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Thread: Trions Rogue Pickle

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
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    Default Trions Rogue Pickle

    Just a theory here so feel free to respectfuly, a word most posters are confused on, disprove me. THIS IS NOT BEING STATED AS FACT, JUST ANALYSIS OF DATA I FOUND ROWING THROUGH THE QQ POST.

    So I started looking for parses of only real combat builds on t2 and up bosses. You know the relevant numbers. One thing I have found is that rogues seem to be capable of doing very good damage PVE, fully raid buffed that is. So I started thinking maybe the problem that Trion is dealing with is a scaling issue. Our stand alone DPS is clearly below the war and mage (pyro) callings. There are pleanty of parses to show this. BUT it seems this is only relevant due to PVP, the one place where you can only count on your own buffs as a sure thing. So how do they increase our base damage without blowing out PVE damage. Is it even possible for Trion to buff rogues when engaged in PVP combat only?

    http://s275.photobucket.com/albums/j...t=dpsmeter.png
    By the way here is a parse of a Life Rift raid with a rogue doing top DPS. THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT IN ALL SITUATIONS IT CAN BE DONE, ONLY THAT IS HAPPENING.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    The parse you linked is extremely skewed. That rogue was the only person in that raid with his level of gear. Simple proof would be the 3 warriors and the Inquisitor below him who are all 300 - 500dps below the average that those classes parse on average in T2 boss fights.

    Personally my guess would be a Fully T2 geared rogue fully runed, with fully min maxxed raid buffs, grouped with a bunch of people in blues or partial T1 gear based on the numbers presented by everyone except the rogue. there is a nightblade/sin build that can parse on average around 900+ fully raid buffed but the boost primarily comes from the overwhelming ammount of crit a rogue can aquire in a full raid environment. It has been well documented that attack power tends to be completely useless for all the rogue builds, and crit stacking will always be superior in the current state. But a rogue can only get the crit necessary to put out those kind of numbers in ideal situations. Also it requires that said rogue can stay in melee range the entire fight as nightblade DPS requires you to keep combat triggered buffs active at all times and 1 or 2 falling off makes their damage take a nosedive into very solid pavement.

    Meanwhile my guild who is probably the 3rd best on our shard has at least 2 warriors doing 990 - 1100 self buffed and still breaking 1300 raid buffed.
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  3. #3
    Plane Walker
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    Thank you for a proper response. Are those melee wariors or ranged? If so wouldn't the melee suffer from the same boss mechanics as the rogue? Can warriors hybrid melee and range to maintain that DPS where as rogues can't? Also, please don't take this the wrong way but being top 3 on the server does skew your results slighty as well. You are clearly in the upper level on player skill.

    I just wanna learn as much as I can on this issue. 50 Rogue by the way.

    BTW love the sig.
    Last edited by SvnStrSlm; 04-03-2011 at 12:46 AM.

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    I will explain it to the best of my ability. The DPS warriors mostly all keep bullrush in this abilities. They are some combination of Champ, paragon, beastmaster. The only acceptable rogue DPS spec for T2 raiding is Nightblade/assassin which has no form of quick engagement mechanic. Only the Bladedancer and Riftstalker souls offer that. So while the Warriors are re-engaging in under 1 second, said assassin takes from 2 - 5 seconds to re-engage depending on where he is or where the boss has been moved to.

    Also the warriors buffs are all passive and prebuffed prior to the engagement where the Nightblade/sin buffs are active and procced via their attacks. So when the nightblade/assassin has to disengage the boss for anythign longer then 10 seconds he tends to drop all his +crit, +attack +dmg +armor pen buffs he gets from his attacks. Just lots of little problems designed into the rogue souls that add up to a majorly dysfunctional soul when compared to the other melee dps class.

    I hope that helps clear some things up.
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  5. #5
    Telaran Wolfe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aandolas View Post
    I will explain it to the best of my ability. The DPS warriors mostly all keep bullrush in this abilities. They are some combination of Champ, paragon, beastmaster. The only acceptable rogue DPS spec for T2 raiding is Nightblade/assassin which has no form of quick engagement mechanic. Only the Bladedancer and Riftstalker souls offer that. So while the Warriors are re-engaging in under 1 second, said assassin takes from 2 - 5 seconds to re-engage depending on where he is or where the boss has been moved to.

    Also the warriors buffs are all passive and prebuffed prior to the engagement where the Nightblade/sin buffs are active and procced via their attacks. So when the nightblade/assassin has to disengage the boss for anythign longer then 10 seconds he tends to drop all his +crit, +attack +dmg +armor pen buffs he gets from his attacks. Just lots of little problems designed into the rogue souls that add up to a majorly dysfunctional soul when compared to the other melee dps class.

    I hope that helps clear some things up.
    It makes me so happy to see someone who finally understands what's going on.
    True mastery is to feel the flames of your passion, to dance with the fire, to live in it, to fully embrace the primal forces of destruction and creation, and not be burned to a cinder, to survive and prosper because you loved the flame, used the flame, but did not allow yourself to be consumed by it.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    Off topic, but:

    Aandolas, your sig is missing a couple random elements, like a cake and a 1 person vehicle/animal.

    Just thought you should go all the way if you are going to poke fun at the old spice commercials :P
    Last edited by Knarral; 04-03-2011 at 03:28 AM.
    I PvPed as a hunter.

    I am no stranger to neglect and underpowered classes.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Varvacsen's Avatar
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    perser is nothing its just pure numbers.. nothing all...

    i dont want to play NB for make good dps for pve or pvp.. my spec is Assassin and game give us choice for play what we want not what perser want ...

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varvacsen View Post
    perser is nothing its just pure numbers.. nothing all...

    i dont want to play NB for make good dps for pve or pvp.. my spec is Assassin and game give us choice for play what we want not what perser want ...
    You are entitled to play what you want of course, but NB and Assassin are probably the closest souls you will ever get in terms of synergy. They are, literally, perfect compliments of each other.

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    Ha thanks. I am always glad to help and offer as balanced an opinion as I can. I have been playing MMORPG's since release day on Everquest back in 1999. Lots of time and money spent learning how MMORPG gaming works, how balancing issues effect both sides of a game and how multiple small problems while almost unnoticeable on their own can add up to much larger problems. While I feel this game has a lot of potential, I think Trion would be well off to take a look at some fresh ideas and insight on their development team.

    Right now their biggest problem seems to be that they hired a hodge podge of developers from other failed games and added them to a development team of new game developers who had radical mind blowing ideas about how a game could work. I don't think all the people in those development sessions were in tune with each other. So the game ends up with a very well balanced and amazing Cleric calling, a well designed warrior calling that needed only a few minor tweaks and not the absolute nerf hammer they received. Then someone fell asleep while designing the Mage and Rogue callings.

    Mage and Rogue callings just both have a bunch of souls that don't go well together at all, and Rogue especially probably needs to be taken back to the drawing board and completely redeveloped. I think the Mage souls basic ideas are all great individually but when it came time to give them skills and make them useful it feels like they decided Pyro is gonna be our DPS/PVP soul, Stormcaller our AoE soul, Chloromancer a healing soul, and everything else feels like it either doesn't belong or in the case of Necro/Warlock needs to be a single soul and not 2 separate souls.

    I guess I just got caught up in the pre-release hype and let myself expect way to much out of a new company. Although I haven't given up hope on them, I do think they have already taken steps in the worst possible direction when it comes to fixing some of the games problems.

    I really do hope they prove me wrong.
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  10. #10
    Rift Disciple
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    Among all the classes, rogue has the most offensive souls. I'd bet as far as design goes, the fear was that if rogues had too much overall strength, it could stack up to potentially overpowered levels with the right soul combination.

    Seems to be playing out that way, as investing in multiple souls is where majority of "uber damage" output builds are getting their high marks from, albeit to toned down levels. What ticks me off is that you really have no room for fluff as it is, I can't get blinding powder because I need every tiny +% damage booster possible to compete. Gotta throw utility out, and even then its difficult keeping up.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Yes that is just another part of the problem. None of the classes are balanced by themselves. I mean my single target melee DPS build is 42NB/19Sin/5Ranger. Every ability I have is basic root abilities, I only pick up skills that are passive increases to damage/crit/AP . And with that spec I am looking at about 700dps with only my weapon enchants. How am I supposed to compare to my warrior guild-mate who does 990 consistently with only his self buffs.

    I guess I just wish Trion had listened back in the Alpha and Beta testing because people knew that rogue was hurting long before hte game launched. Ranger and MM specs were pretty damn good until Beta7 I think it was when they got the nerf hammer due to PVP balance issues. But as far as PVE they were right there with Warriors and slightly above mages.

    Now everything is just so out of whack if is headache inducing trying to point out hte problems and possible corrections and having to explain it over and over to people who dont understand or are typical FOTM bandwagon jumpers.
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  12. #12
    Telaran
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    Also, Rogues rock. Four of our souls are really fun to play even with low damage. But a little love would go a long way towards getting us into groups and raids a bit easier.
    Look at your post, now back to mine, now back to your post, now back to mine. Sadly, it isn't mine, but if you stopped being nonconstructive and dumb and started posting about something that makes sense, it could look like it's mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're on a page with the post your post could look like. Anything is possible when you post like me, and not like an idiot.

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