+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22

Thread: *HUGE* rogue bug : needs fixing

  1. #1
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    66

    Default *HUGE* rogue bug : needs fixing

    To sum it up, weapon speed for rogue abilities is NOT normalized, I'm not sure if its a bug new to the latest patch or has been here since they supposedly "normalized" weapon speeds but faster weapons hit MUCH harder on abilities then slow ones, even with the same DPS weapon.


    Before you disagree without testing -


    This is very easy to test, some people might not have the different weapon speeds available to them.


    1) Get 2 weapons of the same DPS, but have one slower then the other ( 1.8 daggers - 2.4 axe etc)

    2) Use the same ability on dummies over and over with your slower weapon - make sure you know whats procced and what could make variance in the ability damage (10% assassin buff etc) it's easiest to test in a 0/0/0 spec using default skills like savage strike, keen strike etc

    3) Swap main hand to faster weapon with the same DPS, repeat step 2. Watch as the same DPS dagger beats out slower speed equal DPS weapons on abilities by a large amount.

    Crit damage doesn't change unless procs change them so its very easy to test.

    These are my results -

    Savage Strike Crit with a 32.7 DPS raid axe (2.4 speed)

    403

    Savage Strike Crit with a 29.2 DPS dagger from AP (1.8 speed)

    469

    14% difference with a worse weapon


    With an archon and bard buffs the dagger hit abilities were hitting 22% harder.

    This isn't savage strike specific either, you can test it with any skill.

  2. #2
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pajama View Post
    To sum it up, weapon speed for rogue abilities is NOT normalized, I'm not sure if its a bug new to the latest patch or has been here since they supposedly "normalized" weapon speeds but faster weapons hit MUCH harder on abilities then slow ones, even with the same DPS weapon.


    Before you disagree without testing -


    This is very easy to test, some people might not have the different weapon speeds available to them.


    1) Get 2 weapons of the same DPS, but have one slower then the other ( 1.8 daggers - 2.4 axe etc)

    2) Use the same ability on dummies over and over with your slower weapon - make sure you know whats procced and what could make variance in the ability damage (10% assassin buff etc) it's easiest to test in a 0/0/0 spec using default skills like savage strike, keen strike etc

    3) Swap main hand to faster weapon with the same DPS, repeat step 2. Watch as the same DPS dagger beats out slower speed equal DPS weapons on abilities by a large amount.

    Crit damage doesn't change unless procs change them so its very easy to test.

    These are my results -

    Savage Strike Crit with a 32.7 DPS raid axe (2.4 speed)

    403

    Savage Strike Crit with a 29.2 DPS dagger from AP (1.8 speed)

    469

    14% difference with a worse weapon


    With an archon and bard buffs the dagger hit abilities were hitting 22% harder.

    This isn't savage strike specific either, you can test it with any skill.
    Yeah, fixing this bug should be on the top of Trion's priority list. Because then Rogues could feel even more sad about their dps when compared to the other callings.

  3. #3
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    66

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CharismaBard View Post
    Yeah, fixing this bug should be on the top of Trion's priority list. Because then Rogues could feel even more sad about their dps when compared to the other callings.
    Cant edit post...

    Screenshots

    http://oi52.tinypic.com/el3zpy.jpg

    http://i55.tinypic.com/10o1els.jpg


    You can see I have the same buffs, only thing switched is the weapons

    Maces also do less damage then both daggers and axes at the same DPS.
    Last edited by pajama; 04-07-2011 at 05:25 PM.

  4. #4
    Rift Chaser mercilous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    300

    Default

    This is interesting. I would like to see an official response before I start investing in daggers. Would hate to invest in some daggers just for this to be changed in the next patch.
    Faemist - Rank 4 Guardian Assassin - Mercilous
    Faemist - Level 30 Guardian Warlock - Lexium
    Faemist - Level 29 Defiant Cleric - Kotsune

  5. #5
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    55

    Default

    interesting find , some confirmation would be nice though

  6. #6
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Huh? Your method of testing is flawed. We need more information than just, I hit for X with one weapon and X with another without factoring in randomness.

    I have thoroughly tested this a while back, and posted my results which no one cared about enough to post on, and result is that conclusively, skill damage is normalized on DPS.

    Method: use same spec and gear with (near) exact same with DPS weapons at 1.8 and 2.7 speed. Backstab for 20 minutes using an automation (so same amount of backstabs), compare skill damage.

    Results:
    Daggers (1.8): http://i.imgur.com/O5qjP.jpg 134-233 damage 165 average at 24% crit over 790 hits.
    Mace (2.7): http://i.imgur.com/q8KNO.jpg 134-233 damage 167 average at 26% crit over 792 hits.

    It's fine. Attack power, on the other hand... is another story.

    While on the subject of fast vs slow weapons, I just want to add that you will ALWAYS want to use daggers. Normalized damage, but frequency of poison procs is much higher.
    Last edited by Gustuf; 04-07-2011 at 05:44 PM.

  7. #7
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    66

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gustuf View Post
    We need more information than just, I hit for X with one weapon and X with another without factoring in randomness.

    Crits aren't random, they will consistently be the same number if procs don't change. ( assuming you dont change spec weapons debuffs etc on the dummy)
    Last edited by pajama; 04-07-2011 at 05:47 PM.

  8. #8
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    55

    Default

    How do you know daggers are more effective with poisons? Just curious.

  9. #9
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gustuf View Post
    Huh? Your method of testing is flawed. We need more information than just, I hit for X with one weapon and X with another without factoring in randomness.

    I have thoroughly tested this a while back, and posted my results which no one cared about enough to post on, and result is that conclusively, skill damage is normalized on DPS.

    Method: use same spec and gear with (near) exact same with DPS weapons at 1.8 and 2.7 speed. Backstab for 20 minutes using an automation (so same amount of backstabs), compare skill damage.

    Results:
    Daggers (1.8): http://i.imgur.com/O5qjP.jpg 134-233 damage 165 average at 24% crit over 790 hits.
    Mace (2.7): http://i.imgur.com/q8KNO.jpg 134-233 damage 167 average at 26% crit over 792 hits.

    It's fine. Attack power, on the other hand... is another story.

    While on the subject of fast vs slow weapons, I just want to add that you will ALWAYS want to use daggers. Normalized damage, but frequency of poison procs is much higher.
    I dont deny your results, but how long ago did you test this? Just looking at my dmg numbers now, Im noticing the same damage disparity between my higher dps and slower weapon than my quicker and lower dps weap as the OP. Since the update a few nights ago something could have changed
    Last edited by spankdaddi; 04-07-2011 at 05:51 PM.
    Erazed - 50 rogue.

  10. #10
    Koe
    Koe is offline
    Ascendant Koe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,198

    Default

    Did you switch the weapons around while in combat? If so, that has nothing to do with weapon speed and is just a bug.

  11. #11
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spankdaddi View Post
    I dont deny your results, but how long ago did you test this? Just looking at my dmg numbers now, Im noticing the same damage disparity between my higher dps and slower weapon than my quicker and lower dps weap as the OP. Since the update a few nights ago something could have changed
    http://imgur.com/TlLgn Imgur states I posted this 2 weeks ago... so without a doubt this is before 1.1 patch. However, there is nothing in 1.1 that affected the mechanics, as far as I know, of weapon damage - something like this will significantly change damages and would not go unnoticed.



    As for how do I know poison is better on daggers? Just look at the results. With daggers I did 1078 AA attacks and 790 backstabs and got a total of almost 700 poison procs. With maces there were 660 AA attacks and 792 backstabs with 500 poison procs. Divide them, and you'll see my proc rates are consistently about 16%. More AA = more procs = more poison damage.



    As for if you asked if it was me switching weapons - nope, this was all done while I was afk using an AHK macro to spam backstab until energy starved and repeat.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,460

    Default

    What's odd is a guildie did the same test. The difference was he only looked at the finisher damage. His test showed slower weapons doing more damage. Something was clearly changed but with two different out comes who the heck knows.

  13. #13
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    66

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    Did you switch the weapons around while in combat? If so, that has nothing to do with weapon speed and is just a bug.
    It's possible I never left combat to switch weapons


    I still don't see how this is anymore acceptable as a bug though, switching weapons in combat to gain more DPS (you are right that it would be a whole other issue though.)

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    92

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    What's odd is a guildie did the same test. The difference was he only looked at the finisher damage. His test showed slower weapons doing more damage. Something was clearly changed but with two different out comes who the heck knows.
    This was discovered back in beta, and before they changed it so that you couldn't swap gear in combat, rogues were using fast weapons for combo point building, then quickly switching to a slow weapon for their finisher.

    As for poison doing more damage with faster weapons - looking at the tooltips for weapon enchantments, they have (untalented) a 20% chance to proc every time you hit for a flat amount of damage. With faster weapons, you're hitting more often, therefore have a greater chance of one of those hits being a proc. Don't really think that you need math to figure that one out.

  15. #15
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    95

    Default

    JUST did a quick retest (and quite frankly more surprised my gear hardly changed from 2 weeks ago.). I didn't respec and just used my PVP asn, so he can proc cruel vengeance, but since it was nearly almost up... address later.

    101 of SS using both daggers and maces (same ones, i kept them in the bank).

    http://i.imgur.com/0M4ye.jpg
    Mace 134-273 180 average 27% crit
    http://i.imgur.com/SKZtX.jpg
    Dagger 127-273 172 average 21% crit.

    The reason daggers minimum damage was 127 was because it crit before cruel vengeance procced. Mace's minimum damage is 134 because it took a while to crit, and when the first and lowest damage crit hit, it was when +5% damage cruel vengeance was up. I tried removing all proc (removed sigil but not respec for cruel) for this but was too lazy.

    Results: Weapon damage is still normalized. Daggers still AA more, proc more, got unlucky with crits but did 3k more damage because of poisons and refreshing upkeep on serrated blades and cruel vengeance. Results conclusive to me.
    Last edited by Gustuf; 04-07-2011 at 07:13 PM.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts