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Thread: [Bard] The SUPPORT idea need to die!

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Default [Bard] The SUPPORT idea need to die!

    As the title say, the idea of the Bard being there only for the enjoyment of other people and that we have to be this guy who is in the back and is only here to only make other people effective, this idea need to die or the Bard is never going to achieve its true potential.

    I saw this thread where some guy was complaining about how is Bard was useless in pvp, the reactions were pretty divided, we had this guy who said op was a noob and didn't knew how to play his class, this other guy who pretty say that Bard was a bad option if you wanted to 1v1 people and that are here for the buffs only, and the other type was agreed that they felt useless. Oh and you had that cleric say how much HE enjoyed the presence of a Bard, sure HE is the one who get to do something thanks to us.

    Personally I think if you think like the first and second guy, I hate you. First off, sure Bards have some great CCs, and they provide buffs that in the long run reduce a lot of damage and contribute a lot of healing. However the truth is the soul lack the capacity to interact with a situation. Sure you heal a lot, but did you heal when it mattered? Did you suddenly saved this guy that was being nuked and enabled him to kill the fang carrier? Did you drop this target that was going to heal that guy back to 100%? As a Bard, of course you didn't!

    As only a support, you bring nothing significant. If support is only about providing buffs and CC, than it is near uselss. In a raid environment CC is not that needed and in PvP you need the damage for the CC to be relevant. The buffs shouldn't even be considered as an aspect of the souls, as everyone can provide buffs. You either deals damage or prevent it, neither of does are performed at a significant extent by Bards.

    The situation of the Bard soul is simple. We only have one way to TRULY help in a situation, our CCs, other than that, we are near useless. An extra dps or heals would be better for your raid than your buffs, thats the sad truth, and they would also provide CC. Centering the Bard soul around buffs is a MASSIVE mistake, there is nothing fun about provide buffs for other people, there is no decision or gaming around it, not only that, the buffs in the Bard soul interact terribly with the souls of the calling.

    The motifs cannot be included into any dps, or even tanking, rotation, so no other souls will go out of their way to get them. The heals in the soul are too weak and too high in the tree for other souls to consider. The utilities like Verse of Joy or Virtuoso are too impractical for dps or tanking. Nothing in this soul (except Good Health, Street Wise, and the Armor Anthem for tanking) fit in our calling, at this point Bard is condemned to have you invest heavily in to get anything meaningful. If the souls had healing abilities low in the tree, and more CC in it, then it would become attractive to other souls of the calling. If more abilities were open to other souls of the Calling, like having Riff inflicting more damage, essentially being a nuke when coupled with a finisher, or Virtuoso applying to all Rogue finishers, then the tree would find a purpose. Of course it would require changing the soul from a whatever centered soul to a dps soul, which would finally give it a purpose.

    It's all about giving the soul a purpose, is it going to dps, tank, or heal, anything other than that is USELESS in the current mmorpg paradigm (gotta love the holy trinity). Support does nothing by itself, the Bard soul need to find its purpose, we don't know if we are supposed to be healers or dps. Archons and Dominators have the advantage of having synergy with the other heals or dps of their trees. A Dominator can actually do damage with another soul and still apply his CCs and an Archon can still heal thanks to having synergy with Chloro. Bard have neither of those options, a Bard will in all cases have mediocre dps and healing.

    In summary, people need to stop saying that its ok that the class is terrible since its a support class, nobody plays a game to be terrible. Yes people want to be able to be good by themselves, nobody want to never have a chance when there is not like 10 other people with them, there is nothing fun and useful about just being support. I bought this game to be a Bard, Bard is a signature soul for the game, and I'm sure a lot of people share my opinion about that, making it a useless soul was a terrible idea, make up your mind Trion and make it useful at something and be actually good at it.
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Default Love Bards

    I Love the bard mechanics, and Rift really nailed the look and feel of bard. If they could do something to make the class a bit more usable instead of just a minor heal, mostly when not needed, or minor dps, mostly when its needed most. Currently the way bards are I agree with the first guy, also back in DDO a guy I was doing shroud with refused to take a bard because he said, "Bards are good for buffing, then getting out of raid". Sad but bards here have about the same use, except their buffs are not long enough to account for much there either.

  3. #3
    Rift Chaser Devious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ControlBlue View Post
    As the title say, the idea of the Bard being there only for the enjoyment of other people and that we have to be this guy who is in the back and is only here to only make other people effective, this idea need to die or the Bard is never going to achieve its true potential.

    I saw this thread where some guy was complaining about how is Bard was useless in pvp, the reactions were pretty divided, we had this guy who said op was a noob and didn't knew how to play his class, this other guy who pretty say that Bard was a bad option if you wanted to 1v1 people and that are here for the buffs only, and the other type was agreed that they felt useless. Oh and you had that cleric say how much HE enjoyed the presence of a Bard, sure HE is the one who get to do something thanks to us.

    Personally I think if you think like the first and second guy, I hate you. First off, sure Bards have some great CCs, and they provide buffs that in the long run reduce a lot of damage and contribute a lot of healing. However the truth is the soul lack the capacity to interact with a situation. Sure you heal a lot, but did you heal when it mattered? Did you suddenly saved this guy that was being nuked and enabled him to kill the fang carrier? Did you drop this target that was going to heal that guy back to 100%? As a Bard, of course you didn't!

    As only a support, you bring nothing significant. If support is only about providing buffs and CC, than it is near uselss. In a raid environment CC is not that needed and in PvP you need the damage for the CC to be relevant. The buffs shouldn't even be considered as an aspect of the souls, as everyone can provide buffs. You either deals damage or prevent it, neither of does are performed at a significant extent by Bards.

    The situation of the Bard soul is simple. We only have one way to TRULY help in a situation, our CCs, other than that, we are near useless. An extra dps or heals would be better for your raid than your buffs, thats the sad truth, and they would also provide CC. Centering the Bard soul around buffs is a MASSIVE mistake, there is nothing fun about provide buffs for other people, there is no decision or gaming around it, not only that, the buffs in the Bard soul interact terribly with the souls of the calling.

    The motifs cannot be included into any dps, or even tanking, rotation, so no other souls will go out of their way to get them. The heals in the soul are too weak and too high in the tree for other souls to consider. The utilities like Verse of Joy or Virtuoso are too impractical for dps or tanking. Nothing in this soul (except Good Health, Street Wise, and the Armor Anthem for tanking) fit in our calling, at this point Bard is condemned to have you invest heavily in to get anything meaningful. If the souls had healing abilities low in the tree, and more CC in it, then it would become attractive to other souls of the calling. If more abilities were open to other souls of the Calling, like having Riff inflicting more damage, essentially being a nuke when coupled with a finisher, or Virtuoso applying to all Rogue finishers, then the tree would find a purpose. Of course it would require changing the soul from a whatever centered soul to a dps soul, which would finally give it a purpose.

    It's all about giving the soul a purpose, is it going to dps, tank, or heal, anything other than that is USELESS in the current mmorpg paradigm (gotta love the holy trinity). Support does nothing by itself, the Bard soul need to find its purpose, we don't know if we are supposed to be healers or dps. Archons and Dominators have the advantage of having synergy with the other heals or dps of their trees. A Dominator can actually do damage with another soul and still apply his CCs and an Archon can still heal thanks to having synergy with Chloro. Bard have neither of those options, a Bard will in all cases have mediocre dps and healing.

    In summary, people need to stop saying that its ok that the class is terrible since its a support class, nobody plays a game to be terrible. Yes people want to be able to be good by themselves, nobody want to never have a chance when there is not like 10 other people with them, there is nothing fun and useful about just being support. I bought this game to be a Bard, Bard is a signature soul for the game, and I'm sure a lot of people share my opinion about that, making it a useless soul was a terrible idea, make up your mind Trion and make it useful at something and be actually good at it.
    Riff -> Virtuoso -> Spam Coda of Restoration. <-- This is how you keep the guy alive who is being nuked. 1000 hps is not uncommon on a single target with this combo. For a class which is "support" and not "healer" this is a pretty incredible thing to be able to do. But hey, I guess 1min cd for this invincibility is too long right. We should be able to spam this.

    You're never going to be the damage dealer, the bard is a "support class." You can however cc because Verse of Captivation brings great cc, instant cast 8 sec incapacitate no cooldown.

    In pvp you don't need Verse of Joy, you shouldn't be that heavily spec'd into it. You should be maybe 31 ish points in. Further than that is a mistake. You can combine this with a slow/stun heavy class. Such as marksman or ranger, and you bring not only great heals and buffs, but even better cc.

    You might not think its fun to be the difference in the fight. But many of us appreciate the fantastic utility a bard can provide. The class is not without problems, but if you don't like playing a buffer/healer/supporter then why the heck would you even spec into the bard soul?

    In short, there are a number of us enjoying and utilising this soul. The problem is with you not with the bard soul.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched Wheeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devious View Post
    Riff -> Virtuoso -> Spam Coda of Restoration. <-- This is how you keep the guy alive who is being nuked. 1000 hps is not uncommon on a single target with this combo. For a class which is "support" and not "healer" this is a pretty incredible thing to be able to do. But hey, I guess 1min cd for this invincibility is too long right. We should be able to spam this.
    Riff is 1 min cd, Vituoso is a 3 min cd. Dunno what bard you play :P
    Wheeler
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devious View Post
    Riff -> Virtuoso -> Spam Coda of Restoration. <-- This is how you keep the guy alive who is being nuked. 1000 hps is not uncommon on a single target with this combo.
    You must be CRAZY geared. My Restoration only crits for ~970. To average 1000 hps your average 5 CP heal is what? ~800?

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    bard pvp is awesome and thats all i do. if your bad, your bad. simple as that

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ControlBlue View Post
    Personally I think if you think like the first and second guy, I hate you.
    Always a good sign of an interesting and well thought out discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ControlBlue View Post
    First off, sure Bards have some great CCs, and they provide buffs that in the long run reduce a lot of damage and contribute a lot of healing. However the truth is the soul lack the capacity to interact with a situation. Sure you heal a lot, but did you heal when it mattered? Did you suddenly saved this guy that was being nuked and enabled him to kill the fang carrier? Did you drop this target that was going to heal that guy back to 100%? As a Bard, of course you didn't!
    Then you suck. Because a bard should be learning to play, we have a number of situational buttons which will massively enhance the groups chance for a short while, on 2&3 minute cooldowns. If you haven't identified these by now then there is no hope.


    Quote Originally Posted by ControlBlue View Post
    As only a support, you bring nothing significant.
    Well that's interesting, so forget about the massive crit buff, 9% & 5% damage debuffs, continual stream healing to soften damage spikes, situational bursts of super power for the group, etc... Oh none of those are 'significant'.

    Quote Originally Posted by ControlBlue View Post
    The situation of the Bard soul is simple. We only have one way to TRULY help in a situation, our CCs, other than that, we are near useless. An extra dps or heals would be better for your raid than your buffs, thats the sad truth, and they would also provide CC. Centering the Bard soul around buffs is a MASSIVE mistake, there is nothing fun about provide buffs for other people, there is no decision or gaming around it, not only that, the buffs in the Bard soul interact terribly with the souls of the calling.

    Shocked, just shocked. It's far far better than you're making out, and whilst it's a definite 'one trick pony' and not a soul that others would want to take for any reason, it's an extremely strong role in itself.

    To be blunt, I think you've missed the entire point of the soul. It boosts the entire raid, hugely, and gives someone an interesting job to do (well I find it interesting). I dislike to pvp as a bard, but that's me, I like shooting people rather than guitaring them. But in raids, I always bard and I have to say that the difference I can make to a raid is insane.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    I'm currently using the Bard as a support to my Assassin in PVP, the idea being that I go stealth take down a mage the jump back to the group playing out a few heals. It's a great combo Warfronts and saves on the bordem of just playing tunes. I tend to be one of the highest on the favour fronts. It is however useless on a 1v1 fight as the heals just dont perform.

    How about a Motif that heals to the repsective number of people.
    So say the motif heals 300hp per 3 secs to 1 person but 200hp per 3secs to 2 people etc
    You would have to sort the mechanics out so it would be viable as a group heal but also a solo heal.

    This would mean you might have half a chance when getting jumped on when you're by yourself

    I cant comment on PVE as I've not taken part yet.

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    To a certain extent, I agree with OP.

    In most T2 instances, Bard are not quite required. Some yes, for speed buff and passive healing.
    But most of the time, I need to dps fast to bring down down the bosses.

    Healing? - Cleric + Chloro. No combo beats them. Combat rez, purge heals, remove buffs, and much more.

    Bard? - Some buffs that get overwritten, refreshing 30s buffs, and mediocre heals.
    Perhaps it will shine in raid situation. But beyond that, not quite.

    I want to see some more utilities given or healing bumped. I want to see Bard as a soul in demand, just like Chloro. Nobody goes out specifically to look for bard in instances. They definitely look for a rogue w/ bard soul. But most of the time, I never use my bard because 2 healers are enough.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched Tarkadal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ControlBlue View Post
    It's all about giving the soul a purpose, is it going to dps, tank, or heal, anything other than that is USELESS in the current mmorpg paradigm (gotta love the holy trinity).
    This quote (and others like it) always make me a little sad inside.
    The Holy Trinity (in EQ) was originally Warrior (Tank), Cleric (Heals) and Enchanter (Support and CC).
    The problem is that reliance on support and CC for viable groups made putting one together even harder than it is today. Hence the whitewash, replacing CC/Support for DPS in WoW.

    Anyhow, I have a bard build but I haven't really put the work into mastering it yet. I do agree that there seems to be an emphasis on spending a lot of time reapplying buffs and other AoE/passive effecs, with little chance to provide a quick reaction to the situation (which, in my opinion is the most fun part of playing CC/Support)

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    Rift Disciple Obyran's Avatar
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    Your points are interesting, but your post was kind of a big wall of text for what was actually said.
    The term "Support class" is just used to classify more complex roles that do not fit into the DPS/Healer/Buffer/Tank build archetypes, but instead adjust to the group situation and contribute in more than 1 way to the group's success.
    Bard can be a Jack-of-All-Trades depending on your build, I don't ever classify the soul in one way or another, I just do what I do!
    Obryn- 50 Cleric: Druid, Warden, Justicar
    Devilweed- 50 Mage: Chloromancer, Warlock, Elementalist
    Obyran- 50 Rouge: "Bard"
    Defiant of Briarcliff <Damaged PvPness>


  12. #12
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    1) 62 AP/SP is nothing to dismiss
    2) 5% raid wide mitigation
    3) 5% crit = 3% damage increase for the entire raid
    4) 5% bonus to healing
    5) Lots and lots of AoE heals

    If you look at each piece independently, we look useless. If you take the 62 AP/SP and 5% crit rate, you're talking about increasing the dps of 10 people by ~5% (not to mention burst potential with Verse of Joy) while also providing a lot of heals. If you add in Anthems... Fervor especially... you're talking about even more increase in either mitigation, dps or heck, just plain being able to run faster (which can increase survivability).

  13. #13
    Rift Chaser Anomolis's Avatar
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    sadly the way things are now bard can do as much dps as the other callings. once the other callings get dps buffs like they should then this will change. bards should be support. buffs + heals + low dps

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Hmmm ... you know, I'm usually the nice calm rational guy on a forum, but I'm thinking unkind thoughts about the OP.

    It's a support class! It's designed to be exactly the way it is and in this respect, is incredibly good at what it does. Saying you hate everyone who disagrees with your point of view when your point of view directly contradicts that of the very basics of what it is to be a support class is pretty inane.

    If you wanted to DPS, spec DPS. If you wanted to be the best straight healer, play a Cleric. But if you want to make a whole group of 20 ***massively*** ramp up their DPS and survivability, play Bard. Think about it ... with your ally buffs and enemy debuffs, *everyone* in your group or raid is hitting the mob more or less 10% harder than it would without you. So if you assume that in a group of 20, 15 will be DPS specced, then your own contribution to damage is effectively out-DPSing everyone else's. THAT is what makes a Bard fun to play.

    Seriously ... if you want to see the big numbers pop on your screen, play another class. If you want to play a class who's presence can make or break a raid, play Bard. It's why I always switch to Bard when attacking an invasion boss.

  15. #15
    Shadowlander
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    Default Really?

    Listen, all the OP is saying is that the bard doesn;t do ANYTHING well. They're not best at anything, except possibly buffing. The problem with this is, most of their buffs are overwritten by buffs from other classes. So let's summarize... if you are using a bard AS a bard(i.e. with Cadence and Motifs, Codas, etc.) you:
    1.)Do terrible DPS - FAR below even what many healers do.
    2.)Are the weakest of the healers. Sure, Virtuoso + Coda of Restoration means that once every 3 minutes they can bne pretty awesome AoE healers for 15 seconds. Whoop de doo.
    3.)Great buffers. Except many of their buffs are overwritten by other classes.
    4.)Mediocre crowd control. It's all Mez stuff though, breaks on damage. Again, pretty weak stuff even though it's useful.

    Bards are due for an upgrade. My suggestions is to make a very simple change to make them MUCH more viable... simply double the damage of Cadence and, simultaneously, half the amount of healing it does. Perhaps also increase the damage of power chord. It doesn;t need to be precisely double and half, simply keep the ratio of damage increase the same as the amount of reduction of the healing.

    The point of this is to increase DPS while leaving their heals unaffected. It should be fairly simple to implement and it would bring bards more in line with what Clerics and mage support souls can do.

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