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Thread: [Bard] Prototype for a Support/DPS Bard (With No Motif Spam!)

  1. #1
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    Default [Bard] Prototype for a Support/DPS Bard (With No Motif Spam!)

    I guess the title is enough description. I did this because to show what the Bard could be instead of the mismatch it is right now. It's probably overpowered, but bear in my mind that I don't have any ways to truly balance those numbers, what really matters is the design ideas!

    So take a look, I accept feedback and rage equally! Enjoy.


    0 - Points
    =====

    Cadence
    50 Energy 20 Meter Range
    Instant
    Channeled
    The Rogue continuously strums the Lute, dealing [Little] weapon plus Life damage over 2 seconds....

    Motif of Heroism
    25 Energy
    Instant
    Plays a Motif that increases Attack Power, Spell Power, Critical Hit Chance and Spell Critical Hit Chance of other party and raid members by 5%. Lasts 30 Seconds.

    2 - Points
    =====

    Coda of Wrath - Same

    4 - Points
    =====

    Fanfare of Vigor - Removed

    Chant of Rage
    20 Energy
    Instant
    30 Seconds
    Shout a chant that increase your strength. Increase your damage by 25% for 15 sec.

    8 - Points
    =====

    Fanfare of Vigor - Unchanged

    10 - Points
    ======

    Anthem of Competence - Moved

    Coda of Degeneration
    40 Energy 20 Meter Range
    Instant
    Has the effect of Coda of Cowardice and Coda of Distress fused.

    12 - Points
    ======

    Motif of Tenacity removed, too powerful for PvP, create balance problems for PvE.

    Verse of Astonishment
    Instant
    1 Minute
    Play a verse that stupefy an enemy. Reduce an enemy movement speed by 50% for 5 sec.

    14 - Points
    ======

    Chant of Ruthlessness
    20 Energy
    Instant
    1 Minute
    Shout a chant that increase your viciousness. Increase your Critical Hit Chance by 20% for 15 sec.

    16 - Points
    =====

    Fanfare of Power - Unchanged

    18 - Points
    =====

    Ballad of Encouragement
    25 Energy
    Instant
    30 seconds
    Increase the damage of an ally other than the Rogue by 15%. Also reduce their threat by 10%. Does not trigger the global cooldown.

    20 - Points
    =====

    Anthem of Competence

    24 - Points
    =====

    Verse of Courage
    50 Energy
    Instant
    Play a verse that reduce the damage taken by party and raid members by 10% for 15 seconds. Affected allies become Exhausted and cannot benefit from Verse of Courage or Verse of Joy again for 5 min.

    28 - Points
    =====

    Chant of Tenacity
    20 Energy
    Instant
    1 Minute
    Shout a chant that fortify your body. Reduce your damage taken by 50% for 5 seconds.

    32 - Points
    =====

    Anthem of Fervor - Same

    34 - Points
    =====

    Verse of Captivation - Range increased to 30 Meters.

    36 - Points
    =====

    Verse of Vengeance
    100 Energy 30 Meter Range
    10 Minutes
    Ashame the fallen ally and urge it to finish the fight. Restore 50% of their health and mana. This ability is usable in combat.

    Motif of Company ( = Motif of Encouragment, it's cute, don't hate on it )

    40 - Points
    =====

    Verse of Joy - Unchanged

    44 - Points
    =====

    Verse of Disturbance
    50 Energy
    2 Seconds
    2 Minutes
    Play a verse that fires a wave of sound that deals High Damage to an enemy and knock back every enemies surrounding the target, slowing them by 50% for 5 secs.

    51 - Points
    =====

    Ballad of Life
    25 Energy
    Instant
    10 Minutes
    Surround an ally other than the Rogue with the song of life, as long as the song is active on the target, death is prevented, instead the target is healed for 25% of its maximum health and the song wears off.

    or (as I really hesitated between the two)

    Verse of Purity
    3 Seconds
    3 Minutes
    Remove 2 Harmful Effects on your allies surrounding you and remove 2 Beneficial Effects on enemies surrounding you, in a radius of 20 Meter.

    ==========================

    Tier 1
    • Good Health - Unchanged
    • Bardic Inspiration - Removed
    • Replaced with Enjoyment: Increase your Critical Chance Damage by 4/8/12/16/20%
    Tier 2
    • Talented Composer - Removed (Motif of Heroism has the 30 meter range already)
    • Instead Talented Composer: Increase your Life damage by 5/10%
    • Anthem of Glory - Unchanged
    • Street Smart - Increase your enemy Hit and Critical Hit Chance against you and increase your Hit Chance by 1/2/3%
    • Invigorated Soul removed!
    • Instead Invigorating Motif: Your Motif of Heroism give you a 5/10% to deal weapon (ranged or melee) damage to your target.
    • Added Verse of Contentment: 30 Energy, Instant, 1 min CD, Magically inspire an ally, healing for (25%) health.

    Tier 3
    • Street Performer - Fused with Old Stage Presence.
    • Power Chord - Deal 5-cp Finisher Level Damage.
    • New Stage Presence: Whenever you deal critical damage with a spell or attack, your Critical Hit Chance increase by 1/3/5% for 3 seconds, stacks up to 3 times.

    Tier 4
    • Coda of Fury - Unchanged
    • Ballad of Freedom: Instant, 1 Min CD: Remove all movement-impairing effect on the target ally other than the Rogue and increase their movement speed by 100% for 5 seconds
    • Deafening Music - Unchanged
    • Extended Grief - Changed
    • Instead Extended Grief: When you deal weapon damage to an enemy affected by your Coda of Degeneration, you have a 5/10% chance to increase your damage by 1% for 15 sec, stacks up to 5 times.

    Tier 5
    • Coda of Restoration - Moved to Tier 7, only true Bards get it!
    • Replaced by Unison: Whenever you are under the effect of both Chant of Rage and Chant of Ruthlessness, your Cadence channel 2 times faster for the same damage and combo points.
    • Triumphant Spirit - Changed
    • Instead Increase the amount healed by Verse of Contentment by 10/20/30%
    • Riff - Changed - Now has Nuke Level Damage. Still provide 5 CPs!
    • Improved Anthem of Competence - Unchanged

    Tier 6
    • Verse of Fascination - Unchanged
    • Coda of Restoration - 1.5-2X the amount healed but get a 1 Minute CD to prevent people from not DPSing.
    • Resonance - Removed
    • Replaced with Echoes: Your Finishers have a 2/4/6/8/10% chance to heal a party or raid member with the lowest health for their damage. This effect cannot happen more than once every 20 seconds.

    Tier 7
    • Virtuoso: Changed - Now apply to all Rogue Finishers.

    Again don't focus too much on the numbers but more on the ideas!
    Last edited by ControlBlue; 04-23-2011 at 04:12 AM.
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

  2. #2
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    the ideas are there and i like that you replace candence spamming for healing with finishers only but now with increased values would make the gameplay more involved from a healer stand point, but like you said alot of it is over the top. Especially since you can get alot of the defensive + damage increasing stuff pretty easy with only 31 points invested for virtuoso spam since you want it to work with all finishers making it idea to sub spec into other DPS trees which could just break other builds into godmode while still having alot of the healing options.

    am not saying i hate what you think should be changed but numbers aside you gotta look at it in the big picture so if someone important saw this, they wouldnt just dismiss it and say its just another class that wants to be overpowered. since alot of this would be uqinue to the class and a step in the right direction for improve the bard.
    Last edited by Veenix; 04-23-2011 at 05:38 AM.

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    tbh I don't think they'd ever make it into such a self focused, somewhat pvp orientated build...

    Personally I would rather them keep things more or less as they are just tweak things a bit.

    My suggestion:

    Cadence: 40 energy, deals current damage every second over 6 seconds, while channeled certain musical abilities will do added effects.

    --

    Motif of Bravery: Current effect, if played while cadence is channeling the target of the cadence is hit for weapon damage + (upto) 100 fire damage, grants echo of bravery to the bard, this increases the damage dealt by cadence by 10% and can be stacked upto 5 times, lasts 10 seconds. Does not interupt cadence channel.

    --

    Motif of Focus: Current effect, if played while cadence is channeling the target of the cadence is hit for weapon damage + (upto) 100 air damage, grants echo of focus to the bards team granting 3% more critical damage stacking upto 5 times, lasts 10 seconds. Does not interupt cadence channel.

    --

    Motif of Tenacity: Current effect, if played while cadence is channeling the target of the cadence is hit for weapon damage + (upto) 100 earth damage, applies echo of tenacity to the target of the bards cadence, increasing the damage they take by 2% stacking upto 5 times, lasts 10 seconds. Does not interupt cadence channel.

    --

    Motif of Regeneration: Current Effect, if played while cadence is channeling heals upto 5 members of the bards team for upto 100 health, applies echo of regeneration to 5 people in the bards team healing them for 100 health over 10 seconds stacking upto 5 times, lasts 10 seconds. Does not interupt cadence channel.

    --

    Motif of Granduer: Current effect, if played while cadence is channeling the target of the cadence is hit for weapon damage + (upto) 100 life damage, applies echo of granduer to the bard causing cadence to heal 20% of its damage to 5 party and raid members stacks upto 5 times (stacks with the 100% from invigorated soul), lasts 10 seconds. Does not interupt cadence channel.

    --

    Motif of Encouragement: Current effect, if played while cadence is channeling summons a critter to attack the target, upto 5 critters can be summoned at 1 time and they will remain untill cadence ends.

    --

    Power Chord: Current effect, if played while cadence is channeling it will restart the cadence channel.

    --

    Riff: Current effect, if played while cadence is channeling it will restart the cadence channel and add 1 stack to every echo the bard has running.

    --

    Coda of Wrath: Current effect, if played while cadence is channeled it will end the cadence channel and the target will an additional 50% of wraths damage over 5 seconds.

    --

    Coda of Cowardice: Current effect, if played while cadence is channeled it will end the cadence channel and the target will take an additional 25% critical damage from physical crits for 5 seconds.

    --

    Coda of Distress: Current effect, if played while cadence is channeled it will end the cadence channel and the target will take an additional 25% critical damage from non-physical crits for 5 seconds.

    --

    Coda of Fury: Current effect, if played while cadence is channeled it will cause all of the bards musical debuffs on the target to spread to 8 near by enemies.

    --

    Virtuoso: Current Effect, if played while cadence is channeled Coda's no longer end the cadence channel while virtuoso is active.

    --

    Talent Bardic Inspiration: Increases length of all echos by 2 seconds per rank in addition to motif duration.

    Or something like that, so its more like the bard is playing a contiunous song rather than just short notes.
    Last edited by Dasorine; 04-23-2011 at 08:41 AM.

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    oops forgot coda of restorations boost, probably something like 10% more healing taken by the people healed by it for 10 seconds

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    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Hey Dasorine, that's an interesting mechanic you got here. However I don't know if it is possible to implement with he way channeling works. Anyway, now that I'm awake, I guess I have some explanation due.

    The main purpose of this soul tree is to have Bards finally able to do competitive dps, and still be a support soul. As you can see there are numerous abilities that promote helping your group in an abstract way, and more importantly, you can affect any situation one way or the other either in PvE or PvP, truly what a Bard should be about.

    Also there is the existence of a rotation! This rotation is based on the application of Motif of Heroism on you, and the application of Coda of Degeneration on the target. Once those two effects are in place, they give you further bonus that increase your dps but are dependent on your Hit and Critical Hit Chance. What you want is coordinate your dps Chants (Chant of Rage and Chant of Ruthlessness) to have them up when your Extended Grief and Stage Presence are at their maximum. And whenever you have both Chants on, Cadence is expected to be potent enough of a dps increase that whatever build you have, you will want spam it for the duration of Unison.

    Overall I think it would be an involving rotation, that would not ask you to do everything perfectly but would truly reward you if you maintain a certain level of attention. Which I think it's the purpose of all game, a test of wits and skills!

    Coupled with the fact that you finally a defensive CD (Chant of Tenacity), a mass defensive CD that make you desirable to groups, coupled with Verse of Joy (which is supposed to cause Exhaustion, for got to put it), and you have more CC than you could ever use, with a slow, a mez, and a mass mez. You also have a way to give this guy standing in the fire a chance to get out of it faster with Ballad of Freedom, while Ballad of Encouragement make you truly and actively desirable to your group dpsers (this is something that would make people want to have multiple rogues, would of course not stack for obvious reasons).

    Overall that's a very potent set of abilities that both enable Bards to be ok dps, and great and active support.
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

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    I dont think it would be that hard to make the channel work in such a way, we already have the ability to have channels that don't interrupt while moving, I wouldn't think it would be that hard for them to make certain abilities not interrupt the channel when used, heck I think some non gcd abilities may already not interrupt a channel but I'd have to check.

    My 2 real issues with your suggestion really are the fact that your making bards rely yet again on short duration buffs and this time they have cooldowns on them as well, and the other fact is it seems a lot of the stuff is looking more to just benefit the rogue by himself rather than the team in general even outside increased contribution on the damage meters, I mean outside of pvp and perhaps the odd pve soloing of elites where would the chant of tenacity come in handy? The bard should never be the one taking the damage.

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    @Control -- At first I kind of liked where you were going until I got to the branch changes...

    It feels pretty chaotic and not cohesive (not that current are all that great either) and some abilities are downright overpowered.

    I generally agree that changes need to be made to the bard soul, and motifs are a big contributer to that, but I think I have to agree with Dasorine's line of thinking a little bit more. They need to make it so that motifs are more involved and not something that you hit 5 in a row every 30seconds.

    I really liked where you were going with chants.... short duration medium cooldown self buffs to ramp up your own abilities (assuming baseline isn't changed much) but have to completely disagree with the changes to coda of restoration.

    Also.... power cord doing 5cp level damage on a 3sec cooldown? Good ideas but definately far from a finished product I would think. Stick with it cause something definately does need to be done with the soul to make it more viable and engaging.

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    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    My 2 real issues with your suggestion really are the fact that your making bards rely yet again on short duration buffs and this time they have cooldowns on them as well, and the other fact is it seems a lot of the stuff is looking more to just benefit the rogue by himself rather than the team in general even outside increased contribution on the damage meters, I mean outside of pvp and perhaps the odd pve soloing of elites where would the chant of tenacity come in handy? The bard should never be the one taking the damage.
    The cooldown on Chant of Ruthlessness and Rage is to reward coordination in the dps game of the Bard. You achieve maximum dps by coordinating the 2 DPS Chants with the different buffs of the spec.

    The tree achieve giving at the same time giving you tools to help yourself AND help others. You still have your fanfares and anthems, and now you have 2 raid wide abilities to help the raid and yourself (Verse of Joy and Tenacity). And as you said, Bard should not take damage in PvE, BUT if they do having a CD will save them and enable them to live instead of just dying and becoming a hassle to the raid. So that where Chant of Tenacity would be useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by gulain View Post
    @Control -- At first I kind of liked where you were going until I got to the branch changes...

    It feels pretty chaotic and not cohesive (not that current are all that great either) and some abilities are downright overpowered.

    I generally agree that changes need to be made to the bard soul, and motifs are a big contributer to that, but I think I have to agree with Dasorine's line of thinking a little bit more. They need to make it so that motifs are more involved and not something that you hit 5 in a row every 30seconds.

    I really liked where you were going with chants.... short duration medium cooldown self buffs to ramp up your own abilities (assuming baseline isn't changed much) but have to completely disagree with the changes to coda of restoration.

    Also.... power cord doing 5cp level damage on a 3sec cooldown? Good ideas but definately far from a finished product I would think. Stick with it cause something definately does need to be done with the soul to make it more viable and engaging.
    I don't have the tools and I'm not paid to do this so don't expect a professional grade thing :P. The problem with the motif is how do you keep them and actually create a rotation or have them do something with so much of them?

    The nerf to CoR is to prevent people to think they are here to heal. Occasionally they will help the group by throwing a CoR when really needed, but other than that they have to dps! Even by dps well, with Echoes they can actually help saving the most injured person in their raid. Again this is not their focus, but truly this is something you will look forward to proc and actually make you want to pull good dps.

    Power Cord could use a longer CD I guess, it need to be something any DPS soul and Bards should look forward to throwing for good damage! The CD matter less than the force of the impact here! Also I think Chant of Tenacity could use becoming a Verse, it would allow for more helping others, seems like something that could make the Bard even MORE desirable in numbers in PvP, 5, or 20mans
    Last edited by ControlBlue; 04-28-2011 at 08:44 AM.
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

  9. #9
    Koe
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    Stopped reading when you gave the bard buffs just for himself to boost DPS numbers.

    No.


    You want to DPS, stop playing Bard. A Support role.
    Last edited by Koe; 04-28-2011 at 09:02 AM.

  10. #10
    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    Stopped reading when you gave the bard buffs just for himself to boost DPS numbers.

    No.


    You want to DPS, stop playing Bard. A Support role.
    I didn't expected less from you.

    You are still wrong though.
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

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    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    Stopped reading when you gave the bard buffs just for himself to boost DPS numbers.

    No.


    You want to DPS, stop playing Bard. A Support role.
    Pretty sure noone is rolling 66 point bard.... just saying where is the synergy with the +centrics?
    Last edited by ShalarLight; 04-28-2011 at 10:20 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

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    I've had a decent time with a bard51/bd15 build.


    twin strike mobs then use coda's for finishers if cadence spamming isn't needed to keep people alive, add to that a dexterity buff to give out when using fanfare of knowledge, slows and interupts and sidesteps for those occasions where tank doesn't agro all the mobs right away.

    Also seen it used well by rangers and marksmen.

    A lot of people forget that coda's don't need cadence to fire off so unless you absolutely must be healing as much as possible you don't have to use it.

  13. #13
    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    I've had a decent time with a bard51/bd15 build.


    twin strike mobs then use coda's for finishers if cadence spamming isn't needed to keep people alive, add to that a dexterity buff to give out when using fanfare of knowledge, slows and interupts and sidesteps for those occasions where tank doesn't agro all the mobs right away.

    Also seen it used well by rangers and marksmen.

    A lot of people forget that coda's don't need cadence to fire off so unless you absolutely must be healing as much as possible you don't have to use it.
    Wait what O.o???? BD and Bard??? I have to admit, I'm surprised!! Don't think you will be able to do much DPS with only 15 points in BD, and the motifs must be killing your rotation....
    Without the healing you become even more of a buff bot sooo I dont know...
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

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    I dont do massive dps (though hitting multiples does help bring it up) and certainly wouldn't want someone signing up as dps with that as their dps combination, but it works quite well, and rotation wise just shift to motifs for one of your rotations every 30 seconds.

    I would point out that this is my support role I use this in.

    If I was going to make a dps role with a heavy bard tilt I'd not got the full 51

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