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Thread: What scales better in raids? 15% dex or 15% ap.

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default What scales better in raids? 15% dex or 15% ap.

    I've got no clue how the 15% dex you get from sabo and blade dancer or the 15 ap from riftstalker caluclates.

    Does it scale with buffs?

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...hqgMoc.0VMcx0b

    That's the build me and another rogue uses, he pulls over 900 dps now with 15% dex on infiltrator johlen.

    He pulled those numbers with the same spec/rotatation as me but i was using 5% crit from ranger while topping 750dps.

    We have about the same gear, only difference is our trinkets and his MH 32.1dps weapon, he has the 30sec 120+ap from fae, and ive got 170 -200dmg on proc.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Proper rotation, macros and fight awareness scales absolutely best.
    Weapon scales second best.
    There's the a jump down.
    Crit rating scales decent.
    Dex scales so-so, mostly because it gives crit rating.
    AP scales... not so much.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
    Proper rotation, macros and fight awareness scales absolutely best.
    Weapon scales second best.
    There's the a jump down.
    Crit rating scales decent.
    Dex scales so-so, mostly because it gives crit rating.
    AP scales... not so much.
    Bump.

    Thank you, but i already know this.

    What im asking is does 15% dex and 15% ap scale with buffs?

  4. #4
    Telaran Noirvetica's Avatar
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    Since buffs are either base stats(Like DEX, STR, INT, etc) or straight damage increases(as in +x% damage or crit or such) dex scales much much better.
    Last edited by Noirvetica; 04-07-2011 at 05:17 AM.

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swaggy View Post
    Bump.

    Thank you, but i already know this.

    What im asking is does 15% dex and 15% ap scale with buffs?
    lol if you already knew this then you know that 15% AP (what you just said was useless) is even more useless with raid buffs!

    and 15% dex (which means 1 dex = 1.15 crit = good = the best = how is this question even on the forums if you knew this?)
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
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  6. #6
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    So, with all these claims that crit > AP; have any of you actually tested and put numbers to it in any normal context?

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Itemization pretty much rates 4 crit rating at the same value as 1 AP.
    You get about 0.7% DPS increase (if using Assassin 17+) from 1% crit.
    6.5 AP == 1 Crit% about.
    If you're doing 500 DPS, you're getting about 3.5 DPS from it.
    If you're doing 800 DPS, you're getting about 5.6 DPS from it.

    6.5 AP gives + 0.65 damage to all your attacks.
    If you're fighting longer than 6-10 seconds, pending what energy cost abilities you open up with, it's getting even lower due to the energy starvation, perhaps down to 0.5 or less in a 2+ minute fight.

    So, you, for the same itemization cost, get about 0.5 DPS, not really scaling with your general DPS or main weapon. Even if this scales with all % mod's, it's not going to go over 1 DPS.

    Thus, crit rating as itemization is just that much better, in particular if you have a high-end weapon.

    That's just math.
    If you want to do a test on how all-important AP is...
    Remove all your gear bar your main hand weapon.
    Hit something. Notice the hit range.
    Wear your gear. Hit the same thing. Notice the hit range.
    If you want to see where your damage is actually coming from:
    Buy a level 8 crafted weapon or something along those lines, as poor as you possibly can.
    Wear your full T2 gear. Hit something. Notice the difference.

    You got 14 slots doing jack-****, and one slot carrying it all. If it wasn't for crit rating (and to some extend dex), and endurnce, you wouldn't really even loose out from playing naked with only your weapon.

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
    Itemization pretty much rates 4 crit rating at the same value as 1 AP.
    You get about 0.7% DPS increase (if using Assassin 17+) from 1% crit.
    6.5 AP == 1 Crit% about.
    If you're doing 500 DPS, you're getting about 3.5 DPS from it.
    If you're doing 800 DPS, you're getting about 5.6 DPS from it.

    6.5 AP gives + 0.65 damage to all your attacks.
    If you're fighting longer than 6-10 seconds, pending what energy cost abilities you open up with, it's getting even lower due to the energy starvation, perhaps down to 0.5 or less in a 2+ minute fight.

    So, you, for the same itemization cost, get about 0.5 DPS, not really scaling with your general DPS or main weapon. Even if this scales with all % mod's, it's not going to go over 1 DPS.

    Thus, crit rating as itemization is just that much better, in particular if you have a high-end weapon.

    That's just math.
    If you want to do a test on how all-important AP is...
    Remove all your gear bar your main hand weapon.
    Hit something. Notice the hit range.
    Wear your gear. Hit the same thing. Notice the hit range.
    If you want to see where your damage is actually coming from:
    Buy a level 8 crafted weapon or something along those lines, as poor as you possibly can.
    Wear your full T2 gear. Hit something. Notice the difference.

    You got 14 slots doing jack-****, and one slot carrying it all. If it wasn't for crit rating (and to some extend dex), and endurnce, you wouldn't really even loose out from playing naked with only your weapon.
    this

    so for all those who like 15% AP, you can have it, i want nothing to do with it. only reason i have it with my tank set is because of the 3second immunity from going 51 points into RS.
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
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    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  9. #9
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    Itemization pretty much rates 4 crit rating at the same value as 1 AP.
    Are you sure. I haven't taken too deep a look, but my casual observations have pegged it at 2:1.


    You get about 0.7% DPS increase (if using Assassin 17+) from 1% crit.
    It's actually about ~20% less than 0.7% DPS increase because you already have 20% basecrit (or more) in normal group/raid situations.


    6.5 AP gives + 0.65 damage to all your attacks.
    Along with an additional bonus to finishers, which is substantial, relatively speaking.

    Also note that several common PvE builds have more rapidly-cycling finishers than the '1-1-1-1-1-2" model. This compresses the "AP contribution per second" by applying more finishers per attack.


    If you're fighting longer than 6-10 seconds, pending what energy cost abilities you open up with, it's getting even lower due to the energy starvation, perhaps down to 0.5 or less in a 2+ minute fight.
    Marginally lower, since the crit contribution is also reduced commensurate with energy starvation, with the exception of the small case of autoattacks and a few other passives -- serrated blades comes to mind, although I don't recall if the dot damage could crit or not.

    You're also assuming energy starvation as an actual factor, which is variable depending on build and buffs.


    You got 14 slots doing jack-****, and one slot carrying it all.
    I agree that the weapon slot is over-saturated in terms of DPS contribution from gear. However, from what I've seen, the "terribleness" of AP is rather exaggerated when you have a moderate level of gear, and people tend to confuse this with the weakness of all raw dps stats, except for the weapon DPS itself.

  10. #10
    Rift Chaser RogueScythe's Avatar
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    I've tested with scrolls and the 15% Dex talent and it does not scale with buffs.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogueScythe View Post
    I've tested with scrolls and the 15% Dex talent and it does not scale with buffs.
    wont scale with stat buffs, but should scale with the 15% dex buff from bard motif and stuff like that.
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  12. #12
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
    Are you sure. I haven't taken too deep a look, but my casual observations have pegged it at 2:1.
    1 AP = 2 Stats = 4 Sub Stats (Crit, Dodge, Parry, Block etc. Hit probably too)

    It's actually about ~20% less than 0.7% DPS increase because you already have 20% basecrit (or more) in normal group/raid situations.
    Ops, right! Should have used a base uncrited DPS model rather than one assuming for crits.

    Along with an additional bonus to finishers, which is substantial, relatively speaking.
    Finishers are cool. I'll agree that AP stacking there isn't an issue. Currently, it's pretty much best to just reach 5 points to finish ASAP.

    Also note that several common PvE builds have more rapidly-cycling finishers than the '1-1-1-1-1-2" model. This compresses the "AP contribution per second" by applying more finishers per attack.
    Indeed. But at 40 energy, you're loosing out one 30 energy attack for every 3 done. They also tend to have ridiculously long cool downs for their already high cost. It does give some faster finishers, so it may pan out.
    You're making a fair point on finishers drawing up the AP-per-second if you can get them going fast enough. It may or may not break even from the energy starvation.

    Marginally lower, since the crit contribution is also reduced commensurate with energy starvation, with the exception of the small case of autoattacks and a few other passives -- serrated blades comes to mind, although I don't recall if the dot damage could crit or not.
    Yes, but AP cost is still 4 times as high as crit rating. It seems I'd need to not miss out some obvious flaws in my arguments though, good catch there as well. ;)

    You're also assuming energy starvation as an actual factor, which is variable depending on build and buffs.
    15 energy from BD finisher. 1 free combo point from NB/Ranger finishers. Those help alleviate energy ever so slightly. A bard/chloro goes further. I'll still be depleted until the Verse of Joy. Ebon Fury makes me go up with a Bard/Chloro. But I'm never really over 50 energy, and I rarely can go-back-to-back on builder attacks when properly engaged unless the fight requires some high random mobility which makes continuous damage tricky.
    Or unless you play bard, where you'll have to really screw up rotations to go out of energy.

    I agree that the weapon slot is over-saturated in terms of DPS contribution from gear. However, from what I've seen, the "terribleness" of AP is rather exaggerated when you have a moderate level of gear, and people tend to confuse this with the weakness of all raw dps stats, except for the weapon DPS itself.
    I've got full T2 gear, except for gloves (don't need hit, current has crit) and trinket (actually an AP proc!) because I've never seen a DPS trinket actually drop, including weapons.
    Removing all my gear except weapons results in a, while noticeable, in the larger picture, rather minor drop in damage.

    To make a comparison with a debuff, Spotter's Orders gives +46 damage and +23 from DoT's. That's 460 attack power on single attacks. Fourhundredandsixty. Like the AP of a T2 kit of armor. I wont forget to mention it this time - it wont stack up as good on Finishers here, but still... Unsure if the +DoT tick actually affects stacking DoTs , like Fiery Spike etc proportionally or if it's a one time thing.
    It's still not bad for a debuff to nearly do the same +damage as a full kit of armor.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Dinadass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
    1 AP = 2 Stats = 4 Sub Stats (Crit, Dodge, Parry, Block etc. Hit probably too)

    Yes, but AP cost is still 4 times as high as crit rating. It seems I'd need to not miss out some obvious flaws in my arguments though, good catch there as well. ;)
    Energized Tunic: 562 Armor, 14 Strength, 24 Dex, 19 End, 26 Crit
    Reinforced Windblown Tunic: 562 Armor, 19 Strength, 24 Dex, 14 End, 13 AP

    Both from final bosses of t2 instances so their itemization budgets are equal.

    There are other examples out there as well. 1 AP = 2 Crit for itemization budget costs.

    <Ascendant> 13/13 Seastone Defiant

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
    1 AP = 2 Stats = 4 Sub Stats (Crit, Dodge, Parry, Block etc. Hit probably too)
    See, I find this interesting, because on pieces of equivalent gear, you can find Crit:AP at a 2:1 ratio.

    For example:

    Hood of the Shimmering Mist
    Armor: 450
    Strength +16
    Dexterity +22
    Endurance +13
    Attack Power +11

    Cover of Night
    Armor: 450
    Strength +15
    Dexterity + 21
    Endurance +15
    Physical Crit +22

    or:

    Reinforced Windblown Tunic
    Armor: 562
    Strength +19
    Dexterity +24
    Endurance +14
    Attack Power +13

    Energized Tunic
    Armor: 562
    Strength +14
    Dexterity +24
    Endurance +19
    Physical Crit +26

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Hrm, it would appear I've been delusional then! :/
    Can't think of where I got that from, but you're right!

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