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Thread: My Rogue observations, PvP and PvE, (LONG)

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Tiger's Avatar
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    Default My Rogue observations, PvP and PvE, (LONG)

    MY BACKGROUND: PVE-wise in RIFT, I've only done T2s, I haven't begun Greenscale yet. I've got plenty of PvE raid experience in other games, including server-first level stuff in my most recent MMO. PVP-wise, I've done pvp using bard/ranger, ranger/marksman, full marksman, nightblade mixes, and a riftstalker runner's build. I am not a "pro" pvp'er by any means - honestly I think I'm in the 75th percentile, skill-wise. I'm around rank 2.5, which I realize is nothing in this game, however I have a good amount of experience pvp'ing in another popular mmo's battlegrounds (rank 14 in vanilla as a melee, and tons of pvp as a ranged). I'm telling you this because it's helpful to know the background of the writer, PVE or PVP, since some concepts are the same from game to game.

    And so, here are my Rogue observations, in no particular order:

    DPS. PvE Rogue DPS (and PvP, for that matter) is simply not as high as the other callings. This means that any group of 5 containing 2 rogues automatically starts off behind the eight ball. That means it's harder for rogues to get into groups, which sucks. Cleric DPS is higher than Rogue DPS? To quote our good friend Willy Wonka: "Strike that, reverse it".

    RESURRECT. I heard rumors this is coming for Rogues, but I'm including this observation for completeness' sake. There is absolutely no reason that 3 callings get resurrect and not 4. Soul Walk is a brilliant game mechanic, and is great for wipe recovery when trying new content or for stupid mishaps on farm content, intended or not. Give Rogues resurrect, and I mean give it to 2 or 3 rogue souls, not just one. What if you give the resurrect to Riftstalker, but a rogue does not want to maintain a Tanking spec at all? (On a side note, the Warrior and Mage callings should get more resurrects, too. Similar to my Riftstalker arguement, if a warrior does not want to maintain a paladin spec, he shouldn't have to keep one, just for access to resurrect.)

    So I went into some warfronts, and the first thing I noticed in PvP was that all of my fellow rogues have fewer hit points than the warriors. Five minutes of investigating after the match told me why: "Gift of <classname>". Four of the warrior souls get this benefit, and they all stack, and it's quite obvious to me that it's for PvE tanking. This puts a really bad taste in my mouth - that other game I played had problems when innovative players used PvE tanking stuff in PvP. The four warrior souls that get this ability are all viable in PvP. Even estimating very conservatively, assuming a PvP warrior puts 30 points in the souls that have a "Gift-of" ability, that's a 15% benefit to health! Comparatively, the only Rogue souls which get anything like this is Riftstalker's Guardian Phase, which also comes with a hefty damage decrease. Why does the game design automatically give Warriors 15% health, or more, than everyone else? Unfair.

    Also, the "Ranged Rogue" is simply not viable to play in pvp. 8 points in the Warlord soul gives Sergeant's Orders, which completely negates the entire concept. Yes, things like Repelling Shot (which requires a spent Talent point) and Retreat (40 point root) help, but the cooldowns are so long (30 seconds and 45 seconds, compared to 8 seconds for Sergeant's Orders), they are impractical. Once you get in melee range, it's over. All terrain advantages are also negated completely by SO, which can be cast every 8 seconds. I could take my time and climb up on top of a rock and set myself up, and BOOM - one SO and it's all wasted.

    Melee has an inherent advantage automatically when they are chasing a Ranged, since they can use abilities during the chase, and the ranged guy can't fire behind them. (yes, there is the run/jump and spin/fire a shot, but it's not the same). The whole proceeding paragraph doesn't even take into account Snares and stuns, which, if you count them up, favor the melee souls (warrior/cleric/rogue) in a huge way. Things like Forced Recon (passive snare-proc while chasing) make it worse. Of course, things like the Ranger's Escape Artist gives immunity for 4 seconds but it's not enough. Here is a typical combat sequence: Ranger fires a shot and get noticed, the warrior pulls him in, the ranger is superamazing and fires a Crippling Shot (6 second snare) in mid-air, the ranger lands and gets snared, Ranger hits Escape Artist and runs for his life, melee continues button mashing for damage, ranger cannot get out of melee range in 4 seconds anyway so its useless. In those 4 seconds, the warrior just presses both mouse buttons and uses 3 keypress abilities (1.5 second global cooldown) and probably 2 reactives (off the global) and the ranger dies.

    On a side note, the Marksman pedestal mechanic is not a very pvp-friendly mechanic, for the reasons stated above and many others. Now, if the pedestal gave us complete CC immunity, reduced our damage taken by 30%, and gave our damaging attacks a 30% chance to stun the target 2 seconds, *then* it would be useful. In PvE it's not very friendly either, since there is so much moving around in fights. I suspect it gets even worse in greenscale. Also, the fact that the pedestal doesn't scale in a linear fashion makes things worse for pvp and pve. If you don't go 18 pts into marksman (to get the 10% pedestal), the whole soul is inferior. The next step is 51 pts (30% pedestal), and I've tried that build, it's useless too. There is no in-between.

    In the PvP soul, Cloudy Poison isn't very helpful - there are not very many casters in PvP that use non-instant spells. I don't know how to fix that without completely changing it, although I guess you could have the debuff also nullify/fizzle the next instant-cast spell that is cast. Also, the first teir of talents includes Penetrating Strikes, which gives 10% armor penetration. That is 100% useless for Nightblade, Bard, and Saboteur, which means if you would like to play those souls in PvP, you can't take anything from the left side of the pvp tree without wasting 5 talent points in armor pen.

    Fighting a healer in PvP is hilarious. If a rogue is doing 550 dps, and a healer is doing 450 hps, we will simply never kill them. HOT spells cannot be interupted, and since they are instant, the cleric can simply keep moving (nullify the pedestal, nullify terrain advantage). While HoTs are rolling, they heal the cleric even while he is stunned or silenced. Fell Blades (32 pt root, Nightblade) helps a little on this, but not much. I havent ever tried it, but I'm sure Anathema would not help, as it only lasts for 5 castings of heals. All of the healers get some type of bigger heal on cooldown, and Rogue "Burst" can't overcome the healing "Burst". I don't know where the inequity between DPS and HPS came from, but I suspect it's due to Spell Power and Attack Power not scaling the same way. (My RL cleric friend has almost 1000 spell power and I have about 500-600 attack power, depending on the build.)

    Ranger pets are inconsistent in PvE. Some boss mechanics can target them, and they die. Some mechanics are not pet-friendly, like a proximity-spreading dot. Sometimes they are immunte to boss mechanics. Sometimes the line of sight stuff matters and you can't pull out your pet in time to save him. Sometimes, the pet is immune to the line of sight stuff. It's impossible to tell. Why do King of the Jungle and Hasten Call require me to spend a talent point? Pets should be that way, automatically. Why does it take 8 seconds AND 100 energy to cast my pet? This means that if my pet dies during a trash fight, I have to wait 3-5 seconds for my energy to reach 100, and THEN another 8 seconds for the casting time.

    The Bladedancer soul makes no sense to me. A talent in the first tree that gives 1-5% dodge? This isn't a tanking soul. The other talent is 1-5% hit. Hit? Every rogue is more than cap'd on Hit, this talent is just a waste of space. I haven't looked at the cleric/warrior/mage souls, but I don't remember any talents like this one. (If they are present in those other calling's souls, they are useless there also.) Essentially, if I'd like to use the Bladedancer soul, it is either (a) a secondary soul to Riftstalker tanking or (b) waste 5 talent points in a first-tier talent I don't want.

    Speaking of tanking, any healer will tell you that he would prefer the tank taking multiple, smaller hits versus fewer, bigger hits. If you want an over-simplified numeric example, the tank taking 5 hits of 4,000 damage is better than him taking 3 hits of 6,000 damage, even though the total damage is higher. Smoother damage is better for healers. This fact means that in end-game tanking will always be ruled by the Block skill, so Riftstalker tanks are screwed. I have two suggestions for this, : (a) let Riftstalker tanks use a Shield, or (b) give Riftstalkers an "offhand parry" thing which reduces damage in a similar manner to Block.

    Self-healing is something that Rogues are really missing. Compare the Souls in the other callings to the Rogue, and you'll see what I mean. I hesitate to list them here, since I might forget some. Even the little stuff - like a Reaver's "Soul Feast" talent or a Warlock's Life Leech root ability, make a difference: even small heals are like having more Health in PvP. If the heals are bigger, like the VK's Fusion of Flesh (26 pt root, 15 second CD), they make an even bigger difference. Even something with a long cooldown, like Paladin's Touch of Life (8 pt root, 10 min CD), is clutch in PvP. Why do warriors and mages get more self-heals than Rogues? Is this by design? I realize Bards get heals, but the difference is that there is a big sacrifice in damage for bards to get the healing, but for other callings, the damage sacrifice is smaller or non-existant.

    Rogues are severaly lacking in Reactive abilities. Wait a second, the DEXTERITY class has fewer reactive abilities than other classes? That makes no sense to me. We need reactives for ALL of the other souls besides Bladedancer - reactives that are off the global cooldown like warriors, and/or reactives that reduce the "casting time" of the next big-damage ability, like mages and clerics, or a mixture of both. I apologize for not noticing this inequity of reactives during beta.

    Rogues need a way to strip/purge buffs, I am sick of looking at those icons in runic descent that increase NPC golem damage by 5% with no way to strip them myself. I heard this is coming for marksman, and all I have to say is *thank you*. I feel sorry for rogues who don't play marksman, though, is there any chance to get a buff-strip mechanism for a couple of the other souls?

    The Nightblade Soul looks like it would be really fun to play, but 20m range is really prohibitive. For Bard and Saboteur, 20m makes sense to me: sacrifice some range for utility. But Nightblades? I can't see any reason that Marksman and Ranger should get 35m range, and not Nightblade.

    We are still occasionally energy starved. I realize there is an argument that goes something like "well if Energy didn't matter, why would the resource exist?" That would be fine, except all I hear on vent is clerics saying "my mana is fine, I can't run out" and mages that say "I have infinite mana". Maybe they are using abilities to get mana back or something, but it certainly doesn't reflect in their DPS or healing capabilities. What's the deal? I want infinite energy. Or a way to get energy back without having to sacrifice DPS. It only seems fair.

    Lastly, a nice way of re-directing threat would really help, something similar to the Saboteur's Incriminate, for the other Souls.

    Thanks for Reading!

  2. #2
    Ascendant Blays's Avatar
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    Dude... ahhhh..... i dont know what else to say but read more forums i guess... and L2P

    Iv been PvPing as a 51 Sin, BD, Sab and MM and they all have an equal chance vs any other class but Healers.
    Sabs dominate PvE and only good warriors come out above Sabs in a melee friendly fight.
    NB/Sin or Sab/Rnr put out insane numbers, leaving even warriors behind.

    really L2P
    Last edited by Blays; 04-25-2011 at 07:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torvax View Post
    Im an R8 Cleric.
    1 Rogue can annihilate 2 healing clerics together-Cross healing doesnt work against a rog. .

  3. #3
    Plane Touched Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blays View Post
    Dude... ahhhh..... i dont know what else to say but read more forums i guess... and L2P

    Iv been PvPing as a 51 Sin, BD, Sab and MM and they all have an equal chance vs any other class but Healers.
    Sabs dominate PvE and only good warriors come out above Sabs in a melee friendly fight.
    NB/Sin or Sab/Rnr put out insane numbers, leaving even warriors behind.

    really L2P
    Is this a joke? I refer you to YOUR OWN THREAD

    Link: http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...-Dont-Touch-It!

    And quoted for posterity (with added BOLD by me):

    Quote Originally Posted by Blays View Post
    I have not said a bad word about this game and was leaving strictly possessive feedback about TRION
    Because i really believed you guys were different, i loved the detailed patch notes and that they were coming out so often, i loved constant communication with the community and loved the game in general.

    And i can not believe it came down to me making a thread like this

    TRION wake up! Completely destroying the only viable rogue PvE spec, because of few lvl 30 pvpers is completely unnecessary....
    I researched and tried every Rogue tree and they all do laughable damage aside from what used to be Sab and maybe Ranger which is still half useless in T2..... WAKE THE HELL UP! DONT DO THIS TO US!
    Please call your psychiatrist as well as financial manager and let them determine how many people will actually quit and how much of a moeny loss it will be for the company because of this! I assure you the number will blow your mind away and make your knees shaking! then sit down and rethink your way of balancing the classes! because this is not it!!!

    I urge every rogue to make similar thread so they hear us!
    SUCH A NERF WAS UNCALLED FOR!


    Also free Nelson Mandela!
    Thank you!

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    Speaking of tanking, any healer will tell you that he would prefer the tank taking multiple, smaller hits versus fewer, bigger hits. If you want an over-simplified numeric example, the tank taking 5 hits of 4,000 damage is better than him taking 3 hits of 6,000 damage, even though the total damage is higher. Smoother damage is better for healers. This fact means that in end-game tanking will always be ruled by the Block skill, so Riftstalker tanks are screwed. I have two suggestions for this, : (a) let Riftstalker tanks use a Shield, or (b) give Riftstalkers an "offhand parry" thing which reduces damage in a similar manner to Block.
    Um, you appear to be mistaken here.

    Rogues are not avoidance tanks. I'm fairly sure we actually have less avoidance than an equivalent warrior tank. Rogues are mitigation based tanks - that's what our shields do. Rogues in fact are *easier* to heal than warriors because the damage we take is ALWAYS reduced.

    Warriors block physical damage *some* of the time with their shield. Rogues absorb ALL types of damage ALL of the time with their shields.

    Rogues are actually steadier to heal through than warriors, because we mitigate every hit. I know it's natural to assume we're avoidance based tanks, but we aren't. We actually take extremely steady damage when buffed up. Not sure why you think we take bigger hits than warriors but less often - it's actually the other way around.
    Last edited by Maledict666; 04-26-2011 at 07:51 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maledict666 View Post
    Um, you appear to be mistaken here.

    Rogues are not avoidance tanks. I'm fairly sure we actually have less avoidance than an equivalent warrior tank. Rogues are mitigation based tanks - that's what our shields do. Rogues in fact are *easier* to heal than warriors because the damage we take is ALWAYS reduced.

    Warriors block physical damage *some* of the time with their shield. Rogues absorb ALL types of damage ALL of the time with their shields.

    Rogues are actually steadier to heal through than warriors, because we mitigate every hit. I know it's natural to assume we're avoidance based tanks, but we aren't. We actually take extremely steady damage when buffed up. Not sure why you think we take bigger hits than warriors but less often - it's actually the other way around.
    Actually I think he was more refering to what the blade-dancer seems to be "trying" to be, since its mostly based off dodge and parry while at the same time having only one innate dodge increasing skill, a 2 min CD 50% dodge increase skill and a parry buff tied to a finisher.

    I do like the idea of the blade-dancer having high Parry & Dodge as it seems to be very very similar to the Slayer/Choppa from WAR, however unlike the Slayer/Choppa it's survivability is utterly pants because of its lack of parry & dodge + trying to up parry & dodge will gimp your dps quite substantially.

    You only need to read the blade dancers flavor text to know what it's supposed to be, an Evasive line breaker DPS.

    Heck if anything the Blade-dancer could even do with a Finishing blow for hitting people below <30% hp, of course it would use your remaning combo and convert to damage, might give people something to fear when they see a Blade-dancer coming into battle.

    Basilus level 50 Rank 2 Rogue: Nightstalker, Contract Killer, Battlefield Tactician

  6. #6
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    Blade dancer isn't a tanking soul though, so if you are talking about rogue tanking I presume yhe's referring to the actual tanking soul... .

    I would agree that the Bladedancer soul is really confusing right now though - it's great as a sub-spec for tanking, but no-one can take that because you need 49+ points in Riftstalker due to riftstalker scaling. On the damage side, it's full of abiliies that only work after something fails to hit you - making it a purely levelling soul. Now, it does indeed *rock* for levelling when combined with Riftstalker but that seems a bit limited compared to other souls.

    (Personally, I'd go the whole hog and makde Bladedancer another tanking soul - warriors have 4 tank souls, may as well give rogues 2 viable tank souls.)

  7. #7
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    So I went into some warfronts, and the first thing I noticed in PvP was that all of my fellow rogues have fewer hit points than the warriors. Five minutes of investigating after the match told me why: "Gift of <classname>". Four of the warrior souls get this benefit, and they all stack, and it's quite obvious to me that it's for PvE tanking. This puts a really bad taste in my mouth - that other game I played had problems when innovative players used PvE tanking stuff in PvP. The four warrior souls that get this ability are all viable in PvP. Even estimating very conservatively, assuming a PvP warrior puts 30 points in the souls that have a "Gift-of" ability, that's a 15% benefit to health! Comparatively, the only Rogue souls which get anything like this is Riftstalker's Guardian Phase, which also comes with a hefty damage decrease. Why does the game design automatically give Warriors 15% health, or more, than everyone else? Unfair.

    You are absolutely wrong. All of the souls that get these passive hp boosts are "tank souls". They do horrid damage. A 15% hp boost for slapping 30 points in a tank soul is not "unfair" at all. Not all warriors have "15% more health" then everyone else. As I just stated, you need to stick 30 point in a TANK soul to do that. And their DPS is horrid as well (just as bad as Riftstalker with guardian phase). The reason guardian phase has that reduction is because its a huge boost for a much less point reduction, that boosts more then just hp, and could easily be combined with dps souls for a ridiculously overpowered rogue build.

    Also, the "Ranged Rogue" is simply not viable to play in pvp.

    Wrong

    8 points in the Warlord soul gives Sergeant's Orders, which completely negates the entire concept.
    No. SO (and all warrior abilities) have a 20m range max. As a ranged rogue, you have a 30-35m range on the vast majority of your abilities. If you can't kite with a 10-15m range advantage, you are doing it wrong.

    Yes, things like Repelling Shot (which requires a spent Talent point) and Retreat (40 point root) help, but the cooldowns are so long (30 seconds and 45 seconds, compared to 8 seconds for Sergeant's Orders), they are impractical. Once you get in melee range, it's over. All terrain advantages are also negated completely by SO, which can be cast every 8 seconds. I could take my time and climb up on top of a rock and set myself up, and BOOM - one SO and it's all wasted.

    Thats why you learn to kite as the best kiting class in the game.

    Melee has an inherent advantage automatically when they are chasing a Ranged, since they can use abilities during the chase, and the ranged guy can't fire behind them. (yes, there is the run/jump and spin/fire a shot, but it's not the same).
    If you can't strafe kite, you are a bad. This argument is pure nonsense.

    The whole proceeding paragraph doesn't even take into account Snares and stuns, which, if you count them up, favor the melee souls (warrior/cleric/rogue) in a huge way. Things like Forced Recon (passive snare-proc while chasing) make it worse. Of course, things like the Ranger's Escape Artist gives immunity for 4 seconds but it's not enough. Here is a typical combat sequence: Ranger fires a shot and get noticed, the warrior pulls him in, the ranger is superamazing and fires a Crippling Shot (6 second snare) in mid-air, the ranger lands and gets snared, Ranger hits Escape Artist and runs for his life, melee continues button mashing for damage, ranger cannot get out of melee range in 4 seconds anyway so its useless. In those 4 seconds, the warrior just presses both mouse buttons and uses 3 keypress abilities (1.5 second global cooldown) and probably 2 reactives (off the global) and the ranger dies.

    This is only "typical" if you are a terrible terrible player. If the warrior pulls you in, you were within 20m to begin with, which is a huge mistake. A good ranged rogue can easily kite a warrior of any build.

    On a side note, the Marksman pedestal mechanic is not a very pvp-friendly mechanic, for the reasons stated above and many others. Now, if the pedestal gave us complete CC immunity, reduced our damage taken by 30%, and gave our damaging attacks a 30% chance to stun the target 2 seconds, *then* it would be useful. In PvE it's not very friendly either, since there is so much moving around in fights. I suspect it gets even worse in greenscale. Also, the fact that the pedestal doesn't scale in a linear fashion makes things worse for pvp and pve. If you don't go 18 pts into marksman (to get the 10% pedestal), the whole soul is inferior. The next step is 51 pts (30% pedestal), and I've tried that build, it's useless too. There is no in-between.

    Yea, the pedestals are dumb. Agreed. They should most likely be passive boosts but slightly less effective.

    In the PvP soul, Cloudy Poison isn't very helpful - there are not very many casters in PvP that use non-instant spells.

    Not true.

    I don't know how to fix that without completely changing it, although I guess you could have the debuff also nullify/fizzle the next instant-cast spell that is cast. Also, the first teir of talents includes Penetrating Strikes, which gives 10% armor penetration. That is 100% useless for Nightblade, Bard, and Saboteur, which means if you would like to play those souls in PvP, you can't take anything from the left side of the pvp tree without wasting 5 talent points in armor pen.

    A lot of things are set up this way. /shrug

    Fighting a healer in PvP is hilarious. If a rogue is doing 550 dps, and a healer is doing 450 hps, we will simply never kill them. HOT spells cannot be interupted, and since they are instant, the cleric can simply keep moving (nullify the pedestal, nullify terrain advantage). While HoTs are rolling, they heal the cleric even while he is stunned or silenced.

    Thats how hots work duh. Don't complain about hots, for reals. It makes you look ridiculous.

    Fell Blades (32 pt root, Nightblade) helps a little on this, but not much.

    Are you ok? Because this is so ridiculous I can't even begin to tell you how wrong it is.

    I havent ever tried it, but I'm sure Anathema would not help, as it only lasts for 5 castings of heals. All of the healers get some type of bigger heal on cooldown, and Rogue "Burst" can't overcome the healing "Burst". I don't know where the inequity between DPS and HPS came from, but I suspect it's due to Spell Power and Attack Power not scaling the same way. (My RL cleric friend has almost 1000 spell power and I have about 500-600 attack power, depending on the build.)

    You could also you know, use CC....

    Ranger pets are inconsistent in PvE. Some boss mechanics can target them, and they die. Some mechanics are not pet-friendly, like a proximity-spreading dot. Sometimes they are immunte to boss mechanics. Sometimes the line of sight stuff matters and you can't pull out your pet in time to save him. Sometimes, the pet is immune to the line of sight stuff. It's impossible to tell. Why do King of the Jungle and Hasten Call require me to spend a talent point? Pets should be that way, automatically. Why does it take 8 seconds AND 100 energy to cast my pet? This means that if my pet dies during a trash fight, I have to wait 3-5 seconds for my energy to reach 100, and THEN another 8 seconds for the casting time.

    You have a fast summon ability. Use it.

    Self-healing is something that Rogues are really missing. Compare the Souls in the other callings to the Rogue, and you'll see what I mean. I hesitate to list them here, since I might forget some. Even the little stuff - like a Reaver's "Soul Feast" talent or a Warlock's Life Leech root ability, make a difference: even small heals are like having more Health in PvP. If the heals are bigger, like the VK's Fusion of Flesh (26 pt root, 15 second CD), they make an even bigger difference. Even something with a long cooldown, like Paladin's Touch of Life (8 pt root, 10 min CD), is clutch in PvP. Why do warriors and mages get more self-heals than Rogues? Is this by design? I realize Bards get heals, but the difference is that there is a big sacrifice in damage for bards to get the healing, but for other callings, the damage sacrifice is smaller or non-existant.

    A couple things. Soul Feast and Life Leech don't have for junk. Fusion of Flesh is absolutely awful and heals for almost nothing. Warriors do not get more self heals than Rogues (mages do, and that is by design) Bards do get heals and it isn't that big of a sacrifice on damage for bards to get self heals say, compared to Wars. Compared to mages, it is, but if you have a problem with that its more of an issue with mages have too much self heals then a rogue too little


    Rogues are severaly lacking in Reactive abilities. Wait a second, the DEXTERITY class has fewer reactive abilities than other classes? That makes no sense to me. We need reactives for ALL of the other souls besides Bladedancer - reactives that are off the global cooldown like warriors, and/or reactives that reduce the "casting time" of the next big-damage ability, like mages and clerics, or a mixture of both. I apologize for not noticing this inequity of reactives during beta.

    They could put in a few more off GCD abilities for rogues here and there. Not too many though.

    Rogues need a way to strip/purge buffs, I am sick of looking at those icons in runic descent that increase NPC golem damage by 5% with no way to strip them myself. I heard this is coming for marksman, and all I have to say is *thank you*. I feel sorry for rogues who don't play marksman, though, is there any chance to get a buff-strip mechanism for a couple of the other souls?

    Not every soul needs purges. No callings have every soul with a purge, so no, I think it is fine as is with the MM change. Both MM and Infil have a purge now.

    The Nightblade Soul looks like it would be really fun to play, but 20m range is really prohibitive. For Bard and Saboteur, 20m makes sense to me: sacrifice some range for utility. But Nightblades? I can't see any reason that Marksman and Ranger should get 35m range, and not Nightblade.

    Because NB is primarily a melee soul with some ranged attacks. I love how you say 20m range is prohibitive for a NB, and complain about warrior pulls with 20m range in the same thread.

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  8. #8
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    I'm mostly a pvper so:

    1) DPS, not my biggest concern, but mine sucks while I don't actively try to make it better

    2) Res, who cares? Didya know that mages are the only class that can not wear leather? Why should the other three be allowed to wear leather?

    3) I don't really care about warriors having more health, but I agree that we should have more benefits for investments in souls like they do

    4) You're conclusions on ranged rogues is completely wrong. So there are a handful of classes that can pull you towards them, and apparently warlords can make you attack them for 3s every 8s [You outrange that on your mm and I believe rangers], not everybody runs those specs for obvious reasons. Then again one could also come to the conclusion that it just makes any melee or ranged dpser useless as a melee dps, I don't exactly want to hit some beefy target. Also, there's a generic ability in the Warrior pvp tree that roots both the warrior and the target for some time and it's unbreakable, much worse for melee in general.

    Combined with the fact that CC hurts melee more [Rooting a melee dpser effectively makes their threat vanish, and large snares could prove deadly], whereas a ranged dps at max range suffers less of these effects.

    Sure, ranged rogues suffer some problems, but it's not that one specific skill makes them completly useless 100% of the time.

    5) Melee has an inherent disadvantage when confronting ranged classes. When the engagement begins [out of stealth] ranged dps hits first. When they're chasing the ranged dps can choose to attack in order to sacrifice survivability [in general, and this is why I can kill most pyros 1vs1 or with minor heals, they all suck and believe that they're gods], or they can flee for the hills.

    If you're talking about 1vs1 who cares? Hide on a ****ing rock and plunk plunk. I don't feel like running up a rock and can not always do so .

    If you're talking about medium/large groups then run to the middle of your group. They will die or immediatly regret it.

    6) The pedestal serves a purpose in pvp. I don't know what you mean by not very pvp friendly, it allows you to sacrifice mobility for more damage which is useful in a large number of situations [mainly those in which you are not about to die]. Why bother bunny hopping when the enemy melee dps is attacking your casters/healers?

    It's another issue of the pedestal is actually good, and on that I can not comment but I've heard from reliable people that it is not.

    7) I found no immediate use for cloudy poison and agree that it should be changed.

    8) If you are dealing 550dps and the enemy healer is recovering at a rate of 450hps then he will die eventually. At 5000 life , it'll take 50s.

    It then seems to be you droning that your build can not kill healers. I could theoretically kill healers and I believe that I have killed people that resembled mages in that their energy bar was blue but they were casting weird spells that did not cause me any damage. The issue with heals is that they're not capped meaning with a certain amount of healers one side will never die [without ff and probably cc's]. I don't know the number, but if I'd have to guess it's close to four.

    Anathema helps most of the time [there were cases of healers healing to full with both anathema and fell blades, but I didn't check my logs so it might've been multiple big heals from multiple healers]. Also on their big heals, you have tools at your disposal to make it not happen, most of the time [I'm not sure if there's instant big heals, I'd guess that there are a couple but most of the ones I see have a twoish second cast time]. Spec infiltrator, use a cc, use anathema. Have your RL cleric friend use a cc.

    Whatever) Whatever

    I don't know the number) Look at the tree and try to think more.

    11) Again, I don't pve but I heard that RS's are better tanks than Warriors for the most part.

    12) I never really thought about self healing and I've never been in a postion where I thought I lost due to not healing myself. Sins have leeching poison, it didn't seem too good when I used it but I'm not really the type of player that plays as a sin. The paladin 10min heal is ******** in 1vs1 and not always useful in warfronts. If I had the option of something like the paladin big heal or a ranged mezz that requires stealth than I'd choose the mezz.

    13) I have no feeling on the subject of reactive abilities, as they're completly trivialized by macros.

    14) I have a buff stripping ability.

    15) ? 20m range is prohibitive for a melee-ranged hybrid class? No, not really. If I had my 20m ranged abilities turned into a 30m ranged ability I'd laugh and not use it any differently [catching runners and maybe mm/rangers would be easier, that's it]

    16) I do suffer energy issues but I'm not sure how one go about this. I've seen mages/clerics run out of energy and be completly useless but that's not a common sight.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    Ahhh so much to comment about, so little time... Let's take it from the top...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    DPS. PvE Rogue DPS (and PvP, for that matter) is simply not as high as the other callings. This means that any group of 5 containing 2 rogues automatically starts off behind the eight ball. That means it's harder for rogues to get into groups, which sucks. Cleric DPS is higher than Rogue DPS? To quote our good friend Willy Wonka: "Strike that, reverse it".
    I some aspects this is true. However, with the exception of warriors, if you know your spec and have a good rotation, there is no reason you should be far behind, if at all behind equal geared mages/clerics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    RESURRECT. I heard rumors this is coming for Rogues, but I'm including this observation for completeness' sake. There is absolutely no reason that 3 callings get resurrect and not 4. Soul Walk is a brilliant game mechanic, and is great for wipe recovery when trying new content or for stupid mishaps on farm content, intended or not. Give Rogues resurrect, and I mean give it to 2 or 3 rogue souls, not just one. What if you give the resurrect to Riftstalker, but a rogue does not want to maintain a Tanking spec at all? (On a side note, the Warrior and Mage callings should get more resurrects, too. Similar to my Riftstalker arguement, if a warrior does not want to maintain a paladin spec, he shouldn't have to keep one, just for access to resurrect.)
    Please illustrate an instance where a rogue would NEED a res. Why would rogues need 2-3 souls at that with a res?... I'm baffled by why people insist rogues should be able to res. Sounds like a case peen envy to me.
    "I want one too!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    So I went into some warfronts, and the first thing I noticed in PvP was that all of my fellow rogues have fewer hit points than the warriors. Five minutes of investigating after the match told me why: "Gift of <classname>". Four of the warrior souls get this benefit, and they all stack, and it's quite obvious to me that it's for PvE tanking. This puts a really bad taste in my mouth - that other game I played had problems when innovative players used PvE tanking stuff in PvP. The four warrior souls that get this ability are all viable in PvP. Even estimating very conservatively, assuming a PvP warrior puts 30 points in the souls that have a "Gift-of" ability, that's a 15% benefit to health! Comparatively, the only Rogue souls which get anything like this is Riftstalker's Guardian Phase, which also comes with a hefty damage decrease. Why does the game design automatically give Warriors 15% health, or more, than everyone else? Unfair.
    If they want to spec that high into defensive souls for pvp, let them. Warlord would be the best for pvp synergy, but dropping 30 points into for 15% health is not what warriors who actually want to get kills are thinking about. B-b-but, they stack! Oh noes! Whether you have one 'gift' or three, as long as you spec the same total points into a soul with a gift, it doesn't matter how many times over it stacks buffs. 10 reaver, 10 pally, 10 vk is going to get me the same hp % from buffs as 30 reaver... Fair

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    Also, the "Ranged Rogue" is simply not viable to play in pvp. 8 points in the Warlord soul gives Sergeant's Orders, which completely negates the entire concept. Yes, things like Repelling Shot (which requires a spent Talent point) and Retreat (40 point root) help, but the cooldowns are so long (30 seconds and 45 seconds, compared to 8 seconds for Sergeant's Orders), they are impractical. Once you get in melee range, it's over. All terrain advantages are also negated completely by SO, which can be cast every 8 seconds. I could take my time and climb up on top of a rock and set myself up, and BOOM - one SO and it's all wasted.
    Sergeant's Order-range 20m... Most MM/Ranger damage skills-35m, Sab-30m. See your first mistake? Also, you have legs right? KITE! All three ranged classes have a slows, root breaks, and/or movement increase to create distance between you and your target when things get close, use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    Melee has an inherent advantage automatically when they are chasing a Ranged, since they can use abilities during the chase, and the ranged guy can't fire behind them. (yes, there is the run/jump and spin/fire a shot, but it's not the same). The whole proceeding paragraph doesn't even take into account Snares and stuns, which, if you count them up, favor the melee souls (warrior/cleric/rogue) in a huge way. Things like Forced Recon (passive snare-proc while chasing) make it worse. Of course, things like the Ranger's Escape Artist gives immunity for 4 seconds but it's not enough. Here is a typical combat sequence: Ranger fires a shot and get noticed, the warrior pulls him in, the ranger is superamazing and fires a Crippling Shot (6 second snare) in mid-air, the ranger lands and gets snared, Ranger hits Escape Artist and runs for his life, melee continues button mashing for damage, ranger cannot get out of melee range in 4 seconds anyway so its useless. In those 4 seconds, the warrior just presses both mouse buttons and uses 3 keypress abilities (1.5 second global cooldown) and probably 2 reactives (off the global) and the ranger dies.
    Idk what to tell you... Besides the fact that you shouldn't expect to beat a warrior 1v1 without working for it, if you can't get out of melee range when: 1) your target is snared, 2) you're snare free, then you're just not cut out for pvp. Sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    On a side note, the Marksman pedestal mechanic is not a very pvp-friendly mechanic, for the reasons stated above and many others. Now, if the pedestal gave us complete CC immunity, reduced our damage taken by 30%, and gave our damaging attacks a 30% chance to stun the target 2 seconds, *then* it would be useful. In PvE it's not very friendly either, since there is so much moving around in fights. I suspect it gets even worse in greenscale. Also, the fact that the pedestal doesn't scale in a linear fashion makes things worse for pvp and pve. If you don't go 18 pts into marksman (to get the 10% pedestal), the whole soul is inferior. The next step is 51 pts (30% pedestal), and I've tried that build, it's useless too. There is no in-between.
    We all can agree that GoS is overwhelming in pvp to say the least. PVE doesn't have nearly as much of a place. Immune to CC? pretty sure bosses will find a way around that. -30% damage? Without it you can survive regular boss mechanics, why have it? 30% 2sec stun, awesome! I'll be sure to spam my 1 sec gcd's to near permastun anything in my path... Wait, it doesn't work on bosses you say? damn q_q
    There are plenty of "move away, move back" fights throughout the game, which is nothing to complain about. Sitting in a lawn chair hurling bombs or shooting arrows doing max dps is boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    In the PvP soul, Cloudy Poison isn't very helpful - there are not very many casters in PvP that use non-instant spells. I don't know how to fix that without completely changing it, although I guess you could have the debuff also nullify/fizzle the next instant-cast spell that is cast. Also, the first teir of talents includes Penetrating Strikes, which gives 10% armor penetration. That is 100% useless for Nightblade, Bard, and Saboteur, which means if you would like to play those souls in PvP, you can't take anything from the left side of the pvp tree without wasting 5 talent points in armor pen.
    I agree, the utility of Cloudy Poison is not as great as I hoped it would be. Only decent targets are healers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    Fighting a healer in PvP is hilarious. If a rogue is doing 550 dps, and a healer is doing 450 hps, we will simply never kill them. HOT spells cannot be interupted, and since they are instant, the cleric can simply keep moving (nullify the pedestal, nullify terrain advantage). While HoTs are rolling, they heal the cleric even while he is stunned or silenced. Fell Blades (32 pt root, Nightblade) helps a little on this, but not much. I havent ever tried it, but I'm sure Anathema would not help, as it only lasts for 5 castings of heals. All of the healers get some type of bigger heal on cooldown, and Rogue "Burst" can't overcome the healing "Burst". I don't know where the inequity between DPS and HPS came from, but I suspect it's due to Spell Power and Attack Power not scaling the same way. (My RL cleric friend has almost 1000 spell power and I have about 500-600 attack power, depending on the build.)
    Stay humble. Certain healers won't go down easy, but they do drop, and you may need help to do so. I don't have a problem managing stuns and interrupts. Wait for an opening. No point in stunning/cc a target fully HoT'd just to take a sliver of hp. I've seen rogues do it, I am capable of doing it, it's not impossible.
    Oh, and 1000 SP + 10-20% crit rate vs 500-600 AP + 35-50% crit rate. I think it weighs out close enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    Ranger pets are inconsistent in PvE. Some boss mechanics can target them, and they die. Some mechanics are not pet-friendly, like a proximity-spreading dot. Sometimes they are immunte to boss mechanics. Sometimes the line of sight stuff matters and you can't pull out your pet in time to save him. Sometimes, the pet is immune to the line of sight stuff. It's impossible to tell. Why do King of the Jungle and Hasten Call require me to spend a talent point? Pets should be that way, automatically. Why does it take 8 seconds AND 100 energy to cast my pet? This means that if my pet dies during a trash fight, I have to wait 3-5 seconds for my energy to reach 100, and THEN another 8 seconds for the casting time.
    I don't like pet classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    The Bladedancer soul makes no sense to me. A talent in the first tree that gives 1-5% dodge? This isn't a tanking soul. The other talent is 1-5% hit. Hit? Every rogue is more than cap'd on Hit, this talent is just a waste of space. I haven't looked at the cleric/warrior/mage souls, but I don't remember any talents like this one. (If they are present in those other calling's souls, they are useless there also.) Essentially, if I'd like to use the Bladedancer soul, it is either (a) a secondary soul to Riftstalker tanking or (b) waste 5 talent points in a first-tier talent I don't want.
    I love to read stuff like this because I play BD and I stay high on the charts with this "broken/useless" soul. If you are more than capped on hit, that means you are not geared to your potential. 5% hit allows you to drop hit off gear in order to take up more AP, crit, parry, or dodge. Not to mention it gives rogue tanks more place to stack toughness without worrying about missing. 5% dodge is more pvp than pve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    Self-healing is something that Rogues are really missing. Compare the Souls in the other callings to the Rogue, and you'll see what I mean. I hesitate to list them here, since I might forget some. Even the little stuff - like a Reaver's "Soul Feast" talent or a Warlock's Life Leech root ability, make a difference: even small heals are like having more Health in PvP. If the heals are bigger, like the VK's Fusion of Flesh (26 pt root, 15 second CD), they make an even bigger difference. Even something with a long cooldown, like Paladin's Touch of Life (8 pt root, 10 min CD), is clutch in PvP. Why do warriors and mages get more self-heals than Rogues? Is this by design? I realize Bards get heals, but the difference is that there is a big sacrifice in damage for bards to get the healing, but for other callings, the damage sacrifice is smaller or non-existant.
    Once again, defensive souls vs a dps calling. If you want to chip away an enemy bit by bit while self healing, reroll. We bring the wood, not the band aids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    Rogues are severaly lacking in Reactive abilities. Wait a second, the DEXTERITY class has fewer reactive abilities than other classes? That makes no sense to me. We need reactives for ALL of the other souls besides Bladedancer - reactives that are off the global cooldown like warriors, and/or reactives that reduce the "casting time" of the next big-damage ability, like mages and clerics, or a mixture of both. I apologize for not noticing this inequity of reactives during beta.
    There are a few, there could be more, but then energy would drain that much faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    Rogues need a way to strip/purge buffs, I am sick of looking at those icons in runic descent that increase NPC golem damage by 5% with no way to strip them myself. I heard this is coming for marksman, and all I have to say is *thank you*. I feel sorry for rogues who don't play marksman, though, is there any chance to get a buff-strip mechanism for a couple of the other souls?
    Blame the able bodied purgers for not doing a good enough job if this is your complaint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    The Nightblade Soul looks like it would be really fun to play, but 20m range is really prohibitive. For Bard and Saboteur, 20m makes sense to me: sacrifice some range for utility. But Nightblades? I can't see any reason that Marksman and Ranger should get 35m range, and not Nightblade.
    Maybe because it's meant to be a melee class with ranged utility? Idk, try that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    We are still occasionally energy starved. I realize there is an argument that goes something like "well if Energy didn't matter, why would the resource exist?" That would be fine, except all I hear on vent is clerics saying "my mana is fine, I can't run out" and mages that say "I have infinite mana". Maybe they are using abilities to get mana back or something, but it certainly doesn't reflect in their DPS or healing capabilities. What's the deal? I want infinite energy. Or a way to get energy back without having to sacrifice DPS. It only seems fair.
    We can keep up even with this hinderance in our mechanic. I'm indifferent on whether they change it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
    Lastly, a nice way of re-directing threat would really help, something similar to the Saboteur's Incriminate, for the other Souls.
    Would you look at that, I can agree with this too!

  10. #10
    Ascendant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blays View Post
    Dude... ahhhh..... i dont know what else to say but read more forums i guess... and L2P

    Iv been PvPing as a 51 Sin, BD, Sab and MM and they all have an equal chance vs any other class but Healers.
    Sabs dominate PvE and only good warriors come out above Sabs in a melee friendly fight.
    NB/Sin or Sab/Rnr put out insane numbers, leaving even warriors behind.

    really L2P
    Good lord don't listen to this post. Horrible horrible advice.

    OP, you are right on many many points. The biggest issues currently are AP scaling and energy regen.

    Off gcd is another huge one, but that mainly only relates to pvp burst, whereas the other two I mentioned affect both pve and pvp.

    In a nutshell:

    1) Rogues should have a Rez
    2) Rogues should have access to a purge (not 44 points into a tree)
    3) Rogues should have some different/better skills in the pvp tree (get an interrupt in the offensive tree, except almost NO one casts non-instant cast spells, so it's useless)
    4) Rogues don't have nearly enough (as many) off-gcd reactive abilities compared to other classes
    5) Energy regen is an issue with only having 1-2 anilities to reduce energy consumption
    6) Rogues AP scaling is no where near as good as it should be, or gear does not have enough AP attached to it, compared to spell power
    7) Rogues have physical damage attacks primarily in about 4-5 souls. Armor is mitigating a lot of the damage of the rogue abilities, whereas magical defense values cannot reach a similar type of mitigation due to it's limited availability, or without sacrificing dps... Which no one else has to do due to everyone equipping armor.

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