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Thread: Rogues in 5 mans

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Rogues in 5 mans

    What roles can we fill in the typical 5 man dungeon? Just tank and dps? When are bards needed in groups?

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    In the typical 5-person dungeon? Bard, and that's it.

    We do have DPS and Tank souls, but in the current state of the game a rogue won't typically fulfill those roles.

    That being said, and I only mention this to answer your question fully, I am VERY good with my rogue, and have VERY good gear. I can out dps most of the warriors/mages on my shard. The game is still new, so there aren't many good or better players yet. So a great player with a rogue can still produce more than an average player of any other class. Good players on a mage/warrior will still out dps any rogue no matter how good they are though.
    Last edited by Conan The Librarian; 04-04-2011 at 02:28 PM.
    "We've got a particularly troublesome ability on Saboteurs that's causing them to do better damage in the game than anybody else." -- Scott Hartsman

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    You can do sufficient dps to fill that role. Rogues are behind but you do plenty to finish any T1 or T2 dungeon. (For most players, skill and gear with classes will outweigh the classes themselves, even)

    Rogues can do any of the roles: tanking, dps, off-heals. I would say tanking is competitive with other tanking classes (or pretty close), emphasizing that it takes some skill to rogue tank.

    Bard-off-healing is fine but having only 5 players for buffs makes the buffs less valuable.

    Edit: I mean fine in terms of completing T1/T2 type dungeons. I think it's still too low overall in terms of heals or buffs or dps.
    Last edited by Xney; 04-04-2011 at 02:29 PM.

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    Shadowlander
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    So basically if I want to tank/dps/heal albeit the dps is kinda low I should stay with my cleric?

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    Telaran Mazian's Avatar
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    dps only.

    There are several encounters which gear check the party. The Bard cannot do sufficient healing to be considered a main healer, and it takes a superior player to play a rogue as a tank in expert content (not impossible like being a main healer, just much more difficult). As such, rogues are relegated to DPS only.

    Currently, I'm seeing warriors and mages being competative with lesser gear, and a superior player can get more out of a warrior on single targets and a mage on multiple targets than the rogue can.

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    For the more difficult encounters in T2, bard is less of a good choice because their off-heals are not as strong as chloros. Bards also don't really add any dps and their buffs are less good with 5-mans. There are one or two encounters where I think bard is better where there's steady aoe type damage.

    I disagree on the tanking, I think rogues are fine, if more difficult on the tank. If you're not good at playing rogue tank, it's going to be a lot harder, though. Also, it's hard to get rogue tanking gear at present without buying it. (Basically all rogue tanks buy their tanking gear)

    DPS should be viable, though you have to work harder to do less.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conan The Librarian View Post
    In the typical 5-person dungeon? Bard, and that's it.

    We do have DPS and Tank souls, but in the current state of the game a rogue won't typically fulfill those roles.

    That being said, and I only mention this to answer your question fully, I am VERY good with my rogue, and have VERY good gear. I can out dps most of the warriors/mages on my shard. The game is still new, so there aren't many good or better players yet. So a great player with a rogue can still produce more than an average player of any other class. Good players on a mage/warrior will still out dps any rogue no matter how good they are though.
    So basically rogues are no good unless it's you playing them? Sorry if it's not what you intended to say, but it is exactly what it sounds like.

    OP: "What roles can we fill in the typical 5 man dungeon?"
    I read that as a question about what are rogues generally capable of. Yes, exceptional player can pretty much outweigh the fact that he's playing a currently underpowered class. But that doesn't make the class itself any better.

    So, I'll go with your first advice: bard, and that's it Whether it's dps or tanking, other classess can do the job better. So we're left with support and off--healing. For now.

  8. #8
    Ascendant exLupo's Avatar
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    Rogues tank well up to and including raids. Don't listen to these bitter old women. Bard is loved in instances and dps is.. having a little trouble now but there are some promising builds showing just as high output as the best from war and mage lands.

    If you want to play a skeevy rogue then play a skeevy rogue. You won't ever really main heal but, other than that, the world is your oyster. There are always going to be balance issues but if you have faith that it'll get sorted then you'll be farther ahead when you do. And, if you can make a bad build rock, you'll be damn near OP when it's balanced for the masses.
    There is no better cause to fight than the simple need that blood be spilled. Do not fight because you receive reward or praise. Fight because that other bastard exists solely to die at the end of your blade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by avariel View Post
    So basically rogues are no good unless it's you playing them? Sorry if it's not what you intended to say, but it is exactly what it sounds like.

    OP: "What roles can we fill in the typical 5 man dungeon?"
    I read that as a question about what are rogues generally capable of. Yes, exceptional player can pretty much outweigh the fact that he's playing a currently underpowered class. But that doesn't make the class itself any better.

    So, I'll go with your first advice: bard, and that's it Whether it's dps or tanking, other classess can do the job better. So we're left with support and off--healing. For now.
    Yeah you said it better than I did. Everything else being equal, Bard is the only build a rogue will bring to a 5-person dungeon. Any other role can be filled better by another class.

    The one exception, is if your party wants to skip all of the trash mobs. If you bring 3 rogues, you can skip all trash pulls and go straight to the bosses, except for a few of the non-elite pack mobs.
    Last edited by Conan The Librarian; 04-04-2011 at 02:45 PM.
    "We've got a particularly troublesome ability on Saboteurs that's causing them to do better damage in the game than anybody else." -- Scott Hartsman

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    Ascendant exLupo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conan The Librarian View Post
    Any other role can be filled better by another class.
    RS have higher mobility and better survival stats than any other tank. You have to ramp up a little and actually do more than macrosmash but it's easier on healers vs heavy targets than any other tank. The downside is it's got middling AoE but if people mark targets, it's a non-issue.
    Last edited by exLupo; 04-04-2011 at 02:49 PM.
    There is no better cause to fight than the simple need that blood be spilled. Do not fight because you receive reward or praise. Fight because that other bastard exists solely to die at the end of your blade.

  11. #11
    Shadowlander
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    Lupo, i would be very intersted in seeing your rogue, if you think we have better survivability than other tanks. I didnt have a problem tanking anything up to experts, then it took a horrifying turn for the worst. If your talking from pre-50 experience, thats probably not what is being discussed.
    Last edited by Roguetanklol; 04-04-2011 at 02:56 PM.

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    500 dps get you through any tier 1 and 2 np what so ever and even if rogue are gimp as **** right now 500 dps is cake to do but for raids its gona be a different story.

  13. #13
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    BTW, many groups arent looking at a DPS meter. Its not like WoW where 80% are running recount, so you dont have to worry about most groups *****ing about your low DPS. Just do your rotation, and have fun.

  14. #14
    Ascendant exLupo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roguetanklol View Post
    Lupo, i would be very intersted in seeing your rogue
    I don't have one personally, I'm looking at this from the perspective of a healer and I prefer a well played RS to other tanks. Now.. finding a well played RS is another story. It's a build that rewards strong play as much as it punishes poor use.

    After I get my cleric to where I want it I'm working on a mage (I love archon, call me crazy). Rogue is third in the tree but I've been tanking almost exclusively since TBC and am excited to try something new. I would like more behind-the-wheel experience but I figure the perspective of a healer is relevant to this discussion.

    As to raids, that's hearsay but the claims are out there in the rogue forum. My raiding life ended years ago, don't have the stomach for the scheduling and grind anymore.
    Last edited by exLupo; 04-04-2011 at 02:59 PM.
    There is no better cause to fight than the simple need that blood be spilled. Do not fight because you receive reward or praise. Fight because that other bastard exists solely to die at the end of your blade.

  15. #15
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    Healer perspective is a valid point of view, IMO 2 halves to the same coin. If you have soem time, i would read True Confessions of a Rogue Tank, dont remember who wrote it, but its on the forums. He has a very good breakdown of the issues we deal with, and the struggles were dealing with.

    Many rage on here too, mostly because after spending so much time with the class, we find that even with the best gear out there, we sometimes drop like a rock on trash. Any good tank would immediatly try to get better, and not let things like that happen again, but after 150+ instances in experts (T1 and T2) i can honestly say that skill is a big part of it, but at some point or another you will just wipe the group because of the class, and no amount of skill will save you.

    BTW, i would recommend tanking while you level. Tanking pre-experts was a LOT of fun!

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