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Thread: Trion, please explain the Saboteur changes. (Detailed analysis inside.)

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    Plane Walker Villainelle's Avatar
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    Default Trion, please explain the Saboteur changes. (Detailed analysis inside.)

    A quote from Gersh, Trion dev:

    Saboteurs will also be getting some tweaks, we want to keep the tic.tictic.. BOOM game play that makes the saboteur so interesting and exciting, but there were definitely combinations of talents and abilities that were taking things a bit too far.
    Rift 1.1 Patch Notes
    SABOTEUR
    • Undetonated Spike Charge and Blast Charge will not cause stealth to break when the charges expire.
    • CLARIFICATION EDIT: * Shrapnel Charge: Fixed a bug where Shrapnel Charge would not fire if the main target was killed by the initial Detonate damage.
    • Reduced the range of all Bombs and Charges to 15 meters, down from 20 meters.
    • Reduced the range of Detonate to 15 meters, down from 20 meters.
    • Long Range Bombing: Now increases the range you can hurl Bombs by 1-5 meters, down from 2-10 meters.
    • Remote Clipping: Now increases the range of your Charges and Detonates by 1-5 meters, down from 2-10 meters.
    • The outcome and damage of each charge is now calculated individually. When you detonate 5 Blast Charges, you will see 5 damage numbers, each with its own chance to critically hit, rather than one large number.
    • Improved Blast Charge: Fixed a bug where the armor penetration provided was higher than 25-50%.
    • Charge Booster: Redesigned to an active ability rather than a passive. When activated, the damage of your Charges is increased by 50% when detonated. This ability does not trigger global cooldown and is on a 1.5 minute cooldown.
    ----------

    FIXES

    Changes in GREEN are actual fixes, which are welcome. They primarily affect the insane burst numbers we were seeing in PVP against players, which is what all the complaining was about. Blast Charge in particular was the problem: bugged armor penetration + one roll to crit all charges = burst damage you cannot react to.

    With these fixes, Saboteur is brought back in line with other high-damage burst souls. Good job fixing bugs. We hope to see similar bugs fixed with ALL souls.

    ----------

    QUESTIONABLE CHANGES

    Changes in ORANGE are questionable. These changes are NOT part of the perceived "overpoweredness" of Saboteur, and in fact exaggerate what was already one of Saboteur's weaknesses: its requirement to be 20 meters from the target (30 with talents). This change only affects PVP.

    Trion: why the range nerf? Where are the complaints that Saboteurs have too much range? I read the forums daily and see plenty of complaining about Sabs, but 99% of it has to do with the fact that Sabs do all their damage in one burst that cannot be reacted to.

    This is clearly a PVP-oriented change, as it does not affect Saboteur PVE. What was it about Sab's range that you felt was too powerful in PVP? Why do you feel this is warranted in conjunction with the other changes you're simultaneously making to the soul?

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    NERFS

    The change in RED completely guts Saboteur as a useful class in PVE and PVP. Here is what Charge Booster currently does:
    Charge Booster: The power of each stack of Charges attached to the target is increased by 1 when they are Detonated.
    This talent adds 1 bonus charge for each unique type of charge on a target. This means that if you stack 5 Blast Charges on a target, it will effectively count as 6. However, if you lay 5 different charges on a target (typically Blast, Shrapnel, Embers, Caltrop, Splinter), you're effectively stacking 10 charges.

    The charge types aside from Blast do considerably less damage, but add a debuff (bleed, armor reduction, snare, etc.).

    In PVP, this makes for more predictable damage, along with a brief, minor debuff. In PVE, Charge Booster is a main component of Saboteur DPS and is what makes the rogue a competitive DPS calling compared to warriors, mages, and clerics.
    A standard PVE rotation for Sabs:

    1x Blast, 4x Spike, 1x Shrapnel > Detonate
    1x Blast, 1x Shrapnel, 1x Embers, 1x Caltrop, 1x Splinter > Detonate

    If the Sab adds melee autoattacks to the rotation, they are able to achieve 700-750 DPS unbuffed single-target, which puts them on par with most cleric and mage DPS builds, albeit still inferior to warrior.
    Notice how heavily this rotation relies upon Charge Booster. Your second rotation (while the Spike Charge dots are ticking) is utterly reliant upon Charge Booster doubling up the charges.
    What happens when you nerf Charge Booster? A Sab in full T2 gear drops down to 445 DPS single-target, as reported from the Alpha Test Shard.
    Take another look at that. A drop of 250+ DPS in one patch, and the change primarily affects PVE, not PVP. Was anyone complaining about Sabs in PVE?

    ----------

    SUMMARY: UNDO THE NERF TO CHARGE BOOSTER

    Trion, please reconsider the nerf to Charge Booster. You've addressed the main problem with Sabs in PVP: the insane burst that hits all at once and cannot be healed or reacted to. Forcing each charge to be individually calculated for a crit, along with the armor penetration bugfix, is really all that was needed to bring Sab in line.

    But you didn't stop there, and went on to nerf Sab range, and completely gutted Sab's PVE viability. Why did you swing the nerfbat so hard? It seems clear that you were primarily focused on PVP, as the majority of Sab changes aside from the Charge Booster nerf are only relevant to PVP.

    Perhaps you didn't realize how much you hurt Sab in PVE by gutting Charge Booster. Please read our parses, our detailed threads with suggestions, and at least reconsider the Charge Booster change.

    Thank you.

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    Villainelle
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    Plane Walker Drekor's Avatar
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    Just to add the change to charge booster now allows a sab in pvp to guarantee +50% damage on a 5x blast detonate in addition to having a chance to crit. This will overall improve the burst capability of sabs in pvp. Which was the #1 complaint about them by far. Just playing with some numbers it will technically be possible for sabs to instantly do 10k damage(before mitigation).

    Charge booster change is just plain stupid. Completely OP for PvP and a Massive nerf into uselessness for PvE.
    Last edited by Drekor; 03-25-2011 at 10:37 AM.

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    Shield of Telara Cabreon's Avatar
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    hmmm well QQ to you too 1800 dps to 1366 dps isnt that bad of a drop considering that most other soul's dps classes do considerably less including your own classes like nightstalker and ranger. I have seen too many of you sabs complaining about the changes. Most of the rogues in my guild said they needed a little less damage. you can't expect trion to over look 7k crits with detonate. Perhaps you should try a different rotation and see if that works for you.

    I will agree your analysis is well thought out but your numbers seem to be less than most the rogues I have parsed in t2 dungeons and in GSB.
    Last edited by Cabreon; 03-25-2011 at 10:39 AM.

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    Plane Walker Villainelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drekor View Post
    Just to add the change to charge booster now allows a sab in pvp to guarantee +50% damage on a 5x blast detonate in addition to having a chance to crit. This will overall improve the burst capability of sabs in pvp.
    Yep. So we'll STILL see cries of "I got one-shotted by a Sab."
    Villainelle
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    Plane Walker Villainelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabreon View Post
    hmmm well QQ to you too 1800 dps to 1366 dps isnt that bad of a drop considering that most other soul's dps classes do considerably less including your own classes like nightstalker and ranger. I have seen too many of you sabs complaining about the changes. Most of the rogues in my guild said they needed a little less damage. you can't expect trion to over look 7k crits with detonate.
    No soul in the game does 1800 DPS on a single target. The closest right now is Beastmaster, which apparently tops out around 1400.

    Rogues have never broken into 4 digits on a single target.
    Last edited by Villainelle; 03-25-2011 at 10:38 AM.
    Villainelle
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    Nicely formatted. Pretty much sums up my thoughts, but I'll add a couple more bits:

    1. Sab was the Rogue calling's ONLY viable PVE sustained DPS. All other builds from rogue calling are at least ~100 DPS behind Sab. Rangers can only manage that due to getting > 100 DPS from their PET; all the other ranged DPS specs for rogues are woefully behind even that bar.

    2. Mages are being buffed, and warriors are receiving bugfixes, and nerfs to their levelling specs, but BUFFS to paragon. Warrior thread rolling yesterday, they're expecting paragon builds to go from ~700 DPS sustained to ~900 DPS sustained. This puts rogues DPS ~ 33% lower than warriors as well as significantly below mages.

    GIVE ROGUES SOME VIABLE PVE DPS.

    Additional suggestions:
    1. Reconsider nerfs to Warrior classes which weren't anywhere near the top of the problem before? (VK, Reaver)
    2. Take a look at VK mana-drain; it's not a staple ability in PvE, and it's far too easy for them to take out Clerics in PvP with it.
    Last edited by Puckey; 03-25-2011 at 10:40 AM.

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    Everybody is saboteur in pvp already. Its jolly fun when you get dotted up by 2-3 sabs and get instagibbed, while trying to get to them is pointless as they simply use their off-sab ability to go immune for 5 seconds or vanish.

    All I hope for is that the dmg done when applying charges is increased, and the giant uber burst is lowered. That way you deal the same dmg as sab (might even kill ppl earlier), but it is possible for others to heal your ***. That, and a reduced duration on those charges, I mean really.. a whole minute? You can spam everyone in the enemy group and then spam detonate one after another easily. Or heck, spam someone full with charges, die, resurrect, get to the enemy again and detonate. :|

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    Plane Walker Villainelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puckey View Post
    Nicely formatted. Pretty much sums up my thoughts, but I'll add a couple more bits:

    1. Sab was the Rogue calling's ONLY viable PVE sustained DPS. All other builds from rogue calling are at least ~100 DPS behind Sab. Rangers can only manage that due to getting > 100 DPS from their PET; all the other ranged DPS specs for rogues are woefully behind even that bar.

    2. Mages are being buffed, and warriors are receiving bugfixes, and nerfs to their levelling specs, but BUFFS to paragon. Warrior thread rolling yesterday, they're expecting paragon builds to go from ~700 DPS sustained to ~900 DPS sustained. This puts rogues DPS ~ 33% lower than warriors as well as significantly below mages.

    GIVE ROGUES SOME VIABLE PVE DPS.
    Great points. I hope these are implied from my post, but it's always good to spell them out.

    I have to wonder if Trion just didn't realize that they inadvertently made Sab the only viable PVE soul for rogues, and then didn't realize that by nerfing it in PVP, they're destroying it in PVE, too.
    Villainelle
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    Shield of Telara Cabreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villainelle View Post
    No soul in the game does 1800 DPS on a single target. The closest right now is Beastmaster, which apparently tops out around 1400.

    Rogues have never broken into 4 digits on a single target.
    Go to Dimroot shard (defiant) and ask a rogue Name Mek how his dps stacks or even group with him and watch your own parser on the dummies in Meridian.

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    Plane Walker Drekor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabreon View Post
    you can't expect trion to over look 7k crits with detonate. Perhaps you should try a different rotation and see if that works for you.
    Not only did Trion overlook 7k crits they BUFFED them. What they nerfed was our sustained DPS which never EVER would get to a 7k crit as it's not using 5x blast.

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    Plane Walker Villainelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabreon View Post
    Go to Dimroot shard (defiant) and ask a rogue Name Mek how his dps stacks or even group with him and watch your own parser on the dummies in Meridian.
    Thanks, but there's no need. I've parsed tons of different builds on my own, and I read about new build combos on the rogue forums daily. Sab cannot hit 4 digits on a SINGLE TARGET, unbuffed. If we could, it would be all over the forums, and people would cry about it the same way they cry about Beastmasters and their broken DPS.

    I have a feeling this rogue you mention is hitting TWO training dummies with splash damage (Shrapnel Charge, most likely).
    Villainelle
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  12. #12
    Plane Touched
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    Excellent post. My main is a rogue that I leveled up to be a bard, but along the way I fell in love with the saboteur. I've been expecting a nerf (I think we all have) but the changes on alpha are far to extreme.

    I don't PVP at all, I'm shocked to see people saying that these changes won't have much affect on PVP, is that really true?! I only started playing with the sab at around 35, and never tried it during beta, so I admit I don't have the expertise that some others have playing the class. It makes no sense though, all of the complaining was because of what they can do in PVP, and yet according to some these changes will have little effect in PVP, and yet in PVE they will be gutted. Hopefully they revert some of these changes before this patch hits live.

  13. #13
    Shield of Telara Cabreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drekor View Post
    Not only did Trion overlook 7k crits they BUFFED them. What they nerfed was our sustained DPS which never EVER would get to a 7k crit as it's not using 5x blast.
    I must have been mistaken but I really thought Sabs were a burst dps class.......not sustained. I have seen Rng/MM break 1k single target hell I have seen bard specs break 1k single target. It may not be the game mechanics that has your dps that low but perhaps yourself.

  14. #14
    Shield of Telara Cabreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villainelle View Post
    Thanks, but there's no need. I've parsed tons of different builds on my own, and I read about new build combos on the rogue forums daily. Sab cannot hit 4 digits on a SINGLE TARGET, unbuffed. If we could, it would be all over the forums, and people would cry about it the same way they cry about Beastmasters and their broken DPS.

    I have a feeling this rogue you mention is hitting TWO training dummies with splash damage (Shrapnel Charge, most likely).
    On your own.... perhaps you lack the talent to make a stable rotation. and no he wasn't most of the parsers I have done on Mek were single target boss fights and nothing on a training dummy and if you know anything about some of the t2 boss mechanics you know you are constantly moving and avoiding hell. I will agree with you I am suprised how hard beastmasters hit but a lot of that is going away in 1.1 as well.

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    Soulwalker
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    I didnt bother reading all the replies, so this may have been said....but IMO the biggest change that needs to be made with Saboteur is:

    Make charge application break CC (sap/mez/disorient/etc). Done. Class fixed. TYVM

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