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Thread: The numbers just dont add up (PvE exclusive post!)

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
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    Default The numbers just dont add up (PvE exclusive post!)

    I've been reading loads of posts on his forum about rogue DPS being subpar compared to pretty much every other class. Many of those posts contain data from DPS meters people parsed while smacking a training dummy in town. So, being the inquisitive individual I am I downloaded both the Advanced Combat Tracker (ACT) and the Rift Junkies combat parser and did some testing of my own. I can't say which is more accurate, though both seemed pretty close to each other, but eventually I went with ACT simply because I liked its robust functionality better. What I discovered about my DPS surprised me and I hope it offers other rogues here a ray of hope that not all is lost. The first thing I did was test various builds and their DPS on the boss dummy in Meridian. My gear is mediocre - I'm in 2 pieces of T1 and the rest are epic drops from heroic T1 instances. I've still got a few blue items: my bow is a ~26 DPS blue crafted bow, and my boots and rings are level 48-50 blues. Other than that I wouldn't say stat-wise I'm very far behind a decked out T1 player.

    After doing some testing in Meridian on the dummies to optimize my rotations I started parsing my DPS in heroic instances to compare what numbers I was putting up versus DPS mages, clerics, warriors, and other rogues. Currently I have three roles set-up: a bard spec for support/healing (44 bard/17 assassin/5 riftstalker), a ranger spec for ranged and AE DPS (51 ranger/15 nightblade), and a nightblade melee DPS spec (41 nightblade/18 assassin/5 ranger). Before I started running some parses I just assumed that my DPS would be WAY below everyone else because, well ya know, that is what everyone says in this forum so that was my expectation! To my pleasant surprise, that was not the case. And quite often, I was out-DPSing everyone else in my group! Now, I know the first thing you are going to say will be "if you as a rogue were out-DPSing everyone else its just because (take your pick of excuse): a) they were probably newly minted 50s in greens and you just out-geared them; b) you knew you were parsing the fights so you were giving it 100% while they were being lackadaisical; c) those players you grouped with just flat out sucked and there is no way a rogue can come close to the DPS of mages/warriors/koala bears/etc.; d) who cares about DPS in a heroics, all that matters is your DPS in a raid!"

    Here is what I found out. Please note - there are so many variables when comparing the DPS of not only one class to another, but one player to another, that I would take any numbers (even mine) with a grain of salt. Two equally geared players can have vastly different DPS because of different specs, rotations (some rotations are suboptimal), effort (lets face reality, some people give 100% and others don't), attention (i.e. on phone and being distracted while DPSing), etc.

    1 - Comparing DPS of class A to class B based off what was parsed on a training dummy in town is fairly pointless. There are far too many variables in an actual instances (repositioning the mobs, melee needing to run in/out, amount of AEing needed, what buffs everyone has, etc.),. So that beastmaster warrior in all blues may have been able to achieve 700-800 sustained DPS on the training dummy in town, but in an actual instance where he/she needs to move, avoid cleaves, etc. his/her DPS is far, far less and his total damage contribution to a fight may be far less than someone doing 30% less DPS.

    2 - As you can imagine, my bard spec did the least DPS. I wasn't able to break 200 DPS (usually in the 150-170 DPS range. But my HPS was 270-300. My rotation typically included keeping up a 5 point Coda of Distress and Coda of Cowardice for the debff (that alone every minute consumed 10-12 seconds), then re-doing all 5 motifs every 30 seconds (which itself consumed 10 seconds of every minute). So right there I'm spending about a third of every minute just buffing/debuffing and my only damage is from cadence or Power Chord. The remainder of the time was spent alternating 5-point Coda of Restoration or Coda of Wrath/Fury (depending is single or multiple targets) with an occasional Verse of Vitality, Riff, and Virtuoso sprinkled in for either burst DPS or burst healing (typically the latter).

    3 - My DPS as melee is very situational depending on if I can just stand still and spam attacks versus if I need to constantly be on the move and/or repositioning. On straight up tank-n-spanks where I didn't have to move I've see my DPS for a sustained boss fight in the mid 600s. But typically most encounters aren't as melee friendly as they are ranged friendly (not a news flash there and Trion has admitted to this). Also, ranged tends to have one huge advantage over melee DPS in that ranged require less group healing which means less strain on your main healer or less need for an off-healer. I rarely find myself on my melee DPS role just because my ranged role is equal, if not better, in almost every situation.

    4 - My 51 point ranger spec typically does 100-150 more singe target DPS than an equally geared melee rogue. This is usually due to point #3. Also, my ranger spec hits 1,200-1,500 DPS when AEing over 3-4 mobs (the more the better and if less than 3-4 mobs it drops below 1K DPS ). Few, if any, melee DPS rogue specs (of equal gear) can do that much damage on multi-pack pulls (though if your melee DPS rogue spec can I'm sure we are going to hear about it ). Also, although I haven't had the opportunity to test this extensively, my 51 ranger spec seems to handily out DPS most Marksman DPS rogue specs. My inability to test this in an instance primarily results from the fact that I am typically either the only rogue in my group or the other rogue is a melee DPS spec (there just doesn't seem to be many marksmans out there). I did try various MM specs on a dummy myself, but I found the DPS to be lacking compared to my ranger spec and I disliked how the MM pedestal required me to stay motionless.

    4 - How did I compare DPS wise (this is really what you want to know so you can flame me and say its all moot since everything changes in a raid or on boss XYZ in such and such T2 instance, etc.)?
    On my 51 ranger spec, most mages easily out DPS me when it comes to AEing (and by a long shot - like 500+ DPS). I seemed to do far more AE damage than equally geared warriors, melee rogues, or DPS clerics (though on one heroic run this DPS cleric was doing around 500 DPS more than me on AE packs - don't know his spec though but his single target DPS was less than mine).
    For single target DPS, I am able to hang with most other DPS classes fairly equally (as long as my pet stays alive), though it seems most DPS clerics lag behind. For example, looking at the parses from the heroic FLH I ran earlier, I was typically doing anywhere from 350-628 DPS, which is about the same as the DPS mages we had in our group. Why such a huge range you ask? Simple, many fights require movement, repositioning, stopping DPS to CC/silence, etc. Its a rarity that you are DPSing balls to the wall without some sort of break in your DPS.

    All in all I have found my DPS as a rogue is not terribly behind that of my counterparts. I am often able to not only match their DPS, but surpass it. It seems the biggest factor related to what DPS each class produces is really simply situational factors. As a ranger I can park my but in one spot 30+ meters out, sick my pet on the mob, and plink away and produce some fairly constant DPS. And when I need to move I can easily fire most my attacks while I am mobile so I don't suffer a substantial drop in my DPS (and while I'm repositioning my pet is doing constant DPS). Admittedly I may find this experience fades quickly once I progress from T1s to T2 and eventually to raids and see the other DPS classes begin to surpass me. But until then, and since most players in the game aren't in T2s or raids, I hope my experience here helps to bring a measure of hope to other rogues who think their DPS is constantly subpar.

    Also, I think this self loathing on this forum needs to stop because it has in effect become a self fulfilling prophecy for many rogues. Not only have they convinced themselves their DPS is subpar, but all of our griping about it has begun to convince other classes as well. Again, this very well may be true in end-game raiding, but from my experiences at least in T1s it is unfounded. An equally geared rogue CAN be on par with DPS mages, warriors, etc. and can be a valued member any group bringing excellent utility, versatility, and DPS.
    Last edited by Godzillamax; 04-04-2011 at 12:42 PM.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    china wants their wall back

  3. #3
    Champion
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    If you'd consider raids as a "fair" comparison, we're behind even more than on dummies. Just a FYI.

    We're not as woefully behind as some people think though, but we are fighting an uphill battle.

  4. #4
    Rift Chaser
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    You evidence is anecdotal at very best you comparing yourself to a pug... i stomped a few warriors and mage on dps in t2 that just has to do with their skill/trying. Once i step into t2 with competent warrior i get slaughtered, i ll do everything pop energy seeds watch cd etc and i still fall 150-300 short of them.
    You did a nice post but your comparison is simply not valid there are too many uneven variables like gear, skill, trying, aoe.
    The complain all around is strictly single target dps, with same gear and skill lvl warrior/mage will beat out rogues easily.

  5. #5
    Champion of Telara
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    (though if your melee DPS rogue spec can I'm sure we are going to hear about it ).
    With NB/BD/AS I'm hitting 500-900 on triples, and higher on larger AOE pulls. Not really the best AOe spec, to be sure. Weapon Flare is solid on large pulls (1700 sustained), but it's balanced for hitting up to 8 targets.


    I seemed to do far more AE damage than equally geared warriors, melee rogues, or DPS clerics (though on one heroic run this DPS cleric was doing around 500 DPS more than me on AE packs - don't know his spec though but his single target DPS was less than mine).
    I would expect a Warr to do equivalent AOE DPS to a Ranger spec. Range Clerics can hit higher on middle-to-large pulls. They have some nasty low-target AOE combos in Inq/Cab. Stormcallers still wtfwin AOE though.

    Melee Rogues are relatively lackluster in the AOE department, except for Compound Attack from BD, and no one goes heavy BD.


    For single target DPS, I am able to hang with most other DPS classes fairly equally (as long as my pet stays alive),
    For stable fights, I would expect the order to be:

    Warr > Mage = melee Cleric > melee Rogue = range Cleric > range Rogue


    Warriors are still the main outlier -- from what I've seen they still parse 100-200 dps higher in the same conditions and gear as other classes.

    Rogues aren't very far behind, but they are behind.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzillamax View Post
    I've been reading loads of posts on his forum about rogue DPS being subpar compared to pretty much every other class. Many of those posts contain data from DPS meters people parsed while smacking a training dummy in town. So, being the inquisitive individual I am I downloaded both the Advanced Combat Tracker (ACT) and the Rift Junkies combat parser and did some testing of my own. I can't say which is more accurate, though both seemed pretty close to each other, but eventually I went with ACT simply because I liked its robust functionality better. What I discovered about my DPS surprised me and I hope it offers other rogues here a ray of hope that not all is lost. The first thing I did was test various builds and their DPS on the boss dummy in Meridian. My gear is mediocre - I'm in 2 pieces of T1 and the rest are epic drops from heroic T1 instances. I've still got a few blue items: my bow is a ~26 DPS blue crafted bow, and my boots and rings are level 48-50 blues. Other than that I wouldn't say stat-wise I'm very far behind a decked out T1 player.

    After doing some testing in Meridian on the dummies to optimize my rotations I started parsing my DPS in heroic instances to compare what numbers I was putting up versus DPS mages, clerics, warriors, and other rogues. Currently I have three roles set-up: a bard spec for support/healing (44 bard/17 assassin/5 riftstalker), a ranger spec for ranged and AE DPS (51 ranger/15 nightblade), and a nightblade melee DPS spec (41 nightblade/18 assassin/5 ranger). Before I started running some parses I just assumed that my DPS would be WAY below everyone else because, well ya know, that is what everyone says in this forum so that was my expectation! To my pleasant surprise, that was not the case. And quite often, I was out-DPSing everyone else in my group! Now, I know the first thing you are going to say will be "if you as a rogue were out-DPSing everyone else its just because (take your pick of excuse): a) they were probably newly minted 50s in greens and you just out-geared them; b) you knew you were parsing the fights so you were giving it 100% while they were being lackadaisical; c) those players you grouped with just flat out sucked and there is no way a rogue can come close to the DPS of mages/warriors/koala bears/etc.; d) who cares about DPS in a heroics, all that matters is your DPS in a raid!"

    Here is what I found out. Please note - there are so many variables when comparing the DPS of not only one class to another, but one player to another, that I would take any numbers (even mine) with a grain of salt. Two equally geared players can have vastly different DPS because of different specs, rotations (some rotations are suboptimal), effort (lets face reality, some people give 100% and others don't), attention (i.e. on phone and being distracted while DPSing), etc.

    1 - Comparing DPS of class A to class B based off what was parsed on a training dummy in town is fairly pointless. There are far too many variables in an actual instances (repositioning the mobs, melee needing to run in/out, amount of AEing needed, what buffs everyone has, etc.),. So that beastmaster warrior in all blues may have been able to achieve 700-800 sustained DPS on the training dummy in town, but in an actual instance where he/she needs to move, avoid cleaves, etc. his/her DPS is far, far less and his total damage contribution to a fight may be far less than someone doing 30% less DPS.

    2 - As you can imagine, my bard spec did the least DPS. I wasn't able to break 200 DPS (usually in the 150-170 DPS range. But my HPS was 270-300. My rotation typically included keeping up a 5 point Coda of Distress and Coda of Cowardice for the debff (that alone every minute consumed 10-12 seconds), then re-doing all 5 motifs every 30 seconds (which itself consumed 10 seconds of every minute). So right there I'm spending about a third of every minute just buffing/debuffing and my only damage is from cadence or Power Chord. The remainder of the time was spent alternating 5-point Coda of Restoration or Coda of Wrath/Fury (depending is single or multiple targets) with an occasional Verse of Vitality, Riff, and Virtuoso sprinkled in for either burst DPS or burst healing (typically the latter).

    3 - My DPS as melee is very situational depending on if I can just stand still and spam attacks versus if I need to constantly be on the move and/or repositioning. On straight up tank-n-spanks where I didn't have to move I've see my DPS for a sustained boss fight in the mid 600s. But typically most encounters aren't as melee friendly as they are ranged friendly (not a news flash there and Trion has admitted to this). Also, ranged tends to have one huge advantage over melee DPS in that ranged require less group healing which means less strain on your main healer or less need for an off-healer. I rarely find myself on my melee DPS role just because my ranged role is equal, if not better, in almost every situation.

    4 - My 51 point ranger spec typically does 100-150 more singe target DPS than an equally geared melee rogue. This is usually due to point #3. Also, my ranger spec hits 1,200-1,500 DPS when AEing over 3-4 mobs (the more the better and if less than 3-4 mobs it drops below 1K DPS ). Few, if any, melee DPS rogue specs (of equal gear) can do that much damage on multi-pack pulls (though if your melee DPS rogue spec can I'm sure we are going to hear about it ). Also, although I haven't had the opportunity to test this extensively, my 51 ranger spec seems to handily out DPS most Marksman DPS rogue specs. My inability to test this in an instance primarily results from the fact that I am typically either the only rogue in my group or the other rogue is a melee DPS spec (there just doesn't seem to be many marksmans out there). I did try various MM specs on a dummy myself, but I found the DPS to be lacking compared to my ranger spec and I disliked how the MM pedestal required me to stay motionless.

    4 - How did I compare DPS wise (this is really what you want to know so you can flame me and say its all moot since everything changes in a raid or on boss XYZ in such and such T2 instance, etc.)?
    On my 51 ranger spec, most mages easily out DPS me when it comes to AEing (and by a long shot - like 500+ DPS). I seemed to do far more AE damage than equally geared warriors, melee rogues, or DPS clerics (though on one heroic run this DPS cleric was doing around 500 DPS more than me on AE packs - don't know his spec though but his single target DPS was less than mine).
    For single target DPS, I am able to hang with most other DPS classes fairly equally (as long as my pet stays alive), though it seems most DPS clerics lag behind. For example, looking at the parses from the heroic FLH I ran earlier, I was typically doing anywhere from 350-628 DPS, which is about the same as the DPS mages we had in our group. Why such a huge range you ask? Simple, many fights require movement, repositioning, stopping DPS to CC/silence, etc. Its a rarity that you are DPSing balls to the wall without some sort of break in your DPS.

    All in all I have found my DPS as a rogue is not terribly behind that of my counterparts. I am often able to not only match their DPS, but surpass it. It seems the biggest factor related to what DPS each class produces is really simply situational factors. As a ranger I can park my but in one spot 30+ meters out, sick my pet on the mob, and plink away and produce some fairly constant DPS. And when I need to move I can easily fire most my attacks while I am mobile so I don't suffer a substantial drop in my DPS (and while I'm repositioning my pet is doing constant DPS). Admittedly I may find this experience fades quickly once I progress from T1s to T2 and eventually to raids and see the other DPS classes begin to surpass me. But until then, and since most players in the game aren't in T2s or raids, I hope my experience here helps to bring a measure of hope to other rogues who think their DPS is constantly subpar.

    Also, I think this self loathing on this forum needs to stop because it has in effect become a self fulfilling prophecy for many rogues. Not only have they convinced themselves their DPS is subpar, but all of our griping about it has begun to convince other classes as well. Again, this very well may be true in end-game raiding, but from my experiences at least in T1s it is unfounded. An equally geared rogue CAN be on par with DPS mages, warriors, etc. and can be a valued member any group bringing excellent utility, versatility, and DPS.
    People here will not listen.. They only want to see that their class be it whatever is doing worse than others and should be buffed.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    And of course 3d has to pop in with his troll remarks..

    There is nothing wrong with optimism, I agree that the overall feel of the forums is far too negative, but the points provided above just don't prove anything conclusively due to the uncontrolled nature of the testing.

    There have been numerous parses provided by skilled individuals with decent gear that back up a lot of the sentiments one finds in the rogue forums.

  8. #8
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lajiskin View Post
    And of course 3d has to pop in with his troll remarks..

    There is nothing wrong with optimism, I agree that the overall feel of the forums is far too negative, but the points provided above just don't prove anything conclusively due to the uncontrolled nature of the testing.

    There have been numerous parses provided by skilled individuals with decent gear that back up a lot of the sentiments one finds in the rogue forums.
    Hey man, 3d has witnessed Rogues in this game 2-shotting people. That's proof enough that we don't actually need a buff. If anything, we should be nerfed.

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