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Thread: Proposed Rogue Changes - v1.2

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser
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    Default Proposed Rogue Changes - v1.2

    Besides a buff to base damage (some souls need this more than others), please take a look at the following suggestions to improve the Rogue class

    Assassin
    1) Backstab: This ability requires positioning to use, and therefore should do more damage than it does now. The issue seems to be a lack of armor penetration. This ability should ignore armor, just like puncture does.
    2) Serpent Strike: Move this into the soul tree as an optional ability. The problem is that if you want to use this for PvE, you need to pick up a whole bunch of PvP talents. Currently it makes a lot more sense to just use assassin to supplement other souls, rather than have it be your main soul for PvE.
    3) New 51 pt. ability to replace Serpent Strike: A finisher that does moderate damage and stuns the target. This would be used for PvP obviously and would be appropriately powerful given the amount of overall dps one would need to give up to get it.

    Bladedancer
    1) Reprisal and Disengage: Should proc off of crits instead of dodge/parry. Dodge/Parry is a lot more useful to tanks than DPS but obviously, a tank wouldn't spec into these abilities. Won't be OP since they both have CD's
    2) Combat Expertise: Once people start getting better gear, this ability isn't of much use. Consider a 5% increase to Crit or Attack Power instead.

    Bard
    1) Motiffs/Buffs/Debuffs: These should scale with the player's attack power. Just like with my heals, I want my other abilities to get better as my gear improves

    Marksman
    1) Marksman's and Sniper's pedestals: The problem with these abilities is that they conflict with the personality of the Marksman's tree, which is mobility and kiting. What is the point of the speed boosts if we need to stand in one spot to get a damage increase?
    Instead of a pedestal, make these skills passive.

    Marksman's Focus - With each attack the rogue gains focus, increasing damage by 2% for 10 seconds. This ability stacks up to 5 times.
    Sniper's Focus - With each attack the rogue gains focus, increasing damage by 5% for 10 seconds. This ability stacks up to 6 times.

    With this the same result is achieved, without sacrificing the Marksman's mobility.

    2) This soul is in the greatest need of a base damage increase.

    Nightblade
    No changes needed except for Living Flame. This is a 51 pt. talent, and it does less damage than Dancing Steel. For spending 51 points, it should be much more powerful.

    Ranger
    Very good soul, except it has the same problem NB has with a very weak 51 pt. ability. Consider making the 51 pt. ability a new type of pet. A new, more powerful pet would be a perfect reward for a ranger spending 51 points in this soul.

    Riftstalker
    1) Increase the range of Planar Attraction
    2) Grant an extra healing bonus when Guardian Phase is active, to bring healing received back up to 30%

    Saboteur
    1) Return Charge Booster to its original form. The change in making each charge calculate individually, and the armor penetration fixes were perfect, those were the only changes needed.
    2) Increase both the damage, and cooldown of bombs. Besides the Adhesive Bomb, these are rarely used in PvE or PvP. By increasing their damage we would have more situations in which it made sense to use them.
    "We've got a particularly troublesome ability on Saboteurs that's causing them to do better damage in the game than anybody else." -- Scott Hartsman

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    I disagree. Rogues are already horribly overpowered at least sub 50.

  3. #3
    Telaran Midrange's Avatar
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    Good post I think, pretty much covers it all.

  4. #4
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3dGrunge View Post
    I disagree. Rogues are already horribly overpowered at least sub 50.
    ow shut up .
    i rerolled yesterday to warrior becouse the only usefull spec for rogues at level 50 is bard atm,
    and thats boring as hell in pvp
    Last edited by Esxca; 04-03-2011 at 09:13 PM.

  5. #5
    Champion
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    Starting to see where the "Rogues are fine" trolls are coming from:

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dGrunge View Post
    sub 50.
    Quote Originally Posted by 3dGrunge View Post
    sub 50.
    Quote Originally Posted by 3dGrunge View Post
    sub 50.
    Kashta, 50 Rogue / Gwythiant, 41 Cleric / Ampere, 37 Mage

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    The game is not about being lvl 50. if you try to make rogues uber for lvl 50 they will be gods pre 50. They are already ridiculously over powered pre 50.
    I stated sub 50 as I do not have a 5-0 rogue yet to compare to. As of right now my rogue does a little worse damage than my pyro mage who is 5 levels higher.


    This is the problem with kids today. MMORPGS are not only about endgame. The whole leveling up part teh adventure thats what they are about.
    Last edited by 3dGrunge; 04-03-2011 at 09:21 PM.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    RS doesn't need the 30% healing bonus. In terms of survivability it is balanced almost perfectly. The two problems with RS right now are that Warrior tanks seem to do a lot (like 3x) more damage and are a lot better at holding AOE aggro. Increasing the range of Planar Attraction is definitely a big one that I'd absolutely love.

    RE: Bladedancer, I'd say this idea of being able to put a buff on another player that allows the BD to get its procs off of their dodges and parries would be a huge boon.

  8. #8
    Plane Walker
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    Nice constructive post. A very good idea to increase the synergy of the MM soul with out a rediculous over haul.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Carnagel's Avatar
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    Give marksman a 30% bleed tier 2 exactly like ranger for swift shot, and up the damage on rapid fire shot finisher to be the same, if not higher than the hasted shot finisher. Put an 'and damages surrounding enemies' on barbed shot, combo point on both static and fan out, can use bow abilities in melee range and replace the CQC in tier 5 with 'bow abilities used in melee range increase damage by 10%'

  10. #10
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnagel View Post
    Give marksman a 30% bleed tier 2 exactly like ranger for swift shot, and up the damage on rapid fire shot finisher to be the same, if not higher than the hasted shot finisher. Put an 'and damages surrounding enemies' on barbed shot, combo point on both static and fan out, can use bow abilities in melee range and replace the CQC in tier 5 with 'bow abilities used in melee range increase damage by 10%'
    I agree on the CP on at least static shot. I have also suggested a serrated blades like talent to replace sniper training or sharpshooter talents.
    Last edited by SvnStrSlm; 04-03-2011 at 09:38 PM.

  11. #11
    Telaran Ferociae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3dGrunge View Post
    The game is not about being lvl 50.
    Lol.... Wait.. What? You were serious?
    Like the girl who asked me "isn't life so sad when all you do is live?"

  12. #12
    Telaran Nyxxian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conan The Librarian View Post
    Besides a buff to base damage (some souls need this more than others), please take a look at the following suggestions to improve the Rogue class

    Assassin
    1) Backstab: This ability requires positioning to use, and therefore should do more damage than it does now. The issue seems to be a lack of armor penetration. This ability should ignore armor, just like puncture does.
    2) Serpent Strike: Move this into the soul tree as an optional ability. The problem is that if you want to use this for PvE, you need to pick up a whole bunch of PvP talents. Currently it makes a lot more sense to just use assassin to supplement other souls, rather than have it be your main soul for PvE.
    3) New 51 pt. ability to replace Serpent Strike: A finisher that does moderate damage and stuns the target. This would be used for PvP obviously and would be appropriately powerful given the amount of overall dps one would need to give up to get it.

    Bladedancer
    1) Reprisal and Disengage: Should proc off of crits instead of dodge/parry. Dodge/Parry is a lot more useful to tanks than DPS but obviously, a tank wouldn't spec into these abilities. Won't be OP since they both have CD's
    2) Combat Expertise: Once people start getting better gear, this ability isn't of much use. Consider a 5% increase to Crit or Attack Power instead.

    Bard
    1) Motiffs/Buffs/Debuffs: These should scale with the player's attack power. Just like with my heals, I want my other abilities to get better as my gear improves

    Marksman
    1) Marksman's and Sniper's pedestals: The problem with these abilities is that they conflict with the personality of the Marksman's tree, which is mobility and kiting. What is the point of the speed boosts if we need to stand in one spot to get a damage increase?
    Instead of a pedestal, make these skills passive.

    Marksman's Focus - With each attack the rogue gains focus, increasing damage by 2% for 10 seconds. This ability stacks up to 5 times.
    Sniper's Focus - With each attack the rogue gains focus, increasing damage by 5% for 10 seconds. This ability stacks up to 6 times.

    With this the same result is achieved, without sacrificing the Marksman's mobility.

    2) This soul is in the greatest need of a base damage increase.

    Nightblade
    No changes needed except for Living Flame. This is a 51 pt. talent, and it does less damage than Dancing Steel. For spending 51 points, it should be much more powerful.

    Ranger
    Very good soul, except it has the same problem NB has with a very weak 51 pt. ability. Consider making the 51 pt. ability a new type of pet. A new, more powerful pet would be a perfect reward for a ranger spending 51 points in this soul.

    Riftstalker
    1) Increase the range of Planar Attraction
    2) Grant an extra healing bonus when Guardian Phase is active, to bring healing received back up to 30%

    Saboteur
    1) Return Charge Booster to its original form. The change in making each charge calculate individually, and the armor penetration fixes were perfect, those were the only changes needed.
    2) Increase both the damage, and cooldown of bombs. Besides the Adhesive Bomb, these are rarely used in PvE or PvP. By increasing their damage we would have more situations in which it made sense to use them.
    I'm not a rogue expert by any means, but most of this seems pretty reasonable. I hope the devs take a look at your suggestions. I think the MM ones in particular seem good.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3dGrunge View Post
    I disagree. Rogues are already horribly overpowered at least sub 50.
    ****,, I just got hit by a pryo mage for 1384 damage followed by 3846

  14. #14
    Plane Touched Infamous22's Avatar
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    change blade dancer flash of steel.

    this shiza is re****ulous.

    Warrior Bullrush:
    3-20m+3 sec stun

    Shaman Rush
    3-20m+70% snare 6(??) sec

    BD Rush
    8-20m +1 sec root. (the root will sometimes not apply, often due to immunity, and often due to bug)

    like WTF? give me a damn 50% snare for 10secs and call it a day.
    Last edited by Infamous22; 04-03-2011 at 09:59 PM.
    Rogue.
    i think..therefore i am

  15. #15
    Telaran Daergo's Avatar
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    Default logical fallacy

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dGrunge View Post
    The game is not about being lvl 50.
    Let me fix this for you: "The game is not ONLY about being lvl 50." Ahh, much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dGrunge View Post
    if you try to make rogues uber for lvl 50 they will be gods pre 50.
    This is your claim: IF rogues are strong at level 50, THEN they will be strong before 50. I don't think this holds. Many specs are only possible because all 66 points are available to use, which would require level 50. If we change this to be "THEN they will be strong at some point before 50" it is harder to disprove, but I'm sure it is possible (ex for clerics: Justicar tank in some of the betas *shudders*).

    TLDR: this statement of yours doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dGrunge View Post
    They are already ridiculously over powered pre 50.


    I stated sub 50 as I do not have a 5-0 rogue yet to compare to. As of right now my rogue does a little worse damage than my pyro mage who is 5 levels higher.


    This is the problem with kids today. MMORPGS are not only about endgame. The whole leveling up part teh adventure thats what they are about.
    Ok. So, as you said, end-game is not ALL that matters, but that doesn't mean that it does NOT matter. This post is obviously focused on end-game. Any changes that are made would, of course, need to take in account levels 1-49 as well. As in any MMO, it is hard to understand the whole picture even when you've actually seen all of it. Because you haven't seen level 50 on a rogue, maybe there are things that haven't revealed themselves through your gameplay yet. I don't have a 50 rogue either - only a 50 cleric - so I guess I don't have much room to comment either.

    Neverthless, most of the changes do make logical sense, even if I don't know how the rogue souls all play as of now.

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