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Thread: The needed Saboteur change that was overlooked

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default The needed Saboteur change that was overlooked

    In all the furor about Sab DPS changes, one of the biggest problems with the class has been overlooked.

    The fact that sab charges do not break CC on application is the biggest loophole which enables overpowered PvP burst damage rotations. For a sab (w/ Nightblade splash) to incapacitate from range, and have free reign to open the fight with a 2k+ damage ability, followed by a mez + repeat of above is out of line with most burst dps in the game. A well played sab can do over 5k damage without ever leaving themselves able to be attacked by the other player. Such a rotation doesn't even require the use of a long reuse cooldown ability. I doubt that Trion envisioned Saboteurs as being the ultimate stealth assassin with they were designing the rogue souls, but this has come to pass.

    Please, Trion, make Sab charges break CC on application. Hell, make em do minor damage when they hit. DPS increase for Sabs + balance increase for the rest of us = WIN.

  2. #2
    Shield of Telara
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    Explain why a non dmg ability should break CC again? This is not necessary. There are tons of abilities that break CC. If you chose not to spec them for PvP you are chosing to gimp yourself.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leorwen View Post
    I doubt that Trion envisioned Saboteurs as being the ultimate stealth assassin with they were designing the rogue souls, but this has come to pass.
    What else does a "Saboteur" do except quiet setup followed by destructive execution?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leorwen View Post
    In all the furor about Sab DPS changes, one of the biggest problems with the class has been overlooked.

    The fact that sab charges do not break CC on application is the biggest loophole which enables overpowered PvP burst damage rotations. For a sab (w/ Nightblade splash) to incapacitate from range, and have free reign to open the fight with a 2k+ damage ability, followed by a mez + repeat of above is out of line with most burst dps in the game. A well played sab can do over 5k damage without ever leaving themselves able to be attacked by the other player. Such a rotation doesn't even require the use of a long reuse cooldown ability. I doubt that Trion envisioned Saboteurs as being the ultimate stealth assassin with they were designing the rogue souls, but this has come to pass.

    Please, Trion, make Sab charges break CC on application. Hell, make em do minor damage when they hit. DPS increase for Sabs + balance increase for the rest of us = WIN.
    With the 1.1 nerf making charges do damage would be a huge hit to Sabs. Also with so many other souls running around with multiple CCs, I'm not sure the above scenario is going to rise to the top of class issues. Definitely need to wait and see. Also agree that most players need to spec a CC break.

  5. #5
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    Sabo-bard will become completely a non-issue with the changes.

    As it is, the only really viable controlling spec is 27sabo/34bard/5nb (sap is unnecessary, since sap and mez are on the same DR); this makes use of the current charge booster with 5 separate charge types (since 5x blast charge is simply sub-par damage).

    No other spec has as high damage potential while maintaining a perfect control lock; in this case, mez -> 5 charges -> timebomb -> (properly timed) anni bomb, to lock out potential lolINSTANTFULLHEAL -> detonate -> mez (now 4s, since 50% dr) -> 2-3x charge -> detonate, time bomb hits

    As you say, this does typically 5k damage.

    Since charge booster is being reworked into a rather terrible CD ability (considering its on a 1.5m cd), this literally halves the damage output for everything other than the first salvo assuming you actually have the new booster off cd and available for use (25% reduction from current).

    The fact that 5x blast charge will calculate each charge separately for crit is just another kick in the nuts to the spec; the only reason to use BC at the moment is because a 5x bc crit is somewhat higher than the typical 1x crit 4x noncrit from 5 different charge-boosted charges.

    Not to mention the fact that BC's armor pen bug is being fixed; so damage potential over the control-lock duration will be even lower.

    Basically, even if you have charge booster up, you probably won't be able to kill anyone other than a fresh 4k hp 50 during the duration of the lock. So the spec will basically become worthless, considering there are others that can hold their own far better in 1v1, and will actually provide value in team (wf) situations.

    (At the moment, sabo-bard has great team utility since it provides bard buffs, mezzes, and good damage with the ability to switch to healing on the fly; but post patch, you might as well just go straight bard or tankbard, since the damage will be so terrible).

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple
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    Could sabo-bard the reason for the charge booster change??

    I mean, it's kind of broken, but REALLY? If I want to DPS as a Sabo, there's no way I'm running as a Sabo-bard- there's way too many actual DPS boosts I can have to dump that many points in a bard.

    If that's the basis for the change, for chrissake, FIX THE COMBO, don't completely eviscerate the one viable DPS spec rogues had.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puckey View Post
    Could sabo-bard the reason for the charge booster change??
    I doubt (hope) it isn't; it seems more likely to me that the use of 1x each charge +1 from charge booster was unintended to be the highest dps (compared to, say, 5x blast). edit: the developers also seem more concerned with balancing pve over pvp, and I have a suspicion sabo wasn't meant to be a strong endgame-PVE class xD

    That said, the number of changes they made were completely overkill:

    -fixed armor pen bug on blast charge
    -redesigned charge booster
    -reduced range to 15(20 talented)
    -made blast charge calculate crit separately (so more consistent damage, but less consistent burst)

    Personally, I think it would be much better if they took the first three of those: arpen bug was a necessary fix; charge booster was a bit too strong (however, new charge booster really should have a 30s cooldown); 20m range since the huge value of sabo's (current) backloaded burst merits some sort of risk; and left blast charge as one crit calculation (sabo is supposed to be a burst class); AND, in addition, increased base charge damage by ~20% to make up for the fact that, without such a boost, sabo will be a mid-range class with sub-par damage.
    Last edited by Grebnev; 03-25-2011 at 01:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grebnev View Post
    I doubt (hope) it isn't; it seems more likely to me that the use of 1x each charge +1 from charge booster was unintended to be the highest dps (compared to, say, 5x blast). edit: the developers also seem more concerned with balancing pve over pvp

    That said, the number of changes they made were completely overkill:

    -fixed armor pen bug on blast charge
    -redesigned charge booster
    -reduced range to 15(20 talented)
    -made blast charge calculate crit separately (so more consistent damage, but less consistent burst)

    Personally, I think it would be much better if they took the first three of those: arpen bug was a necessary fix; charge booster was a bit too strong (however, new charge booster really should have a 30s cooldown); 20m range since the huge value of sabo's (current) backloaded burst merits some sort of risk; and left blast charge as one crit calculation (sabo is supposed to be a burst class); AND, in addition, increased base charge damage by ~20% to make up for the fact that, without such a boost, sabo will be a mid-range class with sub-par damage.
    I'm diametrically opposed to your idea of rebalancing the Sab class; There are vast side effects which make the changes to charge booster which completely gut our class; all of our charge "side-effects" were balanced around that talent. The individual crit chance was an absolutely necessary change; it evens out our damage, so we don't get those one-in-5 omglol crits on a full stack. Instead, usually one or two charges will crit.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puckey View Post
    all of our charge "side-effects" were balanced around that talent. The individual crit chance was an absolutely necessary change; it evens out our damage, so we don't get those one-in-5 omglol crits on a full stack. Instead, usually one or two charges will crit.
    I suspect (pure conjecture, nothing more) that the ability to apply 2-stack debuffs from the debuff charges was an unintended side effect of the 1x-each rotation being dominant; instead, the utility charges were probably intended to be stacked to 5x to provide the utility of the debuff in pve situations where your raid happens to lack a class that brings that particular debuff (don't forget, splinter/embers don't stack with the same type of debuff from other classes), and use of caltrop charge was intended to be a tactical decision as opposed to a useful side-effect of the dominant rotation.

    As for the omglol-crits: I feel the fact that you can, say 20% of the time, get the equivalent of 5 crits in a row vs. the new system's 1crit/4hits is an important attractor to the class; thats the kind of burst that can cause a significant impact on whether your target lives or dies (PVP-speaking, of course, since the dps is the same between the two models).

    Sure, the new model provides more consistency; but the previous model provides more [I]reliable[/] potential to shape the outcome of the fight. Consistency is too easily healed through in pvp; this is why people desire burst.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leorwen View Post
    In all the furor about Sab DPS changes, one of the biggest problems with the class has been overlooked.

    The fact that sab charges do not break CC on application is the biggest loophole which enables overpowered PvP burst damage rotations. For a sab (w/ Nightblade splash) to incapacitate from range, and have free reign to open the fight with a 2k+ damage ability, followed by a mez + repeat of above is out of line with most burst dps in the game. A well played sab can do over 5k damage without ever leaving themselves able to be attacked by the other player. Such a rotation doesn't even require the use of a long reuse cooldown ability. I doubt that Trion envisioned Saboteurs as being the ultimate stealth assassin with they were designing the rogue souls, but this has come to pass.

    Please, Trion, make Sab charges break CC on application. Hell, make em do minor damage when they hit. DPS increase for Sabs + balance increase for the rest of us = WIN.
    You don't see that all of the other changes are pretty harsh? Do you want the entire class completely stupid, or just all of the parts that someone killed you from?
    Last edited by Humble; 03-25-2011 at 01:33 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grebnev View Post
    Sabo-bard will become completely a non-issue with the changes.

    As it is, the only really viable controlling spec is 27sabo/34bard/5nb (sap is unnecessary, since sap and mez are on the same DR); this makes use of the current charge booster with 5 separate charge types (since 5x blast charge is simply sub-par damage).

    No other spec has as high damage potential while maintaining a perfect control lock
    I guess you didnt play sab | nb | assassin.

    incapacitate -> 5x charges -> annihilate bomb -> 1 charge -> detonate -> confusing powder -> 5x charges -> detonate

  12. #12
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    Funny, because to me, the opportunity cost of using the side-effect charges without a double-up effect or at least a 3-for-2 effect is pretty much a non-starter. And really- am I going to spend my time stacking up stun charges @ 2 seconds/charge - when it will take me 1.5 seconds of energy to throw that charge? Or snare charges? A 4 second stun mixed in to our stack makes sense, but if you compare any of the side effects raw without charge booster, they're a waste to use.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ururu View Post
    I guess you didnt play sab | nb | assassin.

    incapacitate -> 5x charges -> annihilate bomb -> 1 charge -> detonate -> confusing powder -> 5x charges -> detonate
    Problem with that is if the player is any good and that first deto doesnt wreck him he had as good a chance of killing you as you did him. only bad players were losing to sabo's that weren't just 1 shotting them.
    Last edited by BlackZilla; 03-25-2011 at 01:48 PM.

  14. #14
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    I also got the feeling the OP has never played a sab / fully understands how big of a nerf the coming changes are xD

    Quote Originally Posted by Grebnev View Post
    As for the omglol-crits...
    Just to further iterate on my point above, the individual crit chance model has no impact on pve dps; only pvp. So its a comparison between:

    the current system of either getting (a) small burst (no crit) or (b) very large burst (equiv. of 5x crit),
    vs.
    the new system of most consistently getting burst only slightly higher than that of (a), 1x crit 4x hit, with the potential to get up to 5xcrit, but at a far, far less likely probability as (b).

    In a fight with no healers (aka 1v1), it doesn't make a large difference what model is in use, though the new model will provide more consistent wins.
    In a fight with healers (aka warfronts), lower burst is simply healed more easily than higher burst; and in team battles, it is important to take out critical targets (like healers) asap; so something which is harder to heal through is more desirable (especially in the post-patch world, where we won't have the luxury of 100% arpen champs helping on the assist train; so healing will be significantly more difficult to burn through).

    Hence why higher burst is more valuable: even if the current model provides most consistently a damage value which is less than that of the new model, the fact that it has a higher probability of getting the 5x-valued crit simply means it is more likely to provide a just-big-enough finishing (or near-finishing) blow to targets receiving healing.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puckey View Post
    Funny, because to me, the opportunity cost of using the side-effect charges without a double-up effect or at least a 3-for-2 effect is pretty much a non-starter. And really- am I going to spend my time stacking up stun charges @ 2 seconds/charge - when it will take me 1.5 seconds of energy to throw that charge? Or snare charges? A 4 second stun mixed in to our stack makes sense, but if you compare any of the side effects raw without charge booster, they're a waste to use.
    Stacking 5x splinter or ember is almost certainly a dps upgrade for a raid that doesn't have anyone else to provide those buffs, which is why I imagine this was the intended purpose for those charges (again, pure conjecture).

    Caltrop is still a worthwhile charge, presuming you want your target snared, since it does do decent damage (the same as splinter/ember).

    Stun charge is pretty useless without a free boost, I agree... but I never really used it to begin with :/
    not to mention, is it on the same DR as anni bomb?

    Quote Originally Posted by ururu View Post
    I guess you didnt play sab | nb | assassin.

    incapacitate -> 5x charges -> annihilate bomb -> 1 charge -> detonate -> confusing powder -> 5x charges -> detonate
    I tried this type of build, but from what I recall (I may have done something wrong) it didn't do as much damage due to the lack of anthem of fervor; you simply don't have the energy to stack enough charges before the blind (only 1s longer than mez, since its -50% duration from DR) wears off (certainly not enough for a second round of 5x charges).

    It also can't abuse the control-lock gimmick nearly as much since blind is on a 1m cd; bard can do it back to back (eg in warfronts, 1v2+ world pvp). Speaking of which, proper usage of the AE mez can often turn a 1v2 into a 1v1 @_@

    That said, I could be wrong and it might do more damage since it has much stronger passive talents, which could outweigh the bard buffs / additional charges.

    edit: and im not inclined to go out and test it now since I know, soon, any potential happiness will be shattered ;_;
    Last edited by Grebnev; 03-25-2011 at 02:07 PM.

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