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Thread: Yet another post on the problems rogues currently face.

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Yet another post on the problems rogues currently face.

    First off, I'd like to say that I will do my best to make sure this isn't a QQ post. If it comes off as such, I'm sorry. I am very aware that there are a myriad of other posts out there addressing the problems, but there are a few areas I feel are ignored in the majority of the other posts.

    It seems to me that a large portion of rogue problems could be fixed in the talent trees.. Please note that this is not a look at the soul's quality as a main soul, but rather how it interacts with others as a secondary/third soul. Also, this is focused on DPS souls in PvE. Tank/Support/PvP is a whole different story.

    I will be listing the most common(in my personal experience) point spreads for each soul. I understand that there are a plethora of options, these are only what I most frequently see.
    Assassin - A top notch soul that compliments nearly every other DPS soul well. 17 points in assassin nets:
    5% Crit
    4%Physical Damage
    Weapon Damage Bleed Proc
    10% Overall damage increase on critical hits
    20% Crit Damage
    5% Crit Poison

    Bladedancer - Less common than assassin as a secondary soul, but not unheard of. 19 points in BD nets:
    5% Hit
    50% Increased Auto-Attack Damage
    15% Dexterity
    20% Damage for 15 Seconds
    Energy Return on Finishers
    40 Dex Buff

    Marksman - Pretty much a terrible secondary soul. Essentially 0 benefit to anything but ranger.

    Nightblade - An incredible backup to any DPS soul. Lots of low tier, cheap gains. Only 11 points will net:
    15% Damage on CP generators.
    15% Damage on Finishers
    5% Damage Increase proc.

    Ranger - Good bonuses for a small amount of points, though it rapidly becomes of little use to melee. 6 Points in Ranger nets:
    5% Crit
    2% Damage Taken Reduction
    46 AP self Buff

    Riftstalker - Not much in the way of DPS here, 5 points in RS will net:
    15% Attack Power

    Saboteur - A soul much like MM that is almost entirely focused on itself with little help to other souls, still 5 points will net:
    15% Dex

    The problem I have with the design of the souls is how vastly superior some are compared to other. For example, there are very few competitive DPS souls that do not take at least 11 points in NB. It is just TOO good, there is no other option. MM and Sab on the other hand become specialized far too early, providing very little to other souls.

    My Suggested Solution:

    1. Buff the damage of CP generating abilities and finishers by 15% across the board and rework low tier NB.
    Because essentially every DPS build must take these points, there is little point in having them talented. Freeing up the extra points that were needed here could be helpful in increasing rogue DPS overall.
    2. Marksmen in its current state would need an entire low tier rework to be of any use to any soul but ranger. Possibilities include allowing Penetrating Shots, Master Archer, or Increased Fire Power to work with melee and swapping that into the first tier.
    3. Saboteur is a problem because it is such an incredibly unique soul. There is very little you can use in Sab to effect other souls. I would personally suggest moving Incriminate to 6 points in.


    Questions, comments, flames, name calling, and terrible jokes are all welcomed. Thanks for reading(or not).
    tl;dr - <dinosaurs vs robots>. way better than pirates vs ninjas.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Continued...

    4. Bladedancer has strong benefits as a secondary soul, unfortunately the first tier talents are generally wasted points. The dodge is wasted for obvious reasons, and while the hit can be useful it rapidly becomes useless due to the large amount of hit on gear. Anything else to add value to this talent could make BD increase in worth as a secondary spec.

    5. The only complaint I have on the assassin soul is that Serrated Blades doesn't proc from ranged weapons, making MM/Rgr waste 3 points somewhere in the tree.

  3. #3
    Plane Touched
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    As a BD-main user, I agree with you about BD's problem. They should make "Combat pose" help BD proc its reactives base on team dodge/parry.

    Another thing is dodge stat (which is the most important stat for BD's survivability) is poorly scaled even with buffs (roughly 25% with all dodge reactives are up, and 70% with Side Step, but those turn out pretty useless because of Hit stat). I rather trade off Parry buff from Improved False Blade for Increase % dodge per pt spent after 21.

    Moreover, dodge is useless against mages n clerics. To solve this problem, they either make us able to actually dodge spells, or include magic resist with the dodge buffs.

  4. #4
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    While I don't necessarily agree with your specific suggestions, I have to say this is a great post.

    It really outlines some of the incompatibilities with our souls - they just don't function well together. Many of them ONLY function decently with 2 or 3 other souls period. If some trees were reworked so the bottom few tiers contained more versatile talents and abilities, we could see much more variety.
    Last edited by Artifa; 04-26-2011 at 02:55 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlientShadow View Post
    As a BD-main user, I agree with you about BD's problem. They should make "Combat pose" help BD proc its reactives base on team dodge/parry.

    Another thing is dodge stat (which is the most important stat for BD's survivability) is poorly scaled even with buffs (roughly 25% with all dodge reactives are up, and 70% with Side Step, but those turn out pretty useless because of Hit stat). I rather trade off Parry buff from Improved False Blade for Increase % dodge per pt spent after 21.

    Moreover, dodge is useless against mages n clerics. To solve this problem, they either make us able to actually dodge spells, or include magic resist with the dodge buffs.
    Yea BD needs some help, I think the incoming buffs will be pretty significant for PvE purposes though.

  6. #6
    Champion of Telara
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    Change the title. Get rid of the part where you suggest changes and this would actuallly be a pretty usefull thread for someone who doesnt know the rogue that well yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahrken View Post
    Change the title. Get rid of the part where you suggest changes and this would actuallly be a pretty usefull thread for someone who doesnt know the rogue that well yet.
    Sorry it doesn't meet your expectations, your feedback is noted.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Gotta say, as a NB main, i have 17 points in Sin and 19 points in BD in exactly the places you assumed.

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    I have the same feelings about NB as well. If you want to be a DPS you have to dump those 10 points into NB, there's no avoiding it, yet even after using the 10 points certain souls still suffer from poor dps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dink View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    go play a fps pvp in mmorpgs did nothing but bring out the worst in the cummunity
    In one post, you've managed to bring out the worst in capitalization, punctuation and spelling.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfMind View Post

    Riftstalker - Not much in the way of DPS here, 5 points in RS will net:
    15% Attack Power

    For PvP there is a LOT to be offered from RS.

    with 17 points you can have--

    15% atk power
    15% endurance
    TWO new phase shifts (both targeted, one that frees you from cc & can be cast on team members, the other adds a combo point)

    Targeted shifts allow you to "blink" up to the top of codex and do very fun and useful things in PvP. And Ohhhh is it fun.

    Each time you phase you gain:

    15% overall damage for 10 sec
    15% crit for 10 sec
    15% of physical damage take absorbed (up to 60% of max health)

    Pop Fury or SoD right after you phase.... Very powerful
    Last edited by Greenskeeper; 04-26-2011 at 10:41 PM.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    +1 to OP

    My main soul is marksman, and I have different roles which include combinations of Assassin/Ranger/Nightblade in exactly those abilities mentioned. The value of Nightblade and Assassin is just too important to any other soul to ignore.

    Your suggestions are spot on.

    The lower tier abilities in all souls should be 'generic', and open to choice regardless of what your playstyle is. The abilties which distinguish souls from each other, and are potentially more important to that playstyle, should be only available at higher tiers.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenskeeper View Post
    For PvP there is a LOT to be offered from RS.

    with 17 points you can have--

    15% atk power
    15% endurance
    TWO new phase shifts (both targeted, one that frees you from cc & can be cast on team members, the other adds a combo point)

    Targeted shifts allow you to "blink" up to the top of codex and do very fun and useful things in PvP. And Ohhhh is it fun.

    Each time you phase you gain:

    15% overall damage for 10 sec
    15% crit for 10 sec
    15% of physical damage take absorbed (up to 60% of max health)

    Pop Fury or SoD right after you phase.... Very powerful
    Oh yea, I'm very aware of the benefits of RS in PvP. I ran 26Rs/40Sin for quite a while and loved it. Like I said, this post is mostly focused on PvE as PvP is an entirely different beast.

  13. #13
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    1. Post summarizes known information about rogue soul subspec options.
    2. No compelling argument to show that any change is needed. Several souls offer useful subspec capabilities. Some off somewhat less. The end?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
    1. Post summarizes known information about rogue soul subspec options.
    2. No compelling argument to show that any change is needed. Several souls offer useful subspec capabilities. Some off somewhat less. The end?
    You trolls are just adorable =)

    Let me break it down for you here,
    1. I summarized the information for those who may not be comfortable with all of the different soul options. You can't address a problem well without first understanding it. The more people that can understand and give knowledgeable criticism the better.
    2. My argument doesn't need to compel you, you are no one.

    EDIT: For clarity.
    Last edited by HalfMind; 04-27-2011 at 08:31 AM.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfMind View Post
    You trolls are just adorable =)

    Let me break it down for you here,
    1. I summarized the information for those who may not be comfortable with all of the different soul options. You can't address a problem well without first understanding it. The more people that can understand and give knowledgeable criticism the better.
    2. My argument doesn't need to compel you, you are no one.

    EDIT: For clarity.
    Bro, bro, bro.

    Do you know who you are talking to? That is EASYMODEX, X for XTRA AWESOME. You better bite your tongue before you get an XTRA dose of *** kicking.

    Ignorant ****.
    Sean : Guardian @ Reclaimer - DvR is recruiting.

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