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Thread: To all those who think Riftstalker is broken and/or weak

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    Shadowlander
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    Default To all those who think Riftstalker is broken and/or weak

    I must say, I'm amazed at how often people complain in this forum about rogue tanks not having adequate avoidance or scatter the shadows being worthless or any number of other complaints I've seen.

    First of all, a little backstory on me: I am currently the Main Tank in <Fallen>, the 26th most progressed guild in the world. We recently downed Oracle Aleria, and are currently working on Prince Hylas (wow a lot of healers needed for that fight heh.).

    I see no problem with the competitiveness of rogue tanks in the games current state. We have higher mitigation than any other tank unless you count cleric's bubbles, which are not up 100%. We certainly lack avoidance, but we also have higher EH than any other tank currently.

    I have heard people complain that rogue tanks mitigation is not enough to consistently tank T2 content, let alone raids. This is patently untrue. Sure on the harder pulls you should pop Planar Refuge before going in, but thats just using your abilities. If you know how to stack your finishers correctly, your damage should be high for ~5s, and Planar Refuge covers that so there's no real gap. I have tanked all T1s and all T2s with the exception of DD (just haven't gotten a group for it yet), as well as Duke, Infiltrator, Oracles ranged wolf, Prince Hylas, and all the mini-bosses Prince Hylas spawns.

    Every healer I've asked has said that rogue tanks are easier to heal than equivalently geared warrior tanks, and cleric tanks have so little snap aggro that you have to give them a large window for threat and even then you can pull off of them.

    The only problem rogue tanks have right now is that a lot of the people playing them (or wanting to play them) don't know how to use them correctly.

    And bugs. I would love it if Defer Death / Scatter the Shadows worked right now, hopefully that gets fixed soon. I would also love it if my plane shifts always shifted me, since they fixed the through the world glitch, sometimes it just doesn't take me anywhere now.

    -Phate

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    I would like to see slight rework of defer death. Its great ability, but it would be better if the damge wouldnt go all at once, but rather separately in next 10 sec. after it ends. Or second option count overheals and reduce its dmg by it. Atm its too risky to use.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    I have two real complaints about rogue tanking.

    #1: Itemization. There seems to be crappy itemization for rogue tanks. Where are all the lesser planar focus with Stam/Dex/Parry/Dodge? Where is the greater planar focus equivalent of the "heal on block" family? Why does it seem like there is a ton more Plate tanking drops than Leather or Mail?

    We need to have enough availible gear that focuses on Endurence, Dex, Parry, and Dodge, as well as trinkets and greater planar essences that are tailor built to our taking style (the same that warriors have ones built to theirs).


    #2: The first 5 seconds of a pull.

    You lack Rift Shield.
    You lack 6% damage reduction from Phantom Blow.
    You lack 40% armor from Guarded Steel.

    Before you have your shield and +40% armor buff up it seems like we're very vulnerable, something that the other two tanking classes don't have to deal with. You can pop your -30% damage cooldown on pull, but it seems silly to have to be forced into that every single dangerous pull. A change I'd like to see is for Phantom Blow to reduce damage by 6% and not stack. The only thing this would change would be letting you get to your normal damage reduction 2 seconds earlier in the pull. The other simple fix is to change Planar Switch (our 31 point ability) so that it also grants 2 combo points to the target. Increase the energy cost from 25 to 40 or 50 to compensate so that it isn't used purely for in-combat combo point generation.

    This would let you use it on a target from 30 yards away before you even pull, and then put up a Rift Guard before you aggro them. The first two seconds of the fight you could hit a Phantom Blow and then Guarded Steel. This would get you setup more quickly so that you wouldn't have the big issues early in the fight and wouldn't be forced to blow your cooldown at the very start of every single challenging pull.

    Outside of that, the Defer Death -> Scatter to the Shadows bug really needs to be fixed.

  4. #4
    Telaran Waananii's Avatar
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    So TL;DR, Rogue tanks are a lot like the WoW DK tank, in that its mostly idiots attempting to play them, but really they are some of the best tanks out?
    Quote Originally Posted by Xetal View Post
    #2: The first 5 seconds of a pull.

    You lack Rift Shield.
    You lack 6% damage reduction from Phantom Blow.
    You lack 40% armor from Guarded Steel.
    Plane Shift into battle, so use the TP into, then when that drops use another Plane Shift ability, you should then have the rest of your defensive abilities ready.
    Last edited by Waananii; 03-25-2011 at 09:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archaell View Post
    I would like to see slight rework of defer death. Its great ability, but it would be better if the damge wouldnt go all at once, but rather separately in next 10 sec. after it ends. Or second option count overheals and reduce its dmg by it. Atm its too risky to use.
    This is one of the problems I'm talking about, people don't see the obvious synergies at play here. Defer Death is so blatantly obviously meant to be paired with Scatter the Shadows that it surprises me that people don't see that. When it isn't bugged, you would pop defer death, then Scatter the Shadows aproximately 9-9.5 seconds later, to provide you with ~11.5 seconds of pure immunity. Amazing tank cooldown in theory, but its bugged right now.

    Xetal:

    In regards to #1, I agree, the current itemization for rogue tanks is crap, but this has nothing to do with the class, only that the devs haven't deemed fit to give us great gear. Though I have to say, I have run into quite a few dex-prone tank items in Greenscale. The Tier 2 is crap for us, but thats the same for everyone.

    In regards to #2, I have to wholehartedly disagree. Yes we are weak in the beginning of the fight, but thats not a problem to be fixed, thats an inherent mechanic of our class. And why shouldn't you use a 1min cooldown for every hard pull in a dungeon? its a one minute cooldown, it will be up in time for you to use it again, and for a true DR 30% is somewhat lackluster. And while you lack Rift *Guard*, you do have Rift Barrier, which serves as a cushion until you get rift guard up. This mentality of "save the cooldown" can cause big problems in higher end raiding. Sure you shouldn't pop it when you're at 80% hp in the middle of a pull, but if it could help you, pop it! It is one minute for god sakes, it will be back up before you know it, and you still have Side Steps in the meantime.

    Changing phantom blow from a stacking buff to a flat 6% would just further dumb down the class. Sure there's 2 seconds where you dont have the full 6%, but again, this is something I actually like. I don't know about you, but by FAR the most important mitigation skill I use is Rift Guard. Once its up my damage is cut nearly in half. while Phantom Blow is certainly important to get up, it is not going to make or break the fight. Most fights I spam 5 PS to get threat before I even start weaving in my PB, and even then its not 3 in a row. Getting Rift Guard up is crucial, but with Planar Refuge and Rift Barrier, you have more than enough absorption to survive it, and thats also why Shadow Blitz gives you a combo point, to get that little lead you need.


    I for one love the Riftstalker, and I would hate to see all these crybabies on the forums cause Trion to homogenize this class just like Blizzard did with every class in WoW. The Riftstalker has things its good at, and things its not good at. That is inherently good. I would rather play a class that has personality than play some boring homogenized tank class. I played Riftstalker in Beta 7 and just fell in love. Their playstyle is very unique, and requires you to pay attention to play it. This is not your normal tank where you can faceroll 4 threat skills and be fine. You have to actually manage your finishers, stay mobile with plane shifts, and continue to build threat inside that. I love a class that, as Waananii said, like the Death Knight in WoW. Lots of idiots want to play, but because the class has some personality, any idiot cant just faceroll and play it, you have to actually pay attention and know what you're doing. That is what truly makes it fun to play for me. And the best thing about it is it isn't just hard for no reason, by learning how to play it and doing it well, you have the potential to become one of the best tanks in the game.

    -Phate

    P.S. I'm amazed that I didn't get a slew of "wtf dude riftstalker is so broken waaa" posts, people seem generally intelligent so far.

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    I just have one question about Rogue tanking really.

    I've tanked all the T1s with literally no agro problems at all unless my Chloro healer was forced to essence surge, his AoE taunt ability.

    I get to T2s and I have all purple armor gear but still have some low end weapons that do about 23.3 DPS and I have some trouble keeping agro and I tell people to wait about 5 seconds and sometimes I still have a bit of trouble depending on what's going on.

    I'm curious to know if it's the weapons being kinda low end for T2s that's my problem. I spam Rift disturbance as much as I can and I use shadow blitz first (at least if it's safe). The only thing I could think of was the weapons really.

  7. #7
    lud
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    What is your spec?
    What 1min cooldown? my ones are 2min cooldowns.

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    Plane Walker
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    With 130 toughness I cannot tank T2

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    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d4bidden View Post
    With 130 toughness I cannot tank T2
    Weird, because that 30 extra toughness does nothing.

    I've tanked everything in T2 we've attempted, and I currently sit at 101 toughness. I just recently bought the T2 chest so I could drop the toughness enchant (previously was using Wayward), and pick up a different enchant its place until we start doing tougher content.

    Don't forget to support Dual Targeting in SWTOR and Prime Online.
    We didn't get it here, but perhaps we can help make the next games into what they should be.

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    These are the problems I have so far after having just finished T2.

    1. The Riftstalker tree is too good compared to the other trees. The bonuses from Improved Rift Guard and Improved Guardian Phase are too amazing to pass up. Sinking as many points as you can into the tree simply blows any other choice out of the water. And therein lies the problem. We hardly have any choices when speccing the class. Currently the only choice we have is to go Bard or Ranger for our third tree. There needs to be something in the other trees that can compete with putting 51 into Riftstalker.

    2. Watch the UI, not the game. This is more of a general complaint with the game than the class but why do I have to monitor four different timed buffs on myself? The "buffs" area of the UI is already cluttered enough as it is with useless garbage (lol track mines is a buff?) that I don't want to have to skim it every 15-20 seconds to see which finisher I need to use. There needs to be some kind of synergy or special attack or something to refresh the buffs. Keeping them up is skill-less, tedious, and boring. I'd like to suggest tying them in somehow to maybe the blink attacks or something but then what else would we do during fights? Which leads me to my next point...

    3. The class is dull. When I first looked at the tree I envisioned myself blinking around the battle field placing well-timed strikes and whatnot, but what I'm left with is the following rotation:
    111123
    111124
    111125
    repeat.
    That's the ENTIRE rotation. (I bet the people who play this class can tell me exactly what each of those buttons refers to.) It is so simplistic and easy and dull. We need more interesting attacks. Four out of every five combo points for each finisher (all THREE of them) should not come from one attack. Following up to what I ended point two with though, what else would we do? We need these three dull finishers and one combo point builder because what else would we do? We have nothing else to do; other then maybe blink around the battlefield needlessly just for fun.

    4. Defer death. This skill is utterly useless. Almost suspiciously so... I can't even think of one time that it would have helped anything. Not one. I want to say that Scatter the Shadows is bugged right now and the two should work together, but let's be honest, that'd be too strong. Which leaves me wondering what the purpose of this skill is. Needs to be changed or removed, it's just plain useless. Maybe make it disperse the damage evenly to everyone in your group?

    5. The build-up time at the start of a fight. This is a minor complaint. Since I know all of the T2 fights now I know that I can just use a cooldown at the start of the fight to assist with this and it'll be up again when needed but as someone else said, why should I have to? My suggestion for this would be to change Planar Switch (another suspiciously useless skill) to instead add five combo points to your current target. Again, a minor complaint, but something that should be looked at down the line.

    The next ones are general complaints about the game but that are still connected to the role.

    6. Hit/toughness. First off, why am I still missing with maxed hit? Scratch that, I have a better question, why do I even need to get +hit on my gear? Isn't getting toughness enough? Healers don't have to get anything, yet I need two stats? Can't you just have a talent that converts toughness into hit for tanks? Tanks are already the most difficult classes to gear, basically gating the rest of your group from progressing with the laughably ridiculous nature of toughness itemization. This is just one of those "how could they miss that during the design, testing, and feedback (and oh was feedback given in alpha and beta on this topic)" stages thing.

    Regarding toughness, why wasn't this spread out on more gear? Itemization would have been SO much more interesting with toughness being spread over all pieces of gear. The fact that an encounter can go from almost impossible to almost trivial with a -single- piece of gear is stupid. Getting new gear with more incremental increases in toughness would be so much more fun. To give you an idea, how exciting would it be to only have dodge on four pieces of armor but bump the amount up to 100 or so?! Yeah.. not very.

    7. Taunts "delay". I've talked with a LOT of other tanks on my server and they all confirm my suspicions that there is a weird delay when taunt hits the mob and it actually starts to attack you. A few times I've seen the debuff disappear completely before the mob finally turns and attacks me. (No, it wasn't finishing a spell.) At first I thought maybe I was lagging or something, but with 45ms ping and having so many other people confirm this I think there's a bug here.

    Just to address some things that other people said,

    And why shouldn't you use a 1min cooldown for every hard pull in a dungeon? its a one minute cooldown, it will be up in time for you to use it again, and for a true DR 30% is somewhat lackluster.
    What ability are you referring to with this? I can only think of Planar Refuge, but that's a two minute cooldown.

    I for one love the Riftstalker, and I would hate to see all these crybabies on the forums cause Trion to homogenize this class just like Blizzard did with every class in WoW. The Riftstalker has things its good at, and things its not good at. That is inherently good. I would rather play a class that has personality than play some boring homogenized tank class. I played Riftstalker in Beta 7 and just fell in love. Their playstyle is very unique, and requires you to pay attention to play it.
    Personally I would say this class is a "boring" "homogenized" class in it's current state. (111123...) Yeah you have to pay attention, but to the UI and buffs, not to the game area itself. I do agree with you that it's nice having a tank class that has its pros and cons though. That is something they did very well with the tank classes in Rift. They can't all do everything.

    All that being said, I'm having fun. I have a sneaking suspicion that it has more to do with the content than the class, but whatever. The class is close to being a really fun and neat tank, but it definitely needs some tweaking.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWeirdOne View Post
    I just have one question about Rogue tanking really.

    I've tanked all the T1s with literally no agro problems at all unless my Chloro healer was forced to essence surge, his AoE taunt ability.

    I get to T2s and I have all purple armor gear but still have some low end weapons that do about 23.3 DPS and I have some trouble keeping agro and I tell people to wait about 5 seconds and sometimes I still have a bit of trouble depending on what's going on.

    I'm curious to know if it's the weapons being kinda low end for T2s that's my problem. I spam Rift disturbance as much as I can and I use shadow blitz first (at least if it's safe). The only thing I could think of was the weapons really.
    I'm guessing you're not hit capped. I tanked 4/5 T2 with a blue 21 DPS weapon and a green 20 DPS weapon before finally getting the crafted mace (ironically the proc doesn't even work) so I don't think it's a DPS problem for you. Missing a few Planar Strikes in a row can really suck for building threat.
    Last edited by Mallard; 03-26-2011 at 12:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mallard View Post
    I'm guessing you're not hit capped. I tanked 4/5 T2 with a blue 21 DPS weapon and a green 20 DPS weapon before finally getting the crafted mace (ironically the proc doesn't even work) so I don't think it's a DPS problem for you. Missing a few Planar Strikes in a row can really suck for building threat.
    I have no issues at all with Single Target threat but with AoE threat really.

    Even then they seem to be minimal to be completely honest and I have 106 hit so I don't think it's hit capped really.

    I just noticed this never happened before in T1s after I got better weapons. When I was losing agro in T1s I got new weapons and viola no more agro issues, so I assumed this was the same for T2s.
    Last edited by TheWeirdOne; 03-26-2011 at 12:55 AM.

  13. #13
    Plane Walker
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    rogue tank might not be a bad tank. but its just very hard to learn. those who are thinking about switching to it and the step to becomming actually good at it is pretty big. i'm currently on that phase. i'm trying to lear tanking with it but i'm having a hard time in seeing how to pull getting aoe up as packs are not single target getting my skills up.

    tbh from what i feel we have to many finishers we need to get up there and that downtime we need to use a cd. and the expectation is that you already have the gear. but ye getting that gear is also an issue as it just won't drop.

    my main is dps rogue but i want to be able to tank if we miss a tank that i can help out. currently its just plain insanity getting a decent tanking set.

  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
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    Defer Death has only been useful to me a couple of times. One thing to note is that you can cancel the buff at any time and receive the damage you have taken until that point instead of letting it go for the full duration.

    Problem is timing that effectively, I suggest creating a macro for "cancelbuff Defer Death", though I haven't even done that myself I just click it off in the buff bar. I think I may actually look into the macro solution next time I log in, though.

    Don't forget to support Dual Targeting in SWTOR and Prime Online.
    We didn't get it here, but perhaps we can help make the next games into what they should be.

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    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bahizret View Post
    rogue tank might not be a bad tank. but its just very hard to learn. those who are thinking about switching to it and the step to becomming actually good at it is pretty big. i'm currently on that phase. i'm trying to lear tanking with it but i'm having a hard time in seeing how to pull getting aoe up as packs are not single target getting my skills up.

    tbh from what i feel we have to many finishers we need to get up there and that downtime we need to use a cd. and the expectation is that you already have the gear. but ye getting that gear is also an issue as it just won't drop.

    my main is dps rogue but i want to be able to tank if we miss a tank that i can help out. currently its just plain insanity getting a decent tanking set.
    I have one dropped piece, and it isn't even used right now. Everything else has been bought with plaques, crafted, or is part of my DPS set but just has decent stats overall (Cover of Night, for example). Hopefully the next patch's "100+ new items" features some gear for us.

    I started off as DPS/Bard, and then became a tank once I purchased the T1 Shoulders and Boots (50 toughness from these two alone), and then grabbed the Wayward Brigandine (Crafted, Icewatch Rep) and Steeled Leather Leggings (Crafted, Artisan Marks). Wayward with +15 Toughness Rune and the rest of those pieces is enough to hit 100 toughness for T2's.

    I just recently bought the T2 Tank Chest (Auxila's Brigandine), to get enough toughness without the enchant to pick up the +8 endurance enchant on it.

    If you can't get in as a DPS/Bard to grab some plaques before hand, go for the Wayward Brigandine and Steeled Leggings, with a +15 toughness enchant and the leggings you should have 53 toughness overall, which is enough to do T1's safely (50 is the cap for them).
    Last edited by StealthStalker; 03-26-2011 at 01:15 AM.

    Don't forget to support Dual Targeting in SWTOR and Prime Online.
    We didn't get it here, but perhaps we can help make the next games into what they should be.

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