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Thread: ANOTHER proposed Rogue Change Thread

  1. #1
    Shadowlander KonMann's Avatar
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    Default ANOTHER proposed Rogue Change Thread

    im sure there have been many recently, i haven't read any, nor do i read these forums much im posting this here you can either read it or put your tin foil hat back on and go back into the shadows if you read it post constructive criticism if you wish , flame if you want to also, i don't care what people think, if you have ideas that make mine seem weak share them don't keep them to yourself.

    [General]

    - Stealth / Conceal No longer gives 30% speed De-buff

    [Assassin]

    Serrated Blades - Works again with Ranged Weapons ( because what kind of assassin would serrate his daggers and not bother with his arrows)

    Puncture - No Longer has a Dot Effect Single Target High Damage ability basically add the dot effect onto the base damage somewhere around the 200-210 damage region increase CD by 2 seconds

    Silent Footsteps - Reworked Due to Stealth De-buff removal now increases the Detection Difficulty and the Duration by 10/20/30

    Improved Stealth - Removed ( Controversial I know )

    "Silent Approach" - ( replacing Improved Stealth ) - Increases the critical hit chance of you stealth Openers by 100% and increases AP contribution by 100% ( does not work while under the effect of slip away )


    Physical Trauma - No Longer increases Duration of Jagged Strike / Impale, it now Causes jagged Strike to Snare target by 15/30%

    Serpent Strike - Now also causes target have a 25% healing De-buff for 6 seconds


    [Bladedancer]

    No Clue Really they are just Meh atm i would like to see an awesome mechanic come back "Twisting" but that's too far fetched, maybe make more abilities follow up and ramp the damage up so that the 3rd of 4th chain ability that's a finisher does some great damage only thing i can think of atm is making the Tempos Off the GCD



    [Nightblade]

    NB seems reasonable at the moment good survivability and damage is good, the Stealth change applies here i am open to Suggestions

    [Saboteur]

    I dislike the way Sab plays so i haven't had much experience, possibly over Nerfed in patch, sorry.

    [Bard]

    Items - BARDS NEED ITEMS specifically specced for bard abilities for instance
    Songbooks ( Totems)
    Lutes - Now unsure how they will make these DPS if they choose to do so Maybe similar to Wand ( 2h though No Bow )
    bards with both of these equipped trigger a bard passive allowing them to have freedom of movement ie Cadence spam / fanfares etc cast on the move

    Motifs - Moved off the GCD

    Non Passive Buff Motifs - Cast On Bard and Affect 10 raid / party members ( ie Motif of Regen etc )

    Anthem Of Competence - Works as Improved Anthem permanently

    Improved Anthem of Competence - Removed

    "Melodic Harmony" - Motif Of Regeneration Now also regenerates Mana / Energy / Power / charge (30/5/5/5 ) this is @ lvl 50 might have to swap this talent with Verse of fascination to move it higher in the tree make it less easily accessible with scaling from "25" to 50 appropriate

    Verse of Joy - Removed

    Motif of Contempt - (unlocked @ 44 )does X ( thinking 50-58 Life damage ) Damages up to 10 Enemies within Motif Range of Bard

    Verse of Vitality - moved to 51 Points , Healing Potency Increased to be fitting of a lvl 51 ability



    [Infiltrator]

    Cloudy Poison - Affects ALL attacked melee / cast so instant abilities take .25 seconds to use,

    [Riftstalker]

    Boosted Recovery - 30% Again. YAY


    [Marksman]

    Revert These Back to Open Beta, and see if @ 50 they were indeed Super OP somehow i dont think they would have been

    [Ranger]

    Same As Marksman

    Regards,

    Your Friendly Local Kon Mann
    Last edited by KonMann; 04-07-2011 at 06:18 AM.
    .One.Kon - Defiant Rogue - Briarcliff
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  2. #2
    Ascendant
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    Sorry Kon, but you jsut destroyed SIN's. Stealth "IS" their weapon. Without it all you have is jsut another leather wearing player that dies in 2 hits to anything with plate, an even faster to mages.


    "All a SIN needs" at moment is a big damage boost, at 50 we cant kill anyone in anything but quest gear. Specially with Trions fetish for forcing you to raid/bot battlegrounds or share your account to keep up with the other botters.

  3. #3
    Shadowlander KonMann's Avatar
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    they still have stealth???

    Ahhh you mean that i cant stay stealth-ed for 10 minutes and watch everyone until i find someone on 10% HP so i can kill them, or hide out in lowbie areas.

    i know when ganking oops, "open world pvp" perma stealth is awesome but in Wf's and most other situations 1 minute of stealth is a fair chunk, basically Ive given up on anything more than ganking for trions attempt at open pvp, so might as well make the most of what we have to play
    .One.Kon - Defiant Rogue - Briarcliff
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  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by KonMann View Post
    they still have stealth???

    Ahhh you mean that i cant stay stealth-ed for 10 minutes and watch everyone until i find someone on 10% HP so i can kill them, or hide out in lowbie areas.

    i know when ganking oops, "open world pvp" perma stealth is awesome but in Wf's and most other situations 1 minute of stealth is a fair chunk, basically Ive given up on anything more than ganking for trions attempt at open pvp, so might as well make the most of what we have to play
    Losing stealth is fine by me. But I think we would need something quite a bit more significant to replace it.

    I do prefer the toe-to-toe fight rather than the stealth gank, simply because that is the nature of the warfronts. Time spent in stealth is time wasted.

    Kudos to removing the bard buffs from GCD. It does not fix them in PvP, but makes them tolerable for PvE.
    Last edited by KingBee; 04-07-2011 at 05:54 PM.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander KonMann's Avatar
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    just to clarify by what i mean by open PvP, for me open pvp is not just about killing someone in the persistant world, siting in stealth waiting for someone to be below 20% hp while fighting a mob isnt world pvp its ganking, and while that is fun , it brings nothing to the game, open world pvp is people going out in groups / solo Pvping to accomplish something, an objective etc now when someone is lets say attempting to capture a point or something and has gone in with the pvp mindset with their pvp setup not pve and your stealthed to find an opening thats pvp.

    but at this stage of the game "open world" pvp is only about 5% of the game the rest of if is PvE grinding dungeons and wf's for which benefits of perma stealth is negligible

    my ideas are only a guideline if there were to implement some of them etc im sure they would be more awesome, possibly assassins stealth is 45 seconds with silent footsteps increasing it by a percentage so assassins will always have more stealth than a nightblade
    Last edited by KonMann; 04-07-2011 at 08:38 PM.
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  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    Some good ideas here!!!

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple
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    Change the Bladedancer reactive from evasion to crit and they would suddenly become an interesting class with plenty more synergy with other souls.

  8. #8
    Plane Touched
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    Stealth is fine as is. A slower run speed stealth dictates a different skill set. It takes dedication and training to perfect stealth to the point where you can do it at full run speed and for a longer duration. That is kind of the point of assassins. Going deep in the tree rewards you with faster and longer stealth, and in that regard allows them to scout out dangerous areas before making a move, which is what an assassin does. That is how I see it anyway.

  9. #9
    Plane Walker
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    sorry i disagree to 95% of everything you propose.

    assasins is a class based on bleeds and dots. removing those thigns will remove the aspect of the class.

    in stealth you should be slower as your trying not to get detected so don't change that.

    Physical Trauma don't destroy thats pve value pls.

    serpent strike is already a strong skill.


    bard: i agree on the lutes and such it would make it more fun

    motives not off gcd that would be stupid no leave them there.

    your melodic harmony would be op.

    Motif of Contempt - (unlocked @ 44 )does X ( thinking 50-58 Life damage ) Damages up to 10 Enemies within Motif Range of Bard
    lol really ? just lol

    Verse of Vitality - moved to 51 Points , Healing Potency Increased to be fitting of a lvl 51 ability

    we are not healers seriously. i like the ability if it wouls scale a bit better.


    dunno about ranger and marksman i wasn't there in that beta.
    Last edited by bahizret; 04-09-2011 at 07:48 AM.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander KonMann's Avatar
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    just some ideas, if they cherry pick one or 2 ideas, for instance, puncture ( for a little more sin burst ) and the bard items idea, that would be a start, maybe the bladedancer chain abilities go more in depth as well,

    its not like i was banking on trion using this as a template for future changes,

    for me in my mind, the harassment "melee" spec is nightblade, and the spec you go to drop casters from 50% hp super quick is assassin, come out drop some insane burst on opening kill them, slip away and run away to find another target
    .One.Kon - Defiant Rogue - Briarcliff
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  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by KonMann View Post
    [Bard]

    Items - BARDS NEED ITEMS specifically specced for bard abilities for instance
    Songbooks ( Totems)
    Lutes - Now unsure how they will make these DPS if they choose to do so Maybe similar to Wand ( 2h though No Bow )
    bards with both of these equipped trigger a bard passive allowing them to have freedom of movement ie Cadence spam / fanfares etc cast on the move

    Motifs - Moved off the GCD

    Non Passive Buff Motifs - Cast On Bard and Affect 10 raid / party members ( ie Motif of Regen etc )

    Anthem Of Competence - Works as Improved Anthem permanently

    Improved Anthem of Competence - Removed

    "Melodic Harmony" - Motif Of Regeneration Now also regenerates Mana / Energy / Power / charge (30/5/5/5 ) this is @ lvl 50 might have to swap this talent with Verse of fascination to move it higher in the tree make it less easily accessible with scaling from "25" to 50 appropriate

    Verse of Joy - Removed

    Motif of Contempt - (unlocked @ 44 )does X ( thinking 50-58 Life damage ) Damages up to 10 Enemies within Motif Range of Bard

    Verse of Vitality - moved to 51 Points , Healing Potency Increased to be fitting of a lvl 51 ability
    No to all of these. All bad decisions (except maybe the Improved Anthem of Competence thing).

    Motifs off the GCD? Why are people so set on changing how motifs work? It's not hard to do, and it's absolutely no different than any other specs in the game. Pretty much every spec has self buffs, debuffs, or DoTs to maintain. This is no different. If you put Motifs off the GCD, you could basically just macro all 5 together and hit one button for them. Why not just make it one Motif with 5 effects? That's what you want to turn it into.

    Bard would be a hideously boring spec without Motifs and debuff Codas to maintain. Cadence - Power Chord - Coda of Wrath/Fury/Restoration. Rinse. Repeat ad nauseum. Motifs mix up the rotation, just like a Necro has to maintain DoTs, or a Blade Dancer has to maintain self buffs.

    About the only things I could see being changed about the Motifs is possibly increasing the duration to 40-45 seconds, or maybe combining Tenacity/Grandeur and Bravery/Focus, effectivelly giving us 3 motifs to maintain: Offensive, Defensive, Healing.

    Most importantly, Bards DO NOT need silly Soul specific gear pieces. All it would do is: A.) inflate boss loot tables so more loot gets completely wasted, and B.) force players to carry an extra gear set just for Bard, even though it uses exactly the same stats. It's bad enough you have to carry separate gear sets for tank specs (even though you don't need separate gear sets for Healing or other Support specs). It would have absolutely no other impact on gameplay, as it would just be another stat stick item. It would just be irritating for Bards and non-Bards alike. If you want a cosmetic item that changes the instrument you play when using things like Codas and Motifs, ask for that.

    It's nice that you're trying to 'fix' Bard, but I think you're going in the wrong direction with it. Bard essentially plays fine. It just performs less effectively. It needs to deal somewhat more base damage, it needs to scale better with gear, and some of the healing effects need to be increased slightly.

  12. #12
    Shadowlander KonMann's Avatar
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    bard items are an awesome idea... someone who chooses to play bard and uses specific bard items should have an advantage over someone who is dps rogue and swaps to bard, because not everyone likes bard and not everyone will carry the soul specific items just like a dps warrior who switches to tank might not have good tank specced items and therefore is less effective.

    everyone is entitles to their opinion
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  13. #13
    Rift Disciple
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    I agree Bards are perfect the way they are, ppl always want their class to be op but thats not how it happens. I think all rogue souls aside from riftstalker or bard should pump out heavy damage seeing as they are burst souls. I wasnt there for beta but I heard good things about Marksman. I am biased cause I play the class but I want to have a taste of that beta 7 marksman.

    My guess is they nerfed them cause lowbies joined lowbie WFs and got owned. So op at low lvl but crappy at max, bad concept. now we get stuff like stormcallers or shams op at low lvl crap at max. Changes to stealth is stupid, I enjoy feeling like a rogue. Idk enough about bards nor do I care about them to comment on that. Bladedancer needs love imo NB is fine and so is sin, Ranger is actually very good if u go 51 points into it. Marksman is about the only rogue dps soul aside from BD that I think needs a buff, no stuns-****ty CC-medium burst- and a finisher that doesnt hit as much as it should.

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple Otakuken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thenewzero View Post
    No to all of these. All bad decisions (except maybe the Improved Anthem of Competence thing).

    Motifs off the GCD? Why are people so set on changing how motifs work? It's not hard to do, and it's absolutely no different than any other specs in the game. Pretty much every spec has self buffs, debuffs, or DoTs to maintain. This is no different. If you put Motifs off the GCD, you could basically just macro all 5 together and hit one button for them. Why not just make it one Motif with 5 effects? That's what you want to turn it into.

    Bard would be a hideously boring spec without Motifs and debuff Codas to maintain. Cadence - Power Chord - Coda of Wrath/Fury/Restoration. Rinse. Repeat ad nauseum. Motifs mix up the rotation, just like a Necro has to maintain DoTs, or a Blade Dancer has to maintain self buffs.

    About the only things I could see being changed about the Motifs is possibly increasing the duration to 40-45 seconds, or maybe combining Tenacity/Grandeur and Bravery/Focus, effectivelly giving us 3 motifs to maintain: Offensive, Defensive, Healing.

    Most importantly, Bards DO NOT need silly Soul specific gear pieces. All it would do is: A.) inflate boss loot tables so more loot gets completely wasted, and B.) force players to carry an extra gear set just for Bard, even though it uses exactly the same stats. It's bad enough you have to carry separate gear sets for tank specs (even though you don't need separate gear sets for Healing or other Support specs). It would have absolutely no other impact on gameplay, as it would just be another stat stick item. It would just be irritating for Bards and non-Bards alike. If you want a cosmetic item that changes the instrument you play when using things like Codas and Motifs, ask for that.

    It's nice that you're trying to 'fix' Bard, but I think you're going in the wrong direction with it. Bard essentially plays fine. It just performs less effectively. It needs to deal somewhat more base damage, it needs to scale better with gear, and some of the healing effects need to be increased slightly.
    I agree with this... Increasing the amount of gear would be troubling although I know what you're trying to do; increase the individuality of Bards and give them their own set of things to make Bards become more special, but in reality think about how long it'd take to get geared for those items "if" they don't drop. One positive thing I can add to the table for bards it that the Motif's stack and perhaps a new skill could be given to them that upon activation could consume all their currently casted Motif's and either perform a heal or some type of super buff beyond what Motif's could offer for a short time and on a 3 minute CD. That way Bards get a role that when you need overhaul mode we're a prime selection amongst our already better competition.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bendover View Post
    I agree Bards are perfect the way they are, ppl always want their class to be op but thats not how it happens. I think all rogue souls aside from riftstalker or bard should pump out heavy damage seeing as they are burst souls. I wasnt there for beta but I heard good things about Marksman. I am biased cause I play the class but I want to have a taste of that beta 7 marksman.

    My guess is they nerfed them cause lowbies joined lowbie WFs and got owned. So op at low lvl but crappy at max, bad concept. now we get stuff like stormcallers or shams op at low lvl crap at max. Changes to stealth is stupid, I enjoy feeling like a rogue. Idk enough about bards nor do I care about them to comment on that. Bladedancer needs love imo NB is fine and so is sin, Ranger is actually very good if u go 51 points into it. Marksman is about the only rogue dps soul aside from BD that I think needs a buff, no stuns-****ty CC-medium burst- and a finisher that doesnt hit as much as it should.
    I also never played Beta, but I heard and saw (from youtube) how amazing these Marksmen were. Actually (as shallow as this may be) bought the game as part of seeing that hoping that I would get that same opportunity because in WoW (where I hail from) hunter's were the only Roguish class that offered that. What did I get? Lackluster Ranged and talents you go 5/5 in that have a 30% chance of proc'ing when it should be in the 70's or simply 100%. I got 1.45 CD's that are necessary to pop in order to do anything effective and until I pop the CD that refreshes everything or wait till they come back online I'm the teams number one bench warmer. Personally as far as the upgrades you're proposing I feel some are nice except the Assassin stuff seeing as Assassin is your "Out of the Stealth Field and Bam!" type soul and Blade Dancer is your "In your face quick and put you out" type soul. Please don't mix them up =)

    Lastly I feel that Trion needs to revise Rogues as a whole because some souls don't have what they should. Assassins should have more burst and talents that compliment their bleed techniques and increase the success rate to 100% application as well as offering some more proc based crit skills than the 51 point ability. Blade Dancer's need more optimal ability with their Rhythmic Dances so that you can at least catch the benefits of a previously casted one for a CD rotation getting 2 at once; can you imagine blade tempo stacked with a dodge? Didn't think so.

    I'd go further but then I'd be making a sheet like the OP; so I'll simply restate what I just said. Revise and Revamp Rogue Calling. It needs proper direction.

    Sincerely, Otakuken.

  15. #15
    Shadowlander
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    IMO all rogues need is a little more surviability and less starvation of energy after like 8 seconds of combat and we would be decent, i dont want rogues to be OP just compedative

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