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Thread: Melee Rogues in 1.1 - *Please Contribute, Rogues*

  1. #1
    Cyo
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    Default Melee Rogues in 1.1 - *Please Contribute, Rogues*

    After seeing the first pass of patch notes, I have to say I'm pretty happy with most of the changes. I was certain I'd see some melee rogue tweaks. I was particularly bummed to see assassination wasn't even touched (as of now). Here is a brief, and constructive, list of changes I (and others) feel Trion really should make to make this a competitive class:

    Assassination

    1. Overall dot damage increase. Assassin dots, other than a critical Jagged Strike, do very little damage.

    2. Backstab does very little damage compared to Savage Strike.

    3. Some of the talents should require fewer points to open up taking some of the poison-oriented skills. Cruel Vengeance and Posion Mastery, for example, require too many points for the return benefit.

    4. Assassins need a better snaring mechanism. Malicious strike is A) unreliable, B) can only be applied from melee range, and C) has far too short a duration. With an 8 second duration, rouges are only given 6.5 seconds to dps due to Malicious Strike being on the global cooldown. Even worse, Malicious Strike does not award a combo point despite the fact that it nearly needs to be spammed to keep on a target.

    I would like to see some form of passive snare, be it through poisions or some form of attack.

    5. Assassins need a baseline speed increase, a root breaker, or preferably both combined. Even if assassination did receive a decent snare, one stun, root or any other cc puts them out of melee range and leaves them forever kited.

    6. Assassins need a healing debuff considering they are a dot oriented, low damage, class. Currently, even Bard healing outpaces Assassin bleed damage.

    7. Assassins have no way to interrupt spell casting. The build is desperately missing a silence.


    Riftstalker

    Since many rogues are required to take points in Riftstalker due to the inherent lack of mobility in the Assassin and Nightblade trees, it is worth including this tree in the discussion:

    1. Shifting should not trigger the global cooldown. Currently, even shifting to a kiting target is typically a futile endeavor as a snare cannot be applied for 1.5 seconds. Most players will just continue kiting or apply another cc.

    2. Stalker Phase should provide a 15% damage increase at all times; not just after shifting.


    Nightblade

    In my opinion, this is one of the nicer rogue trees but it leaves out too much as the primary soul in any build. However, I do consider this the most "complete" melee rogue tree.

    1. Damage is too low. In trade-off for having non-physical damage, Nightblade abilities do less damage than the already very low Assassin damage.

    2. Nightblade has no stun or a reliable snare (like the Assassin). Twilight Force is better than Malicious strike in that it's ranged, but it still isn't great for catching a kiting target if you're snared.

    3. Nightblade also needs a run speed increase/root breaker/temporary root immunity.

    4. Like the Assassin, Nightblades need a silence (that doesn't require stealth).

    Bladedancer

    Bladedancer seems to have many of the abilities the other melee trees are missing. This soul brings a sprint, a ranged silence, a 10 second snare, a disarm, a snare breaker, and an activated damage boosting cooldown.

    Unfortunately, while all the rogue goodies are here, making this seem like a good tree, it just doesn't work. It requires too many points to get the necessary rogue abilities, and is severly limited by the lack of stealth. Furthermore, if you pick up everything this tree brings to make a viable rogue build, you miss out on a healing debuff, stuns, damage, etc.

    Conclusion

    I am posting this because I truly love this came and I truly love the rogue play style. I want to be as constructive and helpful as possible to make melee rogue builds viable in Rift. It is no coincidence that VERY few people play melee rogue builds in Warfronts or in PVE situations. I hope this information is helpful and I encourage other rogues to add on to this list. I understand what I have provided is in no way exhaustive or all-encompassing of our issues.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Cyo; 03-24-2011 at 08:13 AM.

  2. #2
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    Agreed with most of the things you said about melee rogues.

    Assassins: we do need some sort of dps increase, if this is not possible then please give us some way to control our target better. A (-healing skill) in this soul would be awesome and so would some sort of silence.

    Riftstalkers: I mostly play a riftstalker in PvE groups for expert dungeon and it seems the threat and damage of a riftstalker does not scale with the difficulty of the dungeon. Right now if a warrior goes all out damage, theres no way i'm keeping threat even if I use all my cool-downs and I tab target though every single mob.

    Suggested changes to the Riftstalker:
    -Boosted Recovery should increase healing by 2-6% and when in Guardian Phase increase it by an additional 4-12% (the original 30% was a bit too much IMO)
    -Rift Disturbance and Shadow Blitz need a slight damage increase to scale with the AoE damage being done by the heavy hitters.
    -Give us a new skill "Static Rift" or something. This skill would be a finisher that works off combo-points. This skill has a 30 second cool down. This skill would do AoE that puts a rift under your feet (6m wide?) damaging near by enemies every second for 2-6 seconds depending on how many combo points you use. This skill also generates threat for every second a enemy is hit by it.

    I know this is a melee post but im going to go over ranged as I play them aswell. (and lord knows all the rogue souls are in dire need of help).

    Marksman: Slight DPS increase across the board. We need some sort of a bleed that dosen't require the target to be moving.

    Ranger: Haven't played them enough to know exactly what needs to be changed but also a slight dps increase would be nice as they seem to not be able to kill anything, lol.

    Other souls I have not play enough of to be able to suggest changes. Hopefully the people who post make some good changes aswell.
    Last edited by Thavatol; 03-24-2011 at 08:36 AM.

  3. #3
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    Well to start this, on PvE side the general melee-unfriendliness in dungeon encounters is making people look for RPDS.

    Otherwise, I'm running BD with NB & Sin supporting it. One thing I noticed that I found just idiotic about the Sin tree is that poisons do not scale with anything from your gear. To conduct this test I bought statless white-quality vendor daggers and two swords.

    Hit the training dummy with only daggers on, then swords. Weapon damage didn't seem to have any effect on the poison ticks. Next I tried some dex/str/ap gear, no effect on the poison ticks. Just to be sure, I tried one more time with wisdom/int/sp gear, no effect.

    Basically, in comparison when your gear gets better, the poison keeps getting worse as an ability to enhance with talent points. Only good reason to use them besides the marginal dps increase they might prove, is lethal poison and the +5% crit taken on target. Rather use Hellfire Blades with the NB talent to get +5% damage instead of wasting soul points for +% poison damage or such.
    Last edited by Naraen; 03-24-2011 at 08:54 AM.

  4. #4
    Cyo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naraen View Post
    Well to start this, on PvE side the general melee-unfriendliness in dungeon encounters is making people look for RPDS.

    Otherwise, I'm running BD with NB & Sin supporting it. One thing I noticed that I found just idiotic about the Sin tree is that poisons do not scale with anything from your gear. To conduct this test I bought statless white-quality vendor daggers and two swords.

    Hit the training dummy with only daggers on, then swords. Weapon damage didn't seem to have any effect on the poison ticks. Next I tried some dex/str/ap gear, no effect on the poison ticks. Just to be sure, I tried one more time with wisdom/int/sp gear, no effect.

    Basically, in comparison when your gear gets better, the poison keeps getting worse as an ability to enhance with talent points. Only good reason to use them besides the marginal dps increase they might prove, is lethal poison and the +5% crit taken on target. Rather use Hellfire Blades with the NB talent to get +5% damage instead of wasting soul points for +% poison damage or such.
    Excellent point. In fact, my original melee build was 32 sin/32 nb and I used hellfire blades + lethal poison on my weapons. Otherwise, poisons are pretty bad. Even with this very offensively specced build, we are orders of magnitude behind other DPS classes/roles.

  5. #5
    Xzi
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    +1 from me on the points made by the top two posts.

    Imo melee rogues certainly need a damage increase, improved methods of keeping up with a target (assassin) and a heal debuff or silence.

    Bring melee rogues up a bit (as suggested in this thread), tone down pyro mages and champ warriors a bit and the balance would just about be there considering the nerf to sabs and riftblades already in the works.
    Xzi the Cleric
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  6. #6
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    I may have missunderstood you and if I have then I am sorry but while individually all your changes make sense if combined they would turn the assassin an already good soul into an unstoppable killing machine.
    Assassins do not need mobillity that is what the other souls provide, there must be a sacrifice for going 51 pt assassin for the VERY good 51 pt skill.

    The change I feel assassins need the most is a spell interrupt because as it is now an assassin can't really do much about casters(ok a slight lie, you can actually destroy mages if they ain't pyros with ground of strenght but since mages are getting buffed that might all change soon.) and the fact that there are only two rogues souls with spell interrupts is silly, and heck one of them is even a finisher with a semi-long cooldown.

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    I agree with most of this, but you said Assassins don't have an interupt? I use my foul play to interupt all the time o.O;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Treesprout View Post
    The change I feel assassins need the most is a spell interrupt because as it is now an assassin can't really do much about casters(ok a slight lie, you can actually destroy mages if they ain't pyros with ground of strenght but since mages are getting buffed that might all change soon.) and the fact that there are only two rogues souls with spell interrupts is silly, and heck one of them is even a finisher with a semi-long cooldown.
    Blind is a spell interrupt, and even if you put 51 into Sin, you can still put 12 into BD for Weapon Barrage.

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    Rift Disciple Darkhan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyo View Post
    After seeing the first pass of patch notes, I have to say I'm pretty happy with most of the changes. I was certain I'd see some melee rogue tweaks. I was particularly bummed to see assassination wasn't even touched (as of now). Here is a brief, and constructive, list of changes I (and others) feel Trion really should make to make this a competitive class:

    Assassination

    1. Overall dot damage increase. Assassin dots, other than a critical Jagged Strike, do very little damage.

    2. Backstab does very little damage compared to Savage Strike.

    3. Some of the talents should require fewer points to open up taking some of the poison-oriented skills. Cruel Vengeance and Posion Mastery, for example, require too many points for the return benefit.

    4. Assassins need a better snaring mechanism. Malicious strike is A) unreliable, B) can only be applied from melee range, and C) has far too short a duration. With an 8 second duration, rouges are only given 6.5 seconds to dps due to Malicious Strike being on the global cooldown. Even worse, Malicious Strike does not award a combo point despite the fact that it nearly needs to be spammed to keep on a target.

    I would like to see some form of passive snare, be it through poisions or some form of attack.

    5. Assassins need a baseline speed increase, a root breaker, or preferably both combined. Even if assassination did receive a decent snare, one stun, root or any other cc puts them out of melee range and leaves them forever kited.

    6. Assassins need a healing debuff considering they are a dot oriented, low damage, class. Currently, even Bard healing outpaces Assassin bleed damage.

    7. Assassins have no way to interrupt spell casting. The build is desperately missing a silence.


    Riftstalker

    Since many rogues are required to take points in Riftstalker due to the inherent lack of mobility in the Assassin and Nightblade trees, it is worth including this tree in the discussion:

    1. Shifting should not trigger the global cooldown. Currently, even shifting to a kiting target is typically a futile endeavor as a snare cannot be applied for 1.5 seconds. Most players will just continue kiting or apply another cc.

    2. Stalker Phase should provide a 15% damage increase at all times; not just after shifting.


    Nightblade

    In my opinion, this is one of the nicer rogue trees but it leaves out too much as the primary soul in any build. However, I do consider this the most "complete" melee rogue tree.

    1. Damage is too low. In trade-off for having non-physical damage, Nightblade abilities do less damage than the already very low Assassin damage.

    2. Nightblade has no stun or a reliable snare (like the Assassin). Twilight Force is better than Malicious strike in that it's ranged, but it still isn't great for catching a kiting target if you're snared.

    3. Nightblade also needs a run speed increase/root breaker/temporary root immunity.

    4. Like the Assassin, Nightblades need a silence (that doesn't require stealth).

    Bladedancer

    Bladedancer seems to have many of the abilities the other melee trees are missing. This soul brings a sprint, a ranged silence, a 10 second snare, a disarm, a snare breaker, and an activated damage boosting cooldown.

    Unfortunately, while all the rogue goodies are here, making this seem like a good tree, it just doesn't work. It requires too many points to get the necessary rogue abilities, and is severly limited by the lack of stealth. Furthermore, if you pick up everything this tree brings to make a viable rogue build, you miss out on a healing debuff, stuns, damage, etc.

    Conclusion

    I am posting this because I truly love this came and I truly love the rogue play style. I want to be as constructive and helpful as possible to make melee rogue builds viable in Rift. It is no coincidence that VERY few people play melee rogue builds in Warfronts or in PVE situations. I hope this information is helpful and I encourage other rogues to add on to this list. I understand what I have provided is in no way exhaustive or all-encompassing of our issues.

    Thanks!
    Really.....nb doesnt need a stun, runspeed, out of stealth silence, and wtf, dmg to low?
    Gonna post a video later tonight proving you are SO wrong, l2p.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhan1 View Post
    Really.....nb doesnt need a stun, runspeed, out of stealth silence, and wtf, dmg to low?
    Gonna post a video later tonight proving you are SO wrong, l2p.
    Quoting this so I can come back later tonight and see you have not posted a video.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyo View Post
    With an 8 second duration, rouges are only given 6.5 seconds to dps due to Malicious Strike being on the global cooldown.

    1. Shifting should not trigger the global cooldown. Currently, even shifting to a kiting target is typically a futile endeavor as a snare cannot be applied for 1.5 seconds. Most players will just continue kiting or apply another cc.
    You realize that rogue GCD is 1 second, right?

  12. #12
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    i think they need to reword the rogue classes description on the website , i love the rogue class but now im abit disillusioned what to spec now everything seems broke or nerf'd , On launch the amount of rogues i saw was insane the auction house never had a rogue item on it barely , just all warrior and mage items but i think thats gunna change with people rerolling a class which is much better then the rogue in its current state,

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absalon View Post
    Blind is a spell interrupt, and even if you put 51 into Sin, you can still put 12 into BD for Weapon Barrage.
    Blind is a 10 second confuse and not a spell interrupt. There is a BIG difference.
    I am aware of weapon barrage and if you read my post you would know I was. Please read it all over again kind sir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Treesprout View Post
    Blind is a 10 second confuse and not a spell interrupt. There is a BIG difference.
    I am aware of weapon barrage and if you read my post you would know I was. Please read it all over again kind sir.
    If you cast Blind while a caster is casting, what will it do? Come on, think hard.

    Considering you most likely have a bleed on the target already, you aren't getting 10 seconds out of it.

    Yeah, you mentioned that 2 other souls have interrupts, and said that Sins need one. I merely pointed out that you can easily get the one from BD, and that Blind can be used as an interrupt. So you can easily have 2 ways to interrupt casters, yet you claim you have none. Not my fault you don't see what's right in front of your face.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absalon View Post
    If you cast Blind while a caster is casting, what will it do? Come on, think hard.

    Considering you most likely have a bleed on the target already, you aren't getting 10 seconds out of it.

    Yeah, you mentioned that 2 other souls have interrupts, and said that Sins need one. I merely pointed out that you can easily get the one from BD, and that Blind can be used as an interrupt. So you can easily have 2 ways to interrupt casters, yet you claim you have none. Not my fault you don't see what's right in front of your face.
    If you cast Blind while a caster is standing on Ground of Strength, what will it do? Absolutely nothing.

    To the OP: You sure there even will be melee rogues in 1.1?
    Last edited by Lucubration; 03-24-2011 at 09:42 AM.

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