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Thread: Weapon Normalization

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Default Weapon Normalization

    I just had a conversation where someone was convinced that the top end value of a weapon is used for damage calculations in skills where it says "weapon damage plus XX." I had always been told that it used a normalized value, so that all weapons with the same DPS would contribute the same amount of damage for the weapon damage portion.

    Whats the verdict? Does top end damage matter for skill damage calcuations, or is a normalized value used for all weapons with the same DPS?

    If top end does matter, then Abyssal Hatchet would be very good. But if it doesn't than my daggers are best for proc'ing Hellfire Blades and poisons. Anyway, I'd like community consensus to resolve this.

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    Shield of Telara
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    in beta 3 Trion normalized the weapons, also there is an internal cooldown on weapon enchantments, both of these render weapon speed meaningless. DPS matters not speed

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Didn't know about the ICD on weapon enchantments. Kinda Zzzz.

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    Koe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll03 View Post
    in beta 3 Trion normalized the weapons, also there is an internal cooldown on weapon enchantments, both of these render weapon speed meaningless. DPS matters not speed
    Jekyll, all you do is go around spreading misinformation.


    Weapon speed is still important, especially as melee.

    Go for DPS first, and if 2 weapons have the same DPS always go for the faster one. Yes, weapon enchants has an ICD--And you want to utilize that by having it proc EVERY ICD. You do this with faster weapons, by giving them the chances faster. Also, it's better for burst with scourge of darkness, and it's the best with serrated blades as that does NOT have an ICD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    Jekyll, all you do is go around spreading misinformation.


    Weapon speed is still important, especially as melee.

    Go for DPS first, and if 2 weapons have the same DPS always go for the faster one. Yes, weapon enchants has an ICD--And you want to utilize that by having it proc EVERY ICD. You do this with faster weapons, by giving them the chances faster. Also, it's better for burst with scourge of darkness, and it's the best with serrated blades as that does NOT have an ICD.
    you are trying to use logic instead of math. This game is built on math not logic. If speed maters as you say then why is it over say a 10 minute auto attack test that using 2 daggers you get the same % of damage from weapon pros as you do 2 axes or swords or maces or even 1 bow.

    Stop thinking of how you think it works and use math, the game is built on it, and it will ALWAYS be what governs it. You cannot use reason on things like this you must use math.

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    Koe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll03 View Post
    you are trying to use logic instead of math. This game is built on math not logic. If speed maters as you say then why is it over say a 10 minute auto attack test that using 2 daggers you get the same % of damage from weapon pros as you do 2 axes or swords or maces or even 1 bow.
    That's how it works in an ideal world. Just because something has a 20% proc chance, that doesn't mean it will always proc 1/5 times. Yes, if you take your total hits+procs over the entire game time, it will come to as close to 20% as the programmers allow. That is a HUGE sample and IDEAL. Statistics is not set in stone. So it procs, and the ICD starts. Right when the ICD ends, nothing is guaranteeing the proc. Nothing. So you give it MORE CHANCES, in a shorter timeframe, to ALLOW for the statistics.

    Stop thinking of how you think it works and use math, the game is built on it, and it will ALWAYS be what governs it. You cannot use reason on things like this you must use math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    That's how it works in an ideal world. Just because something has a 20% proc chance, that doesn't mean it will always proc 1/5 times. Yes, if you take your total hits+procs over the entire game time, it will come to as close to 20% as the programmers allow. That is a HUGE sample and IDEAL. Statistics is not set in stone. So it procs, and the ICD starts. Right when the ICD ends, nothing is guaranteeing the proc. Nothing. So you give it MORE CHANCES, in a shorter timeframe, to ALLOW for the statistics.
    you are trying to use reason on math... in the short term you can get statistcal data that shows faster weapons are better, and in another short test you could just prove the opposite. In the long term it does not matter the speed of the weapon. Its math, math cannot be reasoned with because it is set in stone (so to speak). Run enough short data sets and you can pick and choose what ones you like, do a test with just auto attack for an hour and regardless of weapon speed or number of weapons you will get the same damage percentage. Its math plain and simple.

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    Seems like they fixed this, to some degree at least. So, I'm posting it. Some testing I was doing, I never tried it in PvE.

    There are two things to watch for here.

    1) Two weapons of identical DPS, both equipped, with identical stats present on the char, deal a different max damage (going by crits here as they're consistently max). They're the Gloamwood mace/dagger of deliciousness that I bought to test with.

    2) By switching weapons around you can potentially increase, or decrease your damage done. I eventually get a 275~ hitting weapon doing 325 or something (been a while since I did/watched my clip). This is a bug. I've ran parses before and dealt say 400dps, then taken off both weapons, and ranged, then re-equiped them (out of combat mind you), then re-ran the SAME build, parse, rotation, weapons, stats, and had about a 150~ dps difference (edit: to clarify ;x +150 dps here). The skills deal visibly different damage with the same setups.

    Anyway, here is my clip - was showing it to a few folk and I made a report to Trion about it as well. Take it for what it is as I haven't tested it beyond target dummy's. Also, I don't think its the in-combat swapping thats doing it since I started right off the bat doing more damage than normal with the two weapons I am testing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kz4k0guyLc
    Last edited by Acro; 04-04-2011 at 01:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll03 View Post
    you are trying to use reason on math... in the short term you can get statistcal data that shows faster weapons are better, and in another short test you could just prove the opposite. In the long term it does not matter the speed of the weapon. Its math, math cannot be reasoned with because it is set in stone (so to speak). Run enough short data sets and you can pick and choose what ones you like, do a test with just auto attack for an hour and regardless of weapon speed or number of weapons you will get the same damage percentage. Its math plain and simple.
    You just don't get it.

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't normalization include a slightly higher proc chance (not proc rate) on slower weapon attacks to make up for the lack of speed?
    Last edited by WarTornPanda; 04-04-2011 at 02:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    You just don't get it.
    no you are the one that does not get it... Math governs the game, no matter what you say its bound by math, and no amount of reason or well wishing will change the algorithms that govern the game.

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    Telaran
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    Someone did testing on this stuff (it's possible that there are bugs on weapons outside of those tested):
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ics-Discussion

    - trinkets have an ICD.
    - poison does not have an ICD.
    - damage does appear to be normalized in those tests.

    [something of interest to me - can BOTH poisons proc on a single attack? if not, that might explain some minor weirdness in his results]

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    Koe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll03 View Post
    no you are the one that does not get it... Math governs the game, no matter what you say its bound by math, and no amount of reason or well wishing will change the algorithms that govern the game.
    No, you don't get it. Let's give an Axe 10 swings. 2.8 speed, so 28 seconds. Now, let's give that same time to a 1.8 dagger. That's 15.5~ swings, but we'll round down. 5 more swings in the same time frame. This allows for a more accurate sample, due to being larger, AND it allows more room for actuallity to meet the statistic. 20% chance is just that--A chance. Yes, you can average it into DPS, but it's still a statistic and could not happen once in those 10 swings. So, why not give it 5 more swings to give it that chance? I mean, the weapon DPS is the same and that's what matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    That's how it works in an ideal world. Just because something has a 20% proc chance, that doesn't mean it will always proc 1/5 times. Yes, if you take your total hits+procs over the entire game time, it will come to as close to 20% as the programmers allow. That is a HUGE sample and IDEAL. Statistics is not set in stone. So it procs, and the ICD starts. Right when the ICD ends, nothing is guaranteeing the proc. Nothing. So you give it MORE CHANCES, in a shorter timeframe, to ALLOW for the statistics.
    What you are not taking into consideration is, the proc has internal cooldown, so it will not proc again until the cool down is over, and then it will proc rather quickly anyways. On somehting like poisons, that proc on chance on hit, and have no ICD, I whole heartedly agree with you, but when we are looking at proc's with ICD on it, the actual up time most likely will not be affected by weapon speed, due to the time it can not proc again anyways.

  15. #15
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    in beta 3 Trion normalized the weapons,
    More like beta 5 or 6, and they didn't actually normalize it in the beta version that they announced the change. It was normalized by retail, however.


    also there is an internal cooldown on weapon enchantments, both of these render weapon speed meaningless.
    I'd like to see evidence of this ICD for Asn Poisons / NB Weap Enchants.


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't normalization include a slightly higher proc chance (not proc rate) on slower weapon attacks to make up for the lack of speed?
    Yes and no. "Normalization" itself is just a word.

    There are two different things that have, in various games, been explicitly normalized by devs:

    1. Ability damage normalized per attack speed. (so that slow weapons are not auto-win -- WoW struggled with this for the first 2 years)

    2. Proc rate normalized per attack speed. (so that fast weapons are not auto-win)


    The de-facto standard for #2 is if the tooltip says "HAS A CHANCE TO PROC" (aka vague), it is normalized using some formula for weapon speed. If the tooltip says "HAS XX% CHANCE TO PROC" (aka specific), it is not normalized -- the devs straight-up balanced it to work better with faster weapons. Or, they determine that the difference isn't that big.


    Internal cooldowns are used to prevent "super luck streaks". They're inherently useless for sustained / statistical balance. Sometimes they're also used to prevent 100% uptime of a proc buff effect, even though that's stupid, IMO.

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