? The yet again this is raid scenario, bards aren't too bad of in that respect with pretty much always having 5 targets to heal they raid healing isn't that bad and with buffs affecting 20 people rather then 5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinadass View Post
    A good summary, I just have one issue: Chloromancers are main healers. Bards are support. In a 5 man, one of the most popular builds for chloromancers is an even split between Chloro and Archon. This gives them all the healing that is required to keep pace with clerics, while also providing a large amount of group buffs/debuffs. The other popular build is Chloro/Warlock, which does not give the same amount of group buffs, but does result in the chloro doing higher personal DPS. I have numerous chloros on my server who can maintain 350 single target DPS in experts with t2 gear, while main/solo healing.

    Bard healing is fine where it is. The soul is not meant to be a healer. The issue is that they do not provide enough utility to be worth a slot in 5 mans. Other support souls are capable of dealing respectable DPS while also providing group/raid buffs, and bards cannot do this.

    The best change I've seen suggested would be to increase the damage of Cadence to triple what it is currently, while decreasing the healing talent to keep the healing amount similar to what it is now.

    This doesn't address the horrid state of buff stacking/overwriting, or that the motif system is awful, but it would be a start.

    True and as i said these were my idea on what could be done, it is matter of where you want to take bard. They more of something, weather it is buffing utility healing or damage. These is no right answer, i just gave few idea's they were mostly centered on healing tho i agree. In the end it is up to Trion to figure where they see bard we can only suggest. I am sure you will get tons of different opinions on wether they should heal more dps more or buff more across the board.

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    To me, one of the biggest disadvantages to Bard is a lack of synergy with other rogue souls, along with the near necessity of taking 51 bard. But this, in general, is a problem throughout the rogue class. While 51 bard may not be required for raiding, it is the standard. The same for 51 RS for tanking. The synergy of the rogue souls is so lacking as to make customization of builds miniscule.

    The only fix I see to this would be a complete reworking of rogue souls, which will likely never happen. Ideally I would like to see 1 or 2 rogue souls completely replaced with ones that augment support and tank builds more so than what is available now. Perhaps merge Ranger/MM into one ranged soul and Sin/NB into one melee soul.

    The rogue class is spread too thin to be comparable to other classes with the same number of souls. When you have souls that focus on support, tanking, ranged dps and melee dps, you quickly run out of options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picollus View Post
    Wrong in some areas. Noobs cannot perform well as bards in raids. You need someone to be switched on, able to adapt, keep up debuffs on multiple targets, .
    OK you might a point here for multiple targets, i am not sure how in case of fight where you have to split dps, how well can archon keep the the debuffs up on all of them, in which case bard debuffs might come in handy, but really, second rate debuffer to fill in if archon cant get them all? Doesnt make me to happy. and limitied to a few fights only.

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    I have played EQ1 and Vanguard, both have similar type of Bard (both are from Sony) and the person behind the keybaord really do make difference. They are very dynamic class, always bringing more to group or raid.

    As the bard is in Rift, it's really dull to play (here i don't try to remove the utilities of the class). There not much skill needed, support class are usully hard to play as they require more skill, challenging class are fun to play, well for some people's.

    stuff i would like to see:

    - 2 min lenght motif
    - make Coda of restoration have a boost healing by 10% for every member that full life, so if only tank need a heal you have 140% going directly to him instead of been wasted
    - Make Fanfare with choice selection directly to the player's, so everyone select what they want
    - more buff that can stack with other's class
    - maybe a buff that give % of tempory HP that disapear after 30 sec or if the dmg greater then the amount of %

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    Hmm knowing when to time the heals? really it takes a GOOD bard to figure out what u need to heal after a raid wide aoe? The yet again this is raid scenario, bards aren't too bad of in that respect with pretty much always having 5 targets to heal they raid healing isn't that bad and with buffs affecting 20 people rather then 5.

    There is a vast difference between spamming heals whenever you have 5 CP and waiting, perhaps only a second or two, for the AoE you know is coming to hit Coda of Restoration.

    Noob bards do the former, good bards do the latter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazed59 View Post
    There is a vast difference between spamming heals whenever you have 5 CP and waiting, perhaps only a second or two, for the AoE you know is coming to hit Coda of Restoration.

    Noob bards do the former, good bards do the latter.
    Agreed that is definitely a situation where bard can make a difference with skill. But lets look at two things:
    1) how often do these situation come up? i can think of 2: Prince last and last boss in CC. out of what 50-60ish boss fights in rift?
    2) how much difference does it really make? 600 heal for 5 players that is 3k heal, with crit it is 3.8k or so. Can it make a difference in that case of people dying or not? Yes it can. Keep in mind if someone wasnt toped then you using it 2 seconds before the aoe is BETTER then wating because else they would be insta gibed.

    Is that all together really even come close to making a distinction between good and bad bards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    I) As we all know Bard is a support class, as such they provide heals/dps/buffs/cc+utility, thus making calculating bard over all contribution very hard. However there is another very similar support set up in the game that we can compare to, chloro/archon build.

    1) Healing. I don’t think this is even a competitiona. Cloro archon heals so much they are capable of main healing while bards are Miles away from that. 1:0

    2) Dps. Both kinda blow from what I have seen on my parses chloros tend to be between 200 and 300 while bards are <200. Only way to do more dps for bard is to sac it is healing, which is counter productive to having support in first place. 2:0

    3) Buffs. I am not a big mage xpert so I might have missed something. Lets see buffs/debuffs break down.
    Bard: 5% crit, 62 ap/spell, 5% more healing, 5% less damage taken. 52 dex/str or int/wisdom., 5% more physical damage 7% more magical, 13% cost reduction
    Mage: 5% crit, 10% cost reduction, 500 armor, 5% phycial damge, 7% magical, 40 dex/str, 40 edurance ( that STACKS, with clerics or bard buffs) Then a few temporary buffs from what I saw like 10% damage from wild growth, 5% damage from volcanic stuff, and I am sure I missed some. Once we remove dupes we have:
    Bard 62ap/sp, 5% healing, 3% cost reduction
    Mage 500 armor, 40 endurance, temporary damage buffs

    From what I see they about even, but I know I missed some stuff on mage this was taken purely from zam and 5 min of playing with builds. Mages win again. 3:0

    4) CC/utility:
    a) cc, first of cc I barely needed outside maybe few t2 trash pulls. Here bard have a small advantage with sap + spam able 8 sec mez vs sheep. But honestly 1 cc is more then enough for any 5 man, and worthless in raids. So even if you have no other cc in the grp it will be enough, so even here.
    b) Utility:
    Bard: Verce of joy, Speed buff (for the cost of 13% cost reduction)
    Mage: Battle rez, dispel, purge…
    Don’t think this is even a competition here. 4:0

    Verdict: HORRID
    Totally in agreement!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    II) Raid performance is much trickier to assess for several reasons. For once method used in I doesn’t work since you very rarely see chloro/archon builds in raids, mostly 1 pure Archon. So question we can look at?
    1) Are bards used in raids? Answer is definitely yes.
    2) Are bards required in raids? I would say yes.
    3) Is there reason to bring more then 1 bard to the raid? No.
    So is there a problem with bards in raids? It all comes down to #3. Is that a problem, or is it normal fait of a buff class, same way as there no reason to bring more then 1 archon. Imho that is just fine there are 32 pve souls and 20 raid slots, exactly 1 slot allocated for 1 particular soul in that raid is not bad.

    Clearly this is opinion based and open for discussion, but the fact that is arguable means that bards are in a decent place when it come to raid spots.

    Verdict: FINE
    The numbers in a 20man enable Bards to hide their inherent weakness, the buffs covering what they lack in actual contribution, but the price they pay is nobody will want more than one Bard in their raid. So yea, overall I think Bard lose more than they gain in this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    III) Skill cap. So how hard is it to play bard? How hard it is to make it perform as the close to optimal level? The answer is most definitely VERY little. This is one of the biggest face roll souls in the game atm, 10 min of practice and your motifs barely fall of, few days and never do. I don’t think anyone can argue well (key word: well, I know ppl can argue anything around here) that bards are very easy to play.
    Is that bad? Imho: yes, but I can see how a bunch of people love it for exact this reason. It allows them to faceroll and not deal with hassle of competing on dps or keeping people alive. This gives them least amount of responsibility and little to no blame. When was the last time you heard: We wiped coz this bard blows and didn’t do X?
    Verdict: HORRID (mine), Awesome(lot of people)
    Again, totally agree, and don't worry you are FAR from the only one thinking that, you can check the links in my sig, a whole article has been featured on Rift Junkie discussing how mind-numbing and passive is the bard gameplay and influence on a situation.

    So instead of "Awesome(lot of people)", it should be "Awesome(some lazy people)".
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    IV) Skill Impact. This goes in tune with III. Lets look at how much difference between “good” bard and “bad” bard. Let say good have 100% motif uptime and never over-heals, while bad one has 85% motif uptime, only spasm heal and always over-heals. The over all difference between these 2 bards would be 200 dps. And that is extreme case. More often then not it would be much less <100 dps which is pretty much not noticeable even in 5 man.
    To me personally, this is a total downer. Why would I play a class that any noob will come and do almost as good of a job as me? But yet again we go back to III and some people love it for this exact reason.

    Verdict: HORRID (mine), Awesome(lot of people)
    Only terrible and skillless people could EVER think the Bard gameplay in this game is rewarding and can demonstrate skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    V) Scalability. There is virtually none. The 4 things that actually do make a difference: Hit, Trinkets (which is getting a nerf, gg), Greater essences, MH weapon. In that order pretty much. 220 hit is easy as hell to get with just few items and runes, greater essences for for 2p a pop on AH… This leaves us with trinket and MH weapon, Where trinket well you need 2 farm 2 xperts until you get one, and MH weapons is the least important of the 4.
    How would you feel if you dps spec with t3 gear would do 20% more dps then fresh 50? It would blow but as it stands right now if fresh manages to get 220 hit (less if he specs into BD) then he can perform as 80% efficiency of t3 geared bard.

    Verdict: HORRID
    Lots of people agree the Bard scale terribly, if at all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    VI) Rotation. Before we move on lets define what in MY opinion qualities of good rotation. Lots of people will disagree and this goes back to my point at III. Good rotation offers choices, it requires to make decisions on the fly, requires watching timers (dots, buffs, cooldowns). Extreme case of this would Sin ranger build discussed on this forum, which requires watching 2 60 min buffs, 3 dots (one of them on 10 sec timer), 15 sec debuff, and positioning and pet management. This is very hard rotation and imho a bit too hard honestly, but it offers a lot of fun and possibility to shows your skill.
    Bard rotation is none of those. In raids 99% of the time you do cadience x2, heal Five times then refresh motifs, this is as dull as it gets. Damage finishers not needed, their dps is pathetic. Debuffs get over written in raid and should no be used.
    Granted my experience with support classes is limited due to mostly playing wow. But I have few friends who played EQ and according to them there were bad bard, good bards and OMFG how is that even possible bards. This game does not have this concept, it has (A bard) and (A waste of space if you cant even bard)

    Verdict: HORRID
    Repetitive, mind-numbing, unrewarding, skilless, and robotic rotation. Not much need to be said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    VII) Conclusion. From where I am standing bards are pretty deep in there. That said the bard problem is much deeper then people think, I saw few posts like increase cadience damage x2 and it will solve all the problems. No it wont, sure it will help but there was way to many issues to fix with 1 small change.
    Totally Agree!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    Few thinks I think bards need in general terms:
    1) over all buff, across the board
    2) single target heal of some sort, with finisher or on cd or w/e but something, right now bard can barely help MH to keep tank alive vs hard hitting bosses.
    3) Cleanse. I mean common bards are support let them support let them take that part of MH shoulders, especially with 1 sec gdc in theory bard would be best dispeller in the game, about time to be best at something.
    4) Some sort of debuff worth keeping in raid environment, even if it small something like 2% damage over all.
    5) More options in finishers, sure seems like we have a lot but in reality single target one blows hard it barely hit harder then aoe one, 2 debuffs ones are useless in raids. So you have aoe damage and aoe heal… that is not a lot of options.
    I advocated for #2, but you will here the occasional "support" detractors using the support class everytime something that could actually increase the sense of responsibility and the power or influence of Bards is proposed. So yes, Bard could use a direct heal, would mean THE WORLD for our capacity in PvP or when we are alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    VIII) Few things that could be done, this is more to illustrate the idea rather then giving exact way to solve a problem.
    1) Healing; Give single target damage finisher ability to heal for the damage on the target’s target, give option of dpsing while healing the tank. The finisher blows it could use a boost.
    2) Healing: Give a pure single target heal for 1200-1500, to help tank healing in 5 mans, it wont affect rading at all.
    3) Give bards 20-30 sec cd single target heal for ~1k to have some reactive ability.
    4) Motifs: for example order which they casted matters order A,B,C results in 60 sec 5% to stats buff same as before but 60 sec duration, while order C,B,A results in 3% damage done buff for 60sec, and boom all of a sudden keeping motifs became a bit harder but more fun and more interactive.
    5) Give bard scaling buff, like instead of 62ap/sp give 10% of bards ap/sp so that well geared bard actually buffs better.
    #1 My Support/DPS prototype build had a talent that gave finishers a chance to heal the most injuried raid member, but your idea is actually really nice, especially when it comes to help Bards focus healing and still contribute some dps. I truly, truly like it!

    #2 Again it would mean the world for us in PvP and give us more influence in the outcome in PvE. So totally ok with that!

    Wouldn't mind #3 and #4, especially #4 would make the soul more dynamic and fun to play!

    Never though of #5, but I have to admit, that would be a BRILLIANT idea. However I can already see the balance problems it could cause, and the fact that it doesn't solve the problem of only being able to have 1 Bard in raid.

    Overall, I agree. However you have to realize that some people are just against the idea of the Bard being open to more possibilities than being the token buff bot just by principle. Don't listen to those people, A LOT of Rogues would be delighted to have the option of being able to Main Heal, while still providing some buffs. The Buff Botters just enjoy seeing the Bard in the pitiful state it is, but we all know such a great thematic soul DESERVE MORE!!
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

  12. #12
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    You are delusional. Debuffs - should bever be used by bard in raid pretty much ever. The only exception i can think of is prince where archon might need to stay on prince for 5% damage debuff, not sure exactly how it works.

    Your detention of a noob bard is apparently one that doesn't press any buttons. Even a 10 year old can keep 3-5 motifs up, if you tell him keep these 3 up. I dont see how any of this requires skill. You massively overestimate bards contribution to the raid but if you look back i did say in terms of raids bards are fine. (kind of).

    Hmm knowing when to time the heals? really it takes a GOOD bard to figure out what u need to heal after a raid wide aoe? The yet again this is raid scenario, bards aren't too bad of in that respect with pretty much always having 5 targets to heal they raid healing isn't that bad and with buffs affecting 20 people rather then 5.
    Curious as to why you would take 5% damage > 5% physical damage and 7% magic damage

  13. #13
    Rift Chaser
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellogg View Post
    Curious as to why you would take 5% damage > 5% physical damage and 7% magic damage
    This is tricky fight he does raid wide aoe that hurts as hell and you need all damage reductions like motif of tenacity and protect the flock and well as damage debuffs on the (the % damage DEbuff archons keep on their target (or is 10%?) to be able to survive that aoe. So the boss does the aoe and needs the damage debuff while raid is dpsing the adds.

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    Agreed that is definitely a situation where bard can make a difference with skill. But lets look at two things:
    1) how often do these situation come up? i can think of 2: Prince last and last boss in CC. out of what 50-60ish boss fights in rift?
    2) how much difference does it really make? 600 heal for 5 players that is 3k heal, with crit it is 3.8k or so. Can it make a difference in that case of people dying or not? Yes it can. Keep in mind if someone wasnt toped then you using it 2 seconds before the aoe is BETTER then wating because else they would be insta gibed.

    Is that all together really even come close to making a distinction between good and bad bards?

    I would never say that Bard is a difficult class to play. But however small a distinction it may be, there is a difference between how a good bard plays and how a bad one plays. It's far less a distinction than say, a good healing cleric and a bad healing cleric, but there is a distinction.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    I've played my bard to about the same range in beta and live (early 30s).

    I loved my bard in warfronts in beta. Bard/Riftstalker/Saboteur put out solid splash healing numbers, had durability, and mobility.

    I hate my bard in warfronts on live. Cadence is ticking for 55 damage, one dps generally works me over pretty hard, but I guess mobility is about the same... I just die faster so I can't get away as much as I used to.

    PvP survivability. That's the biggest issue for me. I could always be doing it wrong, ofc.
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