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Thread: Mechanical Rogue Issues

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Mechanical Rogue Issues

    Note: This is based on presumption and perception. I can't read how things actually work, but I can see how things seems to work.

    Our enemies are:

    1. Global Cooldown.
    I'll tie many issues back to this. Yes, we have a 1.0 second GC. This is very handy because it allows a burn. If your fight is going to continue above, let's say, 5-6 seconds however it's a burden. With all our mainstream abilities costing 30, with only a few landing at 20 or 40, and energy regenerating at 20 per seconds, we have an effective GC of 1.5 second - but with 66% less return than other classes, which I will approach later on.
    Previously, auto attack would fill the void the regeneration gaped left (even back when Energy regeneration worked differently). But as ya'll know, currently, auto attack deals negligible damage now, but there's been no compensation.

    2. Endless Resource!!11!!
    Energy is endless. Pre-50, this may have been a valid argument. However, any decently soul pointed Mage has infinite mana, and has no pauses due to being energy starved. The same generally applies to Clerics as well, even though they don't have the exact same ease as Mages.
    On top of this, Intelligence and Wisdom gear scales the caster, meaning they have more of their resource and regenerate it quickly. Failing that, they have huge mana potions every 3 minutes.
    I'm unsure how the workings of a warrior is. I know tanks are power drained mostly.
    Regardless, compared to the actually finite resources - it's actually energy that's the least "endless" per see, as while we regenerate it faster, we are also constantly out of it if we want to produce any form of DPS.

    3. AP return
    I've arranged my gear around not focusing on attack power at all. Gear with +crit and +endurance gives me the bigger survivability and larger return in damage. Why's that?
    To make this illustration, I'll mention that I've got 5 pieces of T2 epics, and the rest is T1 epics. I use T2 epic weapons, both ranged and melee.
    Nude (with weapons), my attack power is 165.
    Fully dressed, my attack power is 396. I don't use anything from soul trees to increase Attack Power.
    A difference of 231. Sounds much doesn't it?
    With a 1 second GC, it means my attack hits for 23.1 point less damage per hit when I'm nude compared to wearing a pretty decent kit. With the normal wait of 1.5 seconds due to energy regeneration and no return on AP for auto-attacks, it means I'm effectively doing 15.25 less damage per hit.
    This would have been a large perceptual gain if my attacks hit for 10. They don't.
    If they are hitting for 170-250 in base, the return is laughable. 10 pieces of gear gives maybe 10% raw damage increase, (increasing crit rate from gear will increase the actual damage done somewhat).
    The one complaint I don't have here are finishers. These have good energy costs (if used at 5 points) and good return from AP; I've not done any math on it, but finishers from being nude hit quite low.

    If you don't believe me how little role AP plays for us, feel free to try it out and prove me wrong.

    The actual gain here, I think is also higher due to damage% increase from soul points. As a rogue however, you're quite lucky to scavenge up 40-50%. This pretty much barely covers, and exceeds the gap between 1 sec GC and 1.5 sec GC.
    Pretty much every Warrior and Mage DPS soul gain something out of putting lots of points in it. No rogue soul - bar the ranger pet! - gains something a kin to this. On top of this, they don't have to struggle to compensate for the fictional 1 second GC.

    4. Melee Unfriendliness.
    This is apparently being addressed. While currently, my top damage soul is a melee soul, I just lack the hit points/AC/resists to survive some encounters due to their unpredictable point blank AoE's. Our bigger brother, the DPS warrior, has more of both of hit points and AC, meaning it's a lesser issue.
    Perhaps our melee souls could use something a kin to the pet AoE damage resistance when going deeply into a melee tree.

    In Closing a few suggestions;
    What I feel that needs to be addressed is the fact that we're not really a 1 second global cooldown class, but we're being penalized for being it.
    You could make energy recover faster by having high strength/dexterity; much like how the endless mana mage/cleric works for stacking up int/wisdom.
    We could gain more benefits from actually going deep into a tree. Like all Assassin powers are increased by 1% for each soul point spent in them, perhaps at a cap at 30 to not make anything but a 51 point a waste.
    Fix so that we're doing something constantly. Change Weapon Enchants to only trigger on auto attacks but do significant damage, with either a proc rate per minute instead of %, so you don't get penalized for not using 2 daggers, or normalize it and make it 100% proc rate. It would mean that Assassin or Nightblade would be required, so perhaps adding a few more weapon enchants to other souls would be needed. Perhaps two different, one pure damage, and one supportive that supplies some sort of buff or debuff that works like it currently does.

    The rogue is a very fun class to play. Many of the souls have nice interactivity and scales nicely with player performance. It's just sad that it doesn't scale with in game mechanics beyond weapons.

    That was a bit longer than I expected! ;p

  2. #2
    Shadowlander
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    +10,
    You sir, make a lot of sense.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker malic3k's Avatar
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    Another +10 internets from me! Good post!
    | AMD Phenom II 1090T @ 4.08ghz || ASUS M4A87TD EVO AM3 MoBo || 8gb OCZ Ribjaw DDR3 1600 || Sapphire HD6870 || 2x 500gb WD Sata HDD |

  4. #4
    Rift Chaser
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    Great post. I agree with you, im just too lazy to do a fancy wall of text like that

  5. #5
    Telaran Wolfe's Avatar
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    Yep I totally agree!
    True mastery is to feel the flames of your passion, to dance with the fire, to live in it, to fully embrace the primal forces of destruction and creation, and not be burned to a cinder, to survive and prosper because you loved the flame, used the flame, but did not allow yourself to be consumed by it.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple Mungan's Avatar
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    agreed rouge soul needs some rebound

  7. #7
    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mungan View Post
    agreed rouge soul needs some rebound
    rogue too :-p
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  8. #8
    Banned
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    It would basically be a miracle if Rogues had something changed that would allow them to replenish energy quicker. This just wont happen so the entire class is doomed to be energy starved like a crack head on withdrawl.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    Being a warrior I actually sympathize with the rogue issue at hand I think it is a problem that has been present since the energy fix on rogues back in alpha. In "early" alpha rogues had a very high energy regen BUT it did not tick during the global cooldown so either the souls had to have some energy regen talents (lots of them were around then) or wait for 0,5s before firing off the next ability to replenish some energy. When they rebalanced stuff to allow rogues to have a constant energy regen, it seems things got a bit unbalanced. It wasn't a big issue as rogues did have significant autoattack dps, but then they nerfed the autoattack making the 1s cooldown balance around rogue dps an even more significant drawback as virtually nothing gets done that scales with gear during the pause for energy that happens once you get drained.

    That said I think energy should be something you need to conserve for bursts or fancy high damage attacks but with most if not all abilities on the same energy cost that isn't really the case. So dont just lower the costs over the board for all rogues, instead add some variation where costs actually represents what attacks do so you cant always spam the "best" ones in a macro.
    23 - 23 = 5 - 5 ---> 23 ( 1 - 1) = 5 ( 1 - 1) ---> 23 = 5 Q.E.D.
    allisti

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    To continue spinning.

    Cleric/mages do not use weapons. They instead get spell power from their weapon. Spell power is twice as effective as attack power.

    A T2 geared mage/cleric should have around 900 SP. On a two second spell, this means +180 damage.
    A T2 geared rogue should have around 450 AP if they've focused on it. On a 40 energy power (which takes 2 seconds to recover from, if the fight has been going on for 6+ seconds) this means +45 damage. If it adds +50% AP, it deals nearly +70 damage.
    On top of that though, we have our weapons. A T2 weapon alone adds about 100 damage I would say to each ability, along with the +80 or so mod, that would bring this up to 250 hits, multiplied with %'al mods from soul points, and taking resists into account, around 270-300 is what I see on dummies.
    Now, we can sort of burst these initially.

    Without factoring in %'al spell mods (Pyromancer have it for example, that I can think of at a straight arm, but most mage souls do too), the base damage of a 2 second spell + 180 is way above the near 300 we see on our "2 sec abilities". You can factor in channeling, but there's also 27 meters range and what not.

    What you're seeing when poping Ebon Fury and spamming Dusk Strike is pretty much what every mana class is capable of doing from the start to end. We do have rather nice combination for it though, so with the right setup, Ebon Fury DPS is through the roof - but perhaps on par with the new Mage bursts as well, I don't have sufficient details to make such a bold claim.

    When you start scaling gear even more, the difference will be extreme. Mage/Cleric actually scales well with their gear - they gain more mana, more regeneration and more SP. Rogue only scales with their weapon, and slightly slightly slightly with gear, or rather AP does.
    T3 geared mages should further jump the gap and so on, unless weapon really starts scaling.

    My opinion on the matter is that the Cleric/Mage scaling is awesome. You gain more than a 10% base boost from having full epic gear. Ask a bard to heal nude and you wont really tell the difference. Ask a Cleric to do the same, and have fun recovering.

    We then move on to weapons.
    Weapons are normalized.
    Procs are based on %'s.
    This means a dagger will proc 33% more than an axe on auto attacks. It means a dagger will crit 33% more, and thus proc crit dependent things 33% more often from auto attacks.
    Using any other (one-handed) weapon than daggers is just mathematically unsound - this goes for rogues and warriors alike.

    So. Remove DPS from weapons. Give us a huge chunk of attack power instead on weapons. If you really want auto attack to still be in the game, have the weapons have some auto-attack range, otherwise remove that too (but adjust things dependent on it) since it's pretty much useless now.

    Factor in that we're actually one of the few classes without and endless resource at 50. Lower endurance cost, and perhaps damage return on our spam attacks, perhaps to sub-20, so we can always do something (but they should obviously have lowered damage). Fix our 40 energy costs to either do damage at least nearly equal to a 2 second channel spell or cut their costs.

    In short, make us scale with our gear, not just our weapons. Take into account, that in any extended fight, our 1 sec GC is currently a penalty due to constant energy starvation. It shouldn't be all to hard to fix these fundamental issues rather than trying just to make individual adjustments here and there.

  11. #11
    Shadowlander nikareijii's Avatar
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    Perfect post.
    We must form a petition from rogues, full of love to trion and a pain from our characters.

    Anyway, i agree with TS. It is a nice solutiotion.

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