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Thread: Rogues, Test Servers, and Carts Before Horses

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Rogues, Test Servers, and Carts Before Horses

    So as I am reading through the forums and have observed the behavior exhibited by Trion prior to the last patch process I am coming to the conclusion that the test servers are there only to make sure that whatever patch is coming up won't crash the game completely.

    They are not for checking to see how the patch's proposed changes will actually affect a class with the exception of some dev mistake breaking something completely. There has not been one piece of good feedback on the forums regarding Sin changes in terms of PvE parsing or PvP effectiveness and has this slowed the Trion patch train? No. Have any changes or messages from devs been forthcoming on the complete ineffectiveness of the proposed changes? Again no. The conclusion I have here is that we have a small group of people who listen to the idea of what we want but fail to deliver and then fail once more by lending a deaf ear to the feedback provided on the proposed changes.

    Is rogue's energy issue fixed? No. It has been heard by Trion as it is a recurring theme on their forums and still not fixed even though it is truly one of the greater underlying issues which gimp the class more than any other at this point. It is a cause and not a symptom.

    AP scaling is a tougher issue to tackle but instead of trying to do so we are making changes to how much ridiculously scaled poor AP is added to individual moves? Again, AP is the cause and not the symptom.

    Instead of focusing on the key issues it seems that the dev team is addressing symptoms that can directly be attributed to other causes. If you work to fix symptoms without addressing the causes you really do little to advance your cause and simply create more work for later.

    I don't want to be OP.. I just want the class I love to play to work. I appreciate the work that devs and anyone working at Trion do to bring me the entertainment that this game provides but wish they would focus on the root causes of the issues that rogues have rather than putting the cart before the horse by fixing symptoms.

    A little root cause analysis to illustrate:

    Assassin does subpar damage in PvE: why?
    Their moves don't do enough damage and they are energy starved through most encounters: why?
    A. AP scales very poorly
    B. The cost of their moves in relation to their regen rate adds a half second extra time to their GCD

    At this point there is not more why to be asked. Someone, somewhere set the AP ratio and determined the cost vs. regen rate ratio for rogues. These are the root causes. Address these and you don't have to address Ambush, Puncture, Backstab, and overall base damage individually. Address these and then see where the soul stands.

    I appreciate how difficult the balancing issues are to work on. You have to start at the lowest common denominators though instead of a piecemeal approach that skews later itemization and begins this unending cycle of class/role juggling through patches.

    If the feedback on the proposed patch is any indicator of the quality of the fix that rogues get then I feel for the people who wasted their time and energy putting it all together and hope that someone somewhere has the ability to step back, see what is going on, and see that the proposed changes will still leave rogues with the requirement to use hybrid classes in lieu of pure specs, leave assassins and mm as support souls, and really do little for the rogue class as a whole aside from a lateral change in play. This does not meet the stated goal of the patch. So that said, why would it still go out as is?

    I don't expect any response from Trion as I am sure that the employees there, like most people at work, have better things to do than to listen to every forum whiner out here. However, any feedback on my attitude from the rest of the community would be appreciated as if I am looking at things incorrectly I would love to know how and be more content with what is going on.

  2. #2
    Telaran Supjeremiah's Avatar
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    The reason why they are messing with skill specific damage and not addressing the AP scaling is because raising the AP scaling will affect more than just the rogue. Imagine a 1300 dps BM getting a higher scale from AP. The end result will be us finally hitting 1k consistently but BMs and other warrior classes hitting 1600+ consistently.
    Nikuyo - Spitescar - 50 Rogue
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  3. #3
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supjeremiah View Post
    The reason why they are messing with skill specific damage and not addressing the AP scaling is because raising the AP scaling will affect more than just the rogue. Imagine a 1300 dps BM getting a higher scale from AP. The end result will be us finally hitting 1k consistently but BMs and other warrior classes hitting 1600+ consistently.
    Warriors circumvent the AP issue slightly by the way their abilities and talents scale. Warrior finishers for example gain +% weapon damage while rogue finishers gain +% attack power contribution. Also warriors have large %damage talents which amplify the effects of weapon dps, which is how physical damage gets most of its scaling. Essentially an AP fix will contribute much more to rogue dps than to warrior dps because rogues are more dependent on it, and the warrior %damage talents can easily be scaled down to compensate for the AP increase if needed. The state of warriors is not a valid excuse for not having the AP fix that rogues need.

  4. #4
    Ascendant nand chan's Avatar
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    One thing caught my eye in particular from your post, the mention of an "energy problem".

    What do you mean by this? Rogues are not meant to have infinite energy, energy/power starvation is intended and good. Otherwise, why even have a resource? Let's just make all rogue abilities no cost.

    But then playing a rogue would be much more button mashing and much less timing, "saving" energy for later use (for periods when you can't DPS the boss consistently), and rotations would turn into one button macro spamming like clerics.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    The energy "problem" is only a "problem" for you and a selected few QQers. Energy is a RESOURCE. Resources are suppose to limit you in some way. You're not suppose to just faceroll everything without any consequences to resource management. You act as if though the energy problem IS a problem. I'm sorry to say this to you, but your word is not conclusive. About the only thing you can argue for is for skills that allow you to manage your resources, ie power regen skill warriors have, mana regen and mana cost reduction skills mages have. If you're asking for cost = regen, then I'm sorry but that's not what you're going to get. If you're going to ask for cost > regen, but cost + skill that lowers cost or accelerates regen >= regen you might have something.

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara
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    To those saying energy is NOT a problem, you need to wake up. Energy IS a resource and resources should NOT be unlimited, this much is true.

    Unfortunately, no other class is resource-limited to the extent we are. Mana, for example, is meant to last for long duration fights with bosses and there are plenty of ways to regenerate it. In a short PvP fight, no mana class becomes Mana starved. Warriors, while still using energy, can go nearly twice as long as a Rogue before becoming energy starved. They also don't have to build as many CP's to do some burst damage. It takes us 3-5 seconds depending on if/how many 2 CP builders we have. That is a long time between burst damage for people to heal up, and both of a Rogue's main targets run with heals of some sort almost 90% of the time.

    As it is, I literally become starved after 6 or 7 attacks. That's 6 or 7 seconds. Not much dies that fast in PvP. In PvE it is OK to take it easy for a second, regenerate, and then continue. In PvP that is damage that you aren't doing in a shorter amount of time than it takes to kill even the squishiest of toons. I can't count the number of times my target has lived because I just didn't have enough energy to get that 5th CP and hit them with a finisher before they got a heal in.

    How often does a Cleric start having problems healing himself while you are hitting him though, due to a "resource"? Nobody is saying they should be unlimited, but they shouldn't be super-limited for one certain archetype, and practically limitless for another unless that other one has some kind of inherent disadvantage. Anyone who plays this game knows that Clerics don't have any inherent disadvantages, and actually quite the opposite.
    Last edited by Calo; 04-27-2011 at 10:17 PM.

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    Champion Red Exodus's Avatar
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    I'd love some energy management skills, the only ones we have are BD passives, and as gimp as MM [my dps spec] is already in PvE going into 16+ points into BD just for energy management passives would just make things worse.

    It doesn't really bother me in PvP because there's a lot of LoSing, out-ranging and CCs but in PvE it's a lot more glaring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dink View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    go play a fps pvp in mmorpgs did nothing but bring out the worst in the cummunity
    In one post, you've managed to bring out the worst in capitalization, punctuation and spelling.

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple
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    Energy management is a nightmare in either slightly longer (i.e. 10-20 second) pvp encounters or in any pve raid boss fight.

    There are some who don't understand why it's an issue, I suggest they go play warrior, cleric or mage for a bit then come back and be like 'what the heck?'.

    Given our existing low damage output on abilities, capping that even more by restricting us to a 1.5 second rotation when we have a 1 second GSD is simply counter to any kind of logic.

    I would understand it more if we had a 200 energy pool, and regened slightly faster. That way we would still need energy management but we wouldn't run out after 6 global cooldowns (or is it 5). We can never have enough burst because of the need for five combo points on a target rather than none for cleric/mage or 3 for warrior.

    The rogue energy system is rubbish, doesn't make for a fun game, there is no way to manage it properly because if you're trying to do sustained damage you simply run out of energy after the first few seconds of any fight.

    That's not poor energy management, that's simply poor game design.

  9. #9
    Plane Walker
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    2 points I'd like to make here....

    #1 - The Energy Issue:

    Rogue energy regeneration was actually buffed significantly before release. In beta, it regenerated half as much as now. In exchange, I'm told rogues have a shorter GCD than the other callings, no idea if this is true or not because I've never timed it .... but my rogue skills do seem to refresh faster than my Mage and he feels much more spammy.

    Ultimately, I think rogues could use a slight reduction in ability energy cost to prolong our burst a bit longer. That change alone would probably help our DPS a bit.

    #2 the AP issue:

    Our main AP issue here is that we receive or AP from 50% DEX and 50% STR ... unlike warriors who are 75% STR and 25% DEX. Why they did this I have no idea, but supposedly it came from Riftstalkers crying for more STR in beta to up their parry.

    The solution here is simple ... make us the opposite of warriors like we should be. AP = 75% DEX and 25% STR.

    I'd be interested to see how the AP change I suggested alone impacted our DPS, and frankly it's the most logical change they could make. Our gear is all DEX heavy as you would expect, not half DEX half STR .. our class damage should benefit from that fully.

    But as it stands, we are not getting the same benefit from our gear as warriors do .. and it's a significant amount. Think about it, if your rogue has 500 AP now ... they would have around 600 with that change.
    Last edited by AngryPitbull; 04-28-2011 at 12:44 AM.

  10. #10
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    We have been complaining about this same topic since day 1 and Trion has said nothing about it. I assume they think its is working as intended and we dont deserve some kind of explanation as to why they think it is working as intended when 80% of the Rogue population thinks otherwise.

  11. #11
    Plane Touched Ratkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supjeremiah View Post
    The reason why they are messing with skill specific damage and not addressing the AP scaling is because raising the AP scaling will affect more than just the rogue. Imagine a 1300 dps BM getting a higher scale from AP. The end result will be us finally hitting 1k consistently but BMs and other warrior classes hitting 1600+ consistently.
    public function CalcApScalingByCalling(apScaleByCalling) {

    global apScaleValue;

    switch (apScaleByCalling) {

    case 1: // rogue
    apScaleValue = apScaleValue * 1.5;
    break;

    default:
    apScaleValue = apScaleValue;
    break;

    }

    }
    It's not rocket science, really...
    Last edited by Ratkin; 04-28-2011 at 12:52 AM.

  12. #12
    Ascendant nand chan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratkin View Post
    It's not rocket science, really...
    Why bother implementing a class method for some lookup crap when you can simply use a datatype intended for lookup, like an array or a dictionary? And the first argument should technically be "calling", no more, no less.
    Last edited by nand chan; 04-28-2011 at 01:15 AM.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vindicit View Post
    We have been complaining about this same topic since day 1 and Trion has said nothing about it. I assume they think its is working as intended and we dont deserve some kind of explanation as to why they think it is working as intended when 80% of the Rogue population thinks otherwise.
    Because more than 80% of the Rogue population doesn't know how to effectively play their class. But by all means.. buff us so I can do even more damage than I do now. Then I'll get to listen to people complain that Rogues are OP for once.
    Deckardcaine
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  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vindicit View Post
    We have been complaining about this same topic since day 1 and Trion has said nothing about it. I assume they think its is working as intended and we dont deserve some kind of explanation as to why they think it is working as intended when 80% of the Rogue population thinks otherwise.
    Yes let's pull numbers out of our buttholes. Or it can't possibly be that you think you're 80% of the rogue population. Then again, nothing surprises me on what people will do to non-stop QQ.

    Warriors' attacks cost less, but they also regen a lot slower. The only reason why warriors don't have much of a problem compared to rogues is that they have skills that help them with energy management. For rogues, it's only in BD. Healers have to manage their mana pool (they don't get much in terms of mana regen skills) and melee clerics have a cd on their mana regen skill. Ranged cleric DPS barely has any and they're all on cd and cost a gcd. Mages also have to use a GCD or wait on CDs to use their mana management skills. So don't make it seem as if they have it all rosey. If you're going to QQ about something, at least QQ about it correctly. The way you guys want it would make energy obsolete. Why have a resource limitation when you won't be limited by the resource since regen > cost?

    Even if Trion added more energy regen management skills, you guys would probably cry that it sucks since you have to waste a GCD or add points to it. It's a neverending cesspool here filled with everyone's tears. It disgusts me to think I try to come to the rogue forums to discuss and learn about the class. Instead, I have to wade through countless tear filled posts of how underpowered rogues are with exaggeration and hyperboles.

  15. #15
    Shadowlander
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    Well the amount of vitriole this generate doesn't surprise me I guess.

    The reason I see energy regen rate as an issue is that rogue moves are balanced for a 1.0 second GCD while our energy regeneration gives us a 1.5 second GCD. In any good raid on any fight that lasts more than a couple of minutes rogues fall behind equally geared DPS warriors. This is in large part due to this issue. I don't believe that at any point I mentioned upping regen tot he point that we have limitless energy. There is a lot of ground to play with between constantly energy starved and limitless face rolling. I don't like to be limited tot he same NB/Sin/BD single target spec and rotation to more or less solve the issue by building CP with 40 energy moves. I enjoy the play of the spec but I would like to have something else that is equally viable and this won't happen without some adjustment to move cost/energy regen ratios. Arguing that you still put out decent DPS is beside the point - so do I. However, wouldn't you like some variety in your role as well? Wouldn't you like to have a choice of play styles to maximize single target DPS?

    AP scaling ratio changes WOULD affect all physical DPS classes. This does make it a harder fix. That said, I've always taken the approach that fixing the root issue, even if harder int he short term, always works out better in the long term. Right now point values for AP on armor and weapons are balanced incorrectly with crit stats and attribute stats. This means that though AP DOES scale, it is a losing stat to have on weapons because for the same level of weapon the crit and attribute states give much more bang for your buck. This leads to what we have now: crit stacking and ignoring AP. Most of the T2 token armor set is useless compared to the drops with stacked crit. Heck, most good rogues I know would rather don a pair of crafted blue DPs pants with a ton of crit than they would T1 OR T2 token vendor pants. Why? Because AP ratios are bad but AP is rationed out on items like it is an equal stat.

    Neither situation, in my opinion, is optimal. As for the suggestion that dex give rogues .75 AP in contrast to warrior .75 from strength, that is interesting.

    For those who think rogues are fine now: I like rogues as well and am the top DPS rogue in my raid. That said, a good, equally geared warrior will out DPS me all day. If, as a rogue, you are top DPS in your raid then you need to fire all of your warriors and reevaluate your group's knowledge of the game as it is lacking. Warriors are the kings of melee DPS. I don't want to be a king.. I just want to be on par. Any rogue who says that our DPS equals that of an equally geared, properly specced warrior needs to leave their bubble and run with a more competent group to see the truth.

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