+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 30

Thread: If your interested in saving the Rogue class read this!

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    45

    Default If your interested in saving the Rogue class read this!

    The problem with the class and many others pertaining to address current issues is the lack of a coordinated effort to bring these issues to the table in a manner that can easily be understood and compiled. Everyday there are numerous threads about this being broken, this is unplayable and that nerf will kill soul X. It is in every class thread. Unfortunately Trion has not put a moderator, a voice to represent the classes (at least as far as I am aware).

    Therfore it rests on the community to bring the issues to the developers in a manner that simply cannot be ignored, if it is ignored then the developers have failed to listen and nothing more can be done other than live with it and play on or quit.

    So Im suggesting that this thread or maybe a thread per soul be created for the purposes of gathering data, thoughts and concerns. Remember everyone has an opinion and everyone wont agree thats fine but everyones opinion has some value and thats why the discussion topics are concerns and not called nerfs, bugs etc etc.

    Once enough data has been compiled on a soul I or anyone of this communities choosing can email it to Trion or ingame a GM and present our concerns until that information is acknowledge as received. I would also suggest a link to the thread for their review to see the number of people who believe that some changes are needed.

    It will be difficult to keep the thread on track, there will be flaming and arguing but we must move beyond that for the benefit of the class. The focus needs to stay on the respected soul and its mechanics vs PVE and PVP to truly be constructive.

    If your interested in truly trying to make a change please feel free to comment as we need all the help we can get. As for me, I dont claim to know as much as half the people in this community when it comes to this game, thats why I value your input and proceed with my own thoughts with caution. "I know enough to know there are things I dont know". I have a 50 rouge and warrior so I have experienced a very different type of game from each class. I will say that even though I dont know a ton about the game dynamics like some of you math genius theorycrafters I am a supervisor in my job and have been for many years. I understand how to coordinate, lead and communicate and these things are vital in my opinion.

    So again whats the communities thoughts on this suggestion, if there is no interest then I will simply let it fall to the wayside and continue to play and pray along with watching the forums have no real purpose for the most part other than a big whine fest. I hope we as a group are better than that.

  2. #2
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    45

    Default

    73 people have read and no thoughts? Come on......

  3. #3
    Prophet of Telara Pipra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,008

    Default

    I think you're being over-dramatic. We haven't even seen the full notes for 1.1 yet, including any changes for Assassin, Nightblade, or Marksman. What we have seen is just the Alpha version of the notes, which can and do change.

  4. #4
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,549

    Default

    The alpha notes have been very, very close to the actual patches. And it's not like they forgot the other rogue classes - there are no changes for them.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker Vethix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Its amazing to see all the threads about Marksman and how broken they are because they cant match the dps of other classes.
    While its true they are underpowered in the DPS department they do have an amazing set of other abilities that make them very valuable if you know how to play them.

    Marksmen are NOT ranged DPS machines - Dont even try and think that they are - they are not.

    What they are - at least in my opinion - and thats the way I play them - are CC specialists. Lets take a few scenarios here to explore that assertion.

    1st - Warfront(Codex) - (Defiant Side) - Game starts - everyone makes a mad dash to try and control codex.

    You are the MM - you should be the first one on the scene above and beyond all other classes - throw a sticky bomb on the codex flag - throw up a pedestal and start slinging Fan Out and Crossfire if stuff starts getting close. If they get too close -which they will - thats what the Improved Repelling Shot is for (you did spec that didnt you?). Well given that you are ungodly squishy - you just got ganked by Guardian and your dead, respawning and waiting for the timer to go off.

    Did you kill a bunch of peeps - nope, did you get immediately ganked by Guardian players - yep and thats exactly what you wanted to do. You have given your slower teammates a chance to catch up and while the fleetfooted guardian folks were busy ganking your ***, the rest of your group managed to come in and focus fire and gank them right back...and now your side has control over codex (50% to 70% of the time this works provided that the levels arnt stacked against you and you are not simply outclassed. It happens. Save the whine for when you have cheese to go with it.)

    Ok so now your respawn timer just went off and you noticed that your side just lost codex - imagine that - SO what now - the codex is crawling with baddies and there is no way that your going to run up there solo and try to AOE the place and scare them away - so a quick peek at the mini map reveals that the Vault and the Statue of Thontic are being advanced on - great - this is where Marksmen can really shine. Head straight for the Vault. (As you know when your Defiant and your heading to the Vault you have to navigate a narrow crossing of rocks with water on both sides - Keep this in mind because this is where you can hold off the entire Guardian side solo.)

    While you are running across the narrow rocks you are met by 8 guardian players just a few feet in front of you. NOW --wait for it....wait for it...wait for it ----Crossfire them when they get on the rocks...walk backwards if you need so they think you are worried about it......timing and position is EVERYTHING...patience is the key. After you knock at least half of them in the water, the remaining others are closing fast - Sticky bomb right in front of you...back up, turn slightly to either side and wait...wait for it....wait for it some more----unleash hell - in the form of your Improved Repelling Shot...you should be able to easily knock the others off in the water...now mash the hell out of the Getaway and run towards the Vault...if you happened to notice...a number of your mates were behind you and are picking off those you put in the drink. - Did you Kill a bunch of Peeps - nope...Did you become a dps king - nope - did you sucessfully clear the way for your mates so that they could play fish in a barrell? - Yes you did - you soloed 8 guardian players and cleared the way for the rest of your mates who can focus fire and do the dirty work.
    (Whether or not you think this can work is irrealavent - I have used this tactic successfully about 60% of the time)

    Now lets see - we were running like hell towards the Vault....looks like you will have company

    Run to the end of the bridge and throw up a pedestal...you want them to charge you if they are a melee class - if not its a ranged slugfest and you want as much an adavtage as you can get.
    Option 1 - they come at you - perfect - let them get allmost to you and static shot them. Run and get the Vault flag. Hit your Getaway and your out of there.

    Option 2 - they stay at range - sick the pet on them - Cripple shot them, Sticky bomb them - hit the Getaway and go to them - face the pond and either Crossfire them or Repel shot them into the drink. If you Crossfire then keep moving forward and move them either behind that big rock or knock them off in the pond below the bridge. Just ignore your health falling like a rock - thats your timer - if you dont get them moved out or get some help in there youll be singing the respawn timer tune like a Bard in Heat.

    Option 3 - for whatever reason there are multiple baddies guarding it (a rareity to say the least, normally its a solo player or a couple of them). Your not good at fighting multiple players on even ground - run away - better part of Valor - he who fights and runs away - lives to fight another day.

    So assuming you were able to dispatch the solo guard and your heading back across the bridge, running past your mates that are a day late and a dollar short - everyone heads to the statue of thontic.

    Again another chance to shine as a MM. Just run right up to the flag like you own the place and drop a sticky on it...back wayyyyy the hell up and start with Fan Out or cripple shot the baddie that got through your sticky and now has friends incoming to gank you. WAIT for it....wait for it.....Crossfire and then mash hell out of Getaway and run towards the nearest group of friendlies...with any luck there is a cleric or bard nearby and you might catch a bit of healing - if not - accept death...become one with it...might as well cause your singing the respawn timer tune an octave above what you used to

    Now - with the respawn timer gone your thinking "thats a long *** run back to Statue of Thontic" - but wait a few peeps got bored at Codex and decided to run out to Translation Scope - Much fun here

    So charge right up and sticky bomb the **** out of the place - Cripple shot, and Crossfire everyone you can - your effectively spreading them out so they cant stay in a tight group - pick a target that someone else is allready frailing away at and provide support - Dont try to solo or 1v1 -youll loose - dont care how billy badass you think you are - your squishy...and they will prove it. Use Fan Out, Cripple Shot, Crossfire, Static Shot and for the love of good cooking keep the stickies down every time it refreshes. If you have a lot of runners use Barbed shot..and let them run. You are the MM you can control the battlefield and put people where you want them or your mates need them. If you see a mate in trouble - run up and repel shot the badie so that your mate can get the hell out of dodge....if it starts going to hell...which happens more times than not...its up to you to try and provide cover for those that chose the better part of valor.

    MM is a very strategic class...and as shown above it is not a dps class...there will be no setting up a pedestal somewhere high and raining death down upon enemies---hahahahah....in fact should you try such a damn fool manuever you will be ganked by everyone with eyes as nothing stands out like a squishy perched on a rock. Keep your *** on the move at all times...never stop for more than 15 to 20 seconds at a time...and thats a very very long time for a MM to be standing still.

    I love this class...its what keeps me playing...I love the hit and run and really could care less about dps because I rarely go after anyone to kill them...I go after them to piss them off and keep them off balance. I like being able to control the battlefield either directly or indirectly. If you find you dont like these things then maybe the MM is not for you. Perhaps a warrior or Cleric.

    For the devs - as much as I really dont care about the dps I do feel that MM's could use a very slight boost to dps or make sure that nothing (specifically warriors) cannot resist my knockbacks. I have had several that Improved repeling shot and Crossfire failed to work against. If these things can be consistantly resisted then what does a MM do other than become the other sides punching bag. Knockbacks are half of the strategy of an efeective MM...this needs to be addressed in my opinion.

    Cheers

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vethix View Post
    Its amazing to see all the threads about Marksman and how broken they are because they cant match the dps of other classes.
    While its true they are underpowered in the DPS department they do have an amazing set of other abilities that make them very valuable if you know how to play them.

    Marksmen are NOT ranged DPS machines - Dont even try and think that they are - they are not.

    What they are - at least in my opinion - and thats the way I play them - are CC specialists. Lets take a few scenarios here to explore that assertion.

    1st - Warfront(Codex) - (Defiant Side) - Game starts - everyone makes a mad dash to try and control codex.

    You are the MM - you should be the first one on the scene above and beyond all other classes - throw a sticky bomb on the codex flag - throw up a pedestal and start slinging Fan Out and Crossfire if stuff starts getting close. If they get too close -which they will - thats what the Improved Repelling Shot is for (you did spec that didnt you?). Well given that you are ungodly squishy - you just got ganked by Guardian and your dead, respawning and waiting for the timer to go off.

    Did you kill a bunch of peeps - nope, did you get immediately ganked by Guardian players - yep and thats exactly what you wanted to do. You have given your slower teammates a chance to catch up and while the fleetfooted guardian folks were busy ganking your ***, the rest of your group managed to come in and focus fire and gank them right back...and now your side has control over codex (50% to 70% of the time this works provided that the levels arnt stacked against you and you are not simply outclassed. It happens. Save the whine for when you have cheese to go with it.)

    Ok so now your respawn timer just went off and you noticed that your side just lost codex - imagine that - SO what now - the codex is crawling with baddies and there is no way that your going to run up there solo and try to AOE the place and scare them away - so a quick peek at the mini map reveals that the Vault and the Statue of Thontic are being advanced on - great - this is where Marksmen can really shine. Head straight for the Vault. (As you know when your Defiant and your heading to the Vault you have to navigate a narrow crossing of rocks with water on both sides - Keep this in mind because this is where you can hold off the entire Guardian side solo.)

    While you are running across the narrow rocks you are met by 8 guardian players just a few feet in front of you. NOW --wait for it....wait for it...wait for it ----Crossfire them when they get on the rocks...walk backwards if you need so they think you are worried about it......timing and position is EVERYTHING...patience is the key. After you knock at least half of them in the water, the remaining others are closing fast - Sticky bomb right in front of you...back up, turn slightly to either side and wait...wait for it....wait for it some more----unleash hell - in the form of your Improved Repelling Shot...you should be able to easily knock the others off in the water...now mash the hell out of the Getaway and run towards the Vault...if you happened to notice...a number of your mates were behind you and are picking off those you put in the drink. - Did you Kill a bunch of Peeps - nope...Did you become a dps king - nope - did you sucessfully clear the way for your mates so that they could play fish in a barrell? - Yes you did - you soloed 8 guardian players and cleared the way for the rest of your mates who can focus fire and do the dirty work.
    (Whether or not you think this can work is irrealavent - I have used this tactic successfully about 60% of the time)

    Now lets see - we were running like hell towards the Vault....looks like you will have company

    Run to the end of the bridge and throw up a pedestal...you want them to charge you if they are a melee class - if not its a ranged slugfest and you want as much an adavtage as you can get.
    Option 1 - they come at you - perfect - let them get allmost to you and static shot them. Run and get the Vault flag. Hit your Getaway and your out of there.

    Option 2 - they stay at range - sick the pet on them - Cripple shot them, Sticky bomb them - hit the Getaway and go to them - face the pond and either Crossfire them or Repel shot them into the drink. If you Crossfire then keep moving forward and move them either behind that big rock or knock them off in the pond below the bridge. Just ignore your health falling like a rock - thats your timer - if you dont get them moved out or get some help in there youll be singing the respawn timer tune like a Bard in Heat.

    Option 3 - for whatever reason there are multiple baddies guarding it (a rareity to say the least, normally its a solo player or a couple of them). Your not good at fighting multiple players on even ground - run away - better part of Valor - he who fights and runs away - lives to fight another day.

    So assuming you were able to dispatch the solo guard and your heading back across the bridge, running past your mates that are a day late and a dollar short - everyone heads to the statue of thontic.

    Again another chance to shine as a MM. Just run right up to the flag like you own the place and drop a sticky on it...back wayyyyy the hell up and start with Fan Out or cripple shot the baddie that got through your sticky and now has friends incoming to gank you. WAIT for it....wait for it.....Crossfire and then mash hell out of Getaway and run towards the nearest group of friendlies...with any luck there is a cleric or bard nearby and you might catch a bit of healing - if not - accept death...become one with it...might as well cause your singing the respawn timer tune an octave above what you used to

    Now - with the respawn timer gone your thinking "thats a long *** run back to Statue of Thontic" - but wait a few peeps got bored at Codex and decided to run out to Translation Scope - Much fun here

    So charge right up and sticky bomb the **** out of the place - Cripple shot, and Crossfire everyone you can - your effectively spreading them out so they cant stay in a tight group - pick a target that someone else is allready frailing away at and provide support - Dont try to solo or 1v1 -youll loose - dont care how billy badass you think you are - your squishy...and they will prove it. Use Fan Out, Cripple Shot, Crossfire, Static Shot and for the love of good cooking keep the stickies down every time it refreshes. If you have a lot of runners use Barbed shot..and let them run. You are the MM you can control the battlefield and put people where you want them or your mates need them. If you see a mate in trouble - run up and repel shot the badie so that your mate can get the hell out of dodge....if it starts going to hell...which happens more times than not...its up to you to try and provide cover for those that chose the better part of valor.

    MM is a very strategic class...and as shown above it is not a dps class...there will be no setting up a pedestal somewhere high and raining death down upon enemies---hahahahah....in fact should you try such a damn fool manuever you will be ganked by everyone with eyes as nothing stands out like a squishy perched on a rock. Keep your *** on the move at all times...never stop for more than 15 to 20 seconds at a time...and thats a very very long time for a MM to be standing still.

    I love this class...its what keeps me playing...I love the hit and run and really could care less about dps because I rarely go after anyone to kill them...I go after them to piss them off and keep them off balance. I like being able to control the battlefield either directly or indirectly. If you find you dont like these things then maybe the MM is not for you. Perhaps a warrior or Cleric.

    For the devs - as much as I really dont care about the dps I do feel that MM's could use a very slight boost to dps or make sure that nothing (specifically warriors) cannot resist my knockbacks. I have had several that Improved repeling shot and Crossfire failed to work against. If these things can be consistantly resisted then what does a MM do other than become the other sides punching

    bag. Knockbacks are half of the strategy of an efeective MM...this needs to be addressed in my opinion.

    Cheers
    Wall of text crits you for 10000000000000 damage...you die

  7. #7
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    480

    Default

    Vethix,

    I hate you lol. You have ruin MM for me. Although your use of the MM is very intuitive and cool, the abilities don't match up to what you are claiming it to be. If anything they are clearly suppose to be a kitting DPS class. There amazing speed abilities along with Strafe and Barbed shot clearly indicate the intentions of the class. The only problem is they toss in the amazing damage abilites that makes them great for Burst damage but they have to stop to use them. Which is fine as the pedastals need to be planted and would be geared towards a group setting where you can stand still. The DPS nerfs suck but they did a poor job of making it up else where. Hit and Run needs a shorter cool down and the 50% energy reduce needs to be earlier in the tree. In fact there is a 2 point talent that reduces the CD by 30% but 30% of too long is too long still. I hope they will take a look and realize we are still out of line. Damage doesnt need to be increase, our abilities just need some fine tuning. But i do see their PVP CC abilities.
    Last edited by SvnStrSlm; 03-24-2011 at 11:49 AM.

  8. #8
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    45

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipra View Post
    I think you're being over-dramatic. We haven't even seen the full notes for 1.1 yet, including any changes for Assassin, Nightblade, or Marksman. What we have seen is just the Alpha version of the notes, which can and do change.

    Over dramatic in what regard? Im simply suggesting we work together and get the lines of communication rolling to help improve the class. If you think the class is fine currently then please state so.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    45

    Default

    Thanks Magicbullet for a detailed post. I will wait and see what all we get for peoples thoughts and compile them all together and we can go from there.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    45

    Default

    It may be more easy to simply post 3 to5 general thoughts about each soul good, bad or whatever.

  11. #11
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    43

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by magicbullet View Post
    Wall of text crits you for 10000000000000 damage...you die
    With patch 1.1, wall of text will have its damage reduced by 50% and have its range reduced to 20 m.

  12. #12
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    45

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cinik View Post
    With patch 1.1, wall of text will have its damage reduced by 50% and have its range reduced to 20 m.
    I agree .....also stealth has been removed!
    Last edited by Darrkon; 03-24-2011 at 12:32 PM.

  13. #13
    Shadowlander Findlyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    31

    Default

    I think part of the problem with rogues, are some of our souls seem to be confused on what they want to be. Take BD for example, its about 40/60 in defensive talents and DPS talents. Riftstalker doesnt seem to be fully focused on survival/mitigation either. Nightblade looks like its confused if it wants to be ranged or melee. Sab is about laying charges/throwing bombs from a distance, but you have to be up close for traps.

    While some of the trees synergize really well, some of the time you feel like you are just putting points into a tree just to get something else later.

  14. #14
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    43

    Default

    Lol to actually be constructive in this thread now though, there are two major problems with the rogue calling relative to others at this point in time.

    The first is the weakness of our spammables. The calling in general is far too focused on finishers. Any other calling will deal similar dps at any point in its rotation, not accounting for cd's of course. In both pvp and pve (mostly trash mobs) our dps is significantly cut off if the target dies in the middle of our rotation. The fact that combo points add to the target while charge and action points add to the player exaggerates this problem. Our shorter gcd does not compensate for this either, as the calling was clearly intended for one big hit every 6 seconds.

    The second is the weakness of attack power, which scales quite poorly compared to weapon dps. Our abilities often scale directly based on attack power (all finishers, backstab, etc.) which is in effect very little scaling. Warriors, the only point of comparison as an attack power calling, gets much of their scaling from %boosters which exaggerate the effect of weapon dps rather than being dependent on the less effective attack power. We are simply getting much less effective scaling on our abilities.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched Grumblejin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Tempe,AZ
    Posts
    149

    Default

    i've been playing ranger/mm/bard up untill lvl 47 41/9/12
    12 pts gave me the group heal hot and came in handy.
    now the only way this spec can heal is if it gives up all of it's dps.
    so now all you get are 2 buffs or play cadence and no dps.
    way to short sheet the bed.
    realy stupid move and probably done because of pvp qqr's.
    same story different game even though they claimed they could make changes that only effect
    pvp and keep pve they chose to nerf pve game play.
    the nerf train has started and we have seen it before and it will not stop this is only the beginning.
    seen it to many times sorry to see it ruin yet another game that had promise.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts