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Thread: [Bard] Ideas for making Motifs more fun!

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Default [Bard] Ideas for making Motifs more fun!

    I don't know about you but I find the fact that as a high level Bard you are forced into a rotation that just maintain buffs to be really boring and unappealing. Even as a Nightblade using Bard as a 2nd soul, maintaining motif of Bravery feel like a hassle. I love the fact that Buff get to provide the different buffs that the motifs bring, I rolled Bard to be able to provide those buffs and help my group among other things, however it don't change the fact that it is hard for you to measure your influence when all you do is maintain buffs, buffs that have to be maintained at any costs, without any way to see their influence on the actual combat.

    Motifs could be benefit in being more active and less passive, and so I though of this:

    1. All motifs turned into small duration, strong effects, moderate cooldowns, all sharing the same cooldown.

    - Motif of Bravery (Rank 1): Increase Attack Power and Spell Power by 30. Last 5 seconds. CD: 30sec.
    A mini-Bloodlust (WoW reference, don't hate me ) that you get to cast more than once in combat. I want D!! Also great complement to other Rogue DPS souls.

    - Motif of Focus (Rank 1): Plays a Motif that increases the Critical Hit and Spell Critical Hit chance of party and raid members by 30%. Lasts 5 seconds. CD: 30sec.
    I can see that trampling over Motif of Bravery, but hey at least it give the Bard option, There could raid composition that favor heavily Crit. That's still a mini-Bloodlust, and your dear co-raiders will know who to thanks when they see crits all over their screen!!

    - Motif of Tenacity(Rank 1): Plays a Motif that reduces the damage taken by party and raid members by 15%. Lasts 5 seconds. CD: 30sec.
    The defensive motif. Your raid is taking lots of damage? Your raid leader decide that you should save the Motif CD for a Motif of Tenacity during this phase where the boss is spewing damage on your raid or tank? You throw the Motif just at the right time to prevent a wipe while you managed to throw some Motif of Focus before? What are you? A Winner, that's what you are!

    - Motif of Regeneration(Rank 1): Plays a Motif that heals up to 10 party and raid members for 53 health every 3 seconds. Lasts 15 seconds.
    I don't like this one! It kinda don't belong as a Motif and should have been a Verse Imo. This should have been the only thing that we have to refresh again and again and again, because with this ability we are actually doing something! We are healing peeps! A better implementation for it would have been:
    (NEW VERSION)
    - Verse of Regeneration: Plays a Verse that heals up to 10 party and raid members for 53 health every 3 seconds. Lasts 15 seconds.
    If you raid as a Bard, this thing should be up 100% of the time, and you will enjoy having it up!

    - Motif of Grandeur(Rank 1): Plays a Motif that increases the amount of healing received by party and raid members by 15%. Lasts 5 seconds. CD: 30sec.
    When to use that instead of Motif of Tenacity? That's an excellent question, you guys will certainly enjoy finding the answer !

    Motif of Encouragement is perfect, don't touch it and don't hate on it! I love this ability !

    And Remember, They ALL Share the same cooldown, so you can't have 2 motifs up at the same time.

    There you have it. I hope those abilities will inspire you on what the Bard soul could be and how much fun it could be. Now if you could also make us less dependent on getting Verse of Joy and have capable dps, the world would be a perfect place, at least for me!
    Last edited by ControlBlue; 04-06-2011 at 10:44 PM.

  2. #2
    Plane Walker Kristi's Avatar
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    I would like some sort of utility as it is just a hassel to stop what you are doing every 25 seconds to refresh them. I don't see how that serves any lore to have to do so or how increasing the duration makes them overpowered. When you play for many hours straight it gets tedious refreshing them nonstop.

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    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Yep pretty much, I would prefer making them more fun, but even just increasing the duration would be a good start. It would make it a bit less boring, and a LOT less tedious.

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    Shadowlander
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    I'd like the option to make all our tunes electric sounding.

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    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Not gonna lie, that would be fun . I already spend some time trying to craft tunes with the different sounds of all abilities, it's fun. My idea for the Motifs having a CD would probably kill that, but if we get more Verses, we can use those instead, would be better in my opinion!

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple
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    I'm thinking of trying out Bard, but haven't because of what you guys are talking about.

    Anyone using a G15 or any mouse that macro these buff every 25 seconds so you don't have to do it? There's just no way I want to keep refreshing buff.

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    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Yea the buff refreshing is definitively not fun, and the fact that Bard dps is mediocre means that you can't even play the dps game. So yeahh you don't have that much incentive to play a Bard unless you have this urge to "heal and aid". As a Rogue we do not have any other option than Bard if we want to fill this role.

    I truly hope they are going to tweak the soul while they are buffing Rogue. Bard is definitively a signature soul for the game, Hell the thing that got me to buy the game was the idea of playing as a Bard. They would be wise to try to make it more fun!
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Well, you and I butted heads in another thread regarding the Bard. Still, as you offer support based suggestions, I'll offer some subjective feedback.

    My concern with your motif suggestions are that, while you did balance them by reducing their times and increasing effect, it would require a level of communication between raid members that nothing short of a good Ventrillo server can offer. While the healing one might be a more intuitive as you can react to a sudden drop in health bars as quick as a healer, the DPS boosting ones would actually require every DPS class synchronize their big hitting attacks to go off simultaneously. Aside from the nightmare of communication, doing so would actually *drop* the overall raid DPS: Every DPS soul has a certain optimal rotation that ensures that they can hit their peak damage over time. But everyone has this near instinctive urge to see those big numbers, so if, for example, an Assassin has 5 combo points up on a mob and is about to hit Final Blow, if they hear you on Vent announcing that you're about to use this, they will actually stop themselves from hitting it just long enough for you to cast it. Now multiply this effect by 15 people doing the same, and you've basically stopped all DPS for 5 seconds in favor of making the next 5 seconds hurt more. This isn't ideal especially if you're fighting a boss that triggers some sort of nasty effect if he's not under constant pressure.

    And in the frenzy of combat, no one will notice a single buff appear on their screen for 5 seconds if you don't announce it.

    And unfortunately, everyone WILL be expecting you to recast these Motifs every 30 seconds regardless of whether or not it's optimal. A DPS boost every 30 seconds is better than a DPS boost every two minutes, right? No way around that. Given the above, do you really want to make it even more tedious by actually announcing over vent that you're about to buff everyone every 30 seconds for a couple of hours? ;)

    Also, given their increase in power and decrease in duration, this means they will probably nerf Bardic Inspiration to only offer a 5 second boost instead of a 15 second one. Or change it entirely. I'm guessing they'll just turn it into a small boost in effect to all Motifs.

    As for Motif of Regeneration, I think your problem is simply one of wording as the only thing you're offering as a change is what to call it. But by turning it into a Verse instead of a Motif, you're actually nerfing it as it will no longer have an increased duration from Bardic Inspiration. More importantly, it'll throw Bards out of their mental space since everyone associates Motifs with constant general support, and Verses with "Oh crap!" moments.

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    By the way, I think people are putting too much emphasis on the pain of refreshing buffs every 30 seconds. Every class spends all their time hammering a sequence of buttons non stop also, whether it's tanking, healing or DPSing, so it's not like our rotation is more repetitive than most. My problem is with the *amount* of buttons to press. If each Motif could have a short 2 second cooldown, we could easily Macro them all into one hotkey and free up good hotkey spots for our other abilities.

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    Err, 10 second cooldown ... the macros would cycle back to the first after two seconds ;)

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infusco View Post
    Well, you and I butted heads in another thread regarding the Bard. Still, as you offer support based suggestions, I'll offer some subjective feedback.

    My concern with your motif suggestions are that, while you did balance them by reducing their times and increasing effect, it would require a level of communication between raid members that nothing short of a good Ventrillo server can offer. While the healing one might be a more intuitive as you can react to a sudden drop in health bars as quick as a healer, the DPS boosting ones would actually require every DPS class synchronize their big hitting attacks to go off simultaneously. Aside from the nightmare of communication, doing so would actually *drop* the overall raid DPS: Every DPS soul has a certain optimal rotation that ensures that they can hit their peak damage over time. But everyone has this near instinctive urge to see those big numbers, so if, for example, an Assassin has 5 combo points up on a mob and is about to hit Final Blow, if they hear you on Vent announcing that you're about to use this, they will actually stop themselves from hitting it just long enough for you to cast it. Now multiply this effect by 15 people doing the same, and you've basically stopped all DPS for 5 seconds in favor of making the next 5 seconds hurt more. This isn't ideal especially if you're fighting a boss that triggers some sort of nasty effect if he's not under constant pressure.

    And in the frenzy of combat, no one will notice a single buff appear on their screen for 5 seconds if you don't announce it.

    And unfortunately, everyone WILL be expecting you to recast these Motifs every 30 seconds regardless of whether or not it's optimal. A DPS boost every 30 seconds is better than a DPS boost every two minutes, right? No way around that. Given the above, do you really want to make it even more tedious by actually announcing over vent that you're about to buff everyone every 30 seconds for a couple of hours? ;)

    Also, given their increase in power and decrease in duration, this means they will probably nerf Bardic Inspiration to only offer a 5 second boost instead of a 15 second one. Or change it entirely. I'm guessing they'll just turn it into a small boost in effect to all Motifs.

    As for Motif of Regeneration, I think your problem is simply one of wording as the only thing you're offering as a change is what to call it. But by turning it into a Verse instead of a Motif, you're actually nerfing it as it will no longer have an increased duration from Bardic Inspiration. More importantly, it'll throw Bards out of their mental space since everyone associates Motifs with constant general support, and Verses with "Oh crap!" moments.
    I'm not worried about the communication "problem", it is actually a good thing as it would enable to separate good from baddies, the baddies would hold their dps and do less dps overall, the best will know how to synchronize their cd with your motifs. This is what gaming is about, we need things to separate people who perform well and from people who are doing worse. A good guild and a good bard will know how to fix this problem. In the worst case, it can be announced in raid chat with a macro.

    The thing with people expecting you to recast those buffs every 30 secs, the Bard or the raid will have to realize that casting one motif lock you out of the others for the next 30secs. You will need to manage and recognize when you should wait and when you should just go ahead and cast a motif mostly to fill the blanks.

    Motif of Regeneration do not belong as a motif. It has a different kind of effect (healing) and then would fit better as a Verse. However you actually raised a good point, the ability is actually pretty weak, and could benefit becoming an "oh ****" button. Other spec in the calling could spec in Bard for it in order to get another survivability ability. I could use a more condensed effect, like healing 30% hp of you and 5 raid members over a short period of time, and a get a CD like 1 or 2min. That would benefit not only the Bard soul but the Calling in general if the ability is low enough in the tree.

    Also the re-applying is a pain, every Bard agree on that, it not only is repetitive, but also near pointless because we are not really actually doing anything actively, we are just re-applying a buff, it is an important part of our time doing the same thing for no real results. It would take a designer less than an hour to change the duration to a more humane value. That would not really solve the identity crisis of the soul but at least it would make it easier on our nerves lol.

    Overall it's all about making Bard stop being passive and actually have the tools to be able to adapt to situations with tools that and a capacity to play the game with everyone else.
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infusco View Post
    Well, you and I butted heads in another thread regarding the Bard. Still, as you offer support based suggestions, I'll offer some subjective feedback.

    My concern with your motif suggestions are that, while you did balance them by reducing their times and increasing effect, it would require a level of communication between raid members that nothing short of a good Ventrillo server can offer. While the healing one might be a more intuitive as you can react to a sudden drop in health bars as quick as a healer, the DPS boosting ones would actually require every DPS class synchronize their big hitting attacks to go off simultaneously. Aside from the nightmare of communication, doing so would actually *drop* the overall raid DPS: Every DPS soul has a certain optimal rotation that ensures that they can hit their peak damage over time. But everyone has this near instinctive urge to see those big numbers, so if, for example, an Assassin has 5 combo points up on a mob and is about to hit Final Blow, if they hear you on Vent announcing that you're about to use this, they will actually stop themselves from hitting it just long enough for you to cast it. Now multiply this effect by 15 people doing the same, and you've basically stopped all DPS for 5 seconds in favor of making the next 5 seconds hurt more. This isn't ideal especially if you're fighting a boss that triggers some sort of nasty effect if he's not under constant pressure.

    And in the frenzy of combat, no one will notice a single buff appear on their screen for 5 seconds if you don't announce it.

    And unfortunately, everyone WILL be expecting you to recast these Motifs every 30 seconds regardless of whether or not it's optimal. A DPS boost every 30 seconds is better than a DPS boost every two minutes, right? No way around that. Given the above, do you really want to make it even more tedious by actually announcing over vent that you're about to buff everyone every 30 seconds for a couple of hours? ;)

    Also, given their increase in power and decrease in duration, this means they will probably nerf Bardic Inspiration to only offer a 5 second boost instead of a 15 second one. Or change it entirely. I'm guessing they'll just turn it into a small boost in effect to all Motifs.

    As for Motif of Regeneration, I think your problem is simply one of wording as the only thing you're offering as a change is what to call it. But by turning it into a Verse instead of a Motif, you're actually nerfing it as it will no longer have an increased duration from Bardic Inspiration. More importantly, it'll throw Bards out of their mental space since everyone associates Motifs with constant general support, and Verses with "Oh crap!" moments.
    Hmm I think that the comment about communication is wrong. At least to halfway competent players, you can easily have a 'raid standard' that the damage boost kicks in the moment the boss ticks onto a set percentage.

    Failing that, most classes have an ability to boost the amount of combo's that they have on a target quickly, so really it's just a l2p issue for the dps.

    That aside, I'm not sure how I feel about the OP's suggestions. I get a fair bit of RSI from raids as it is, and need to consider if this would add to it or not!

  13. #13
    Rift Chaser ControlBlue's Avatar
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    The real advantages of those would be that it would make it desirable for a raid to have more than one Bard. Assuming having the buff stack would not create some imbalance, which I suspect would not be the case :P, you could have the Bards coordinate their buff uptime. Hell, even in the case where the buff would not stack, you can have the Bards use some coordination to have the buffs up as much as possible, which would be like a mini-orchestra happening in your raid, wouldn't that be awesome ?

    And you would actually have more time to actually dps the target.
    ============ The Bard Soul Need A Total Rework! ============
    How to Make Bards More Fun! - Active Motifs vs. Passive Motifs.
    Bards Mechanics, Why They Are Lame - A Featured article on Rift Junkie discussing the Bard.
    The Bard as Pure Support - A 25+ page Thread on the role of Support and how it hold back Bards.
    Support/DPS Bard Prototype Soul - A prototype good Bard that would belong in the Rogue calling.

    A GOOD Saboteur Prototype Soul Tree! - No need for Nerfs!!

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    I think that instead of an ability bar Bards should get a Lute-themed interface, and in order to invoke abilities they will need to play the actual song corresponding to what it is they need to do. Wrong notes will cause the audience to boo which would reduce your stats.

    I think an appropriate number of notes needed for a skill would be no fewer than 8 (2 bars at 4/4 time playing only quarter notes).

    Latency might create some real difficulty for those abilities with sixteenth notes or tempos in cut-time.

    Banging on the keyboard harder would increase the amplitude of the sound, all the way to fff, which would result in your song having a greater effect.

    Two bards could also play a duet for increased or new effects.

    Your strings would occasionally break, costing you upwards of 10 plat for stings of the highest quality.

    The hope is that the class would become so overly complicated that people would clamor for, "Why can't motifs just be the way they used to be?"

  15. #15
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    What about a 51-point root ability perk to play a special motif to refresh all current active motifs? That way every 25-seconds, you play something once. Bards aren't exactly renowned for their DPS or heals, so let them do something other than mash every motif key, since you can't even effectively macro it.

    Perhaps even making it a coda? 1 combo point refreshes it by 6 seconds, and 6 seconds for every combo point in addition? This way, you can just play all your motifs at the beginning of the fight, and then your rotation would just be cadence-->assortment of situational codas. Keeping this coda active, as well as your codas of cowardice and distress up, wrath/fury for damage, and/or the restoration for heals? Then if they fall off, just re-apply them, and keep them up.

    I don't see this as particularly unfair, and my main is mage where I often play archon. We have a lot less to pay attention to in terms of upkeep, since everything lasts 5 minutes. Let's just make barding a bit less tedious?

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