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Thread: I see absolutely no point to playing a bard anymore

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
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    Default I see absolutely no point to playing a bard anymore

    I've got a 51 point, level 50 bard and I see absolutely zero reason to play him (and no, this isn't as a result of the proposed Alpha 1.1 patch notes, but is a result of actually playing said bard at level 50 for over a week and realizing how pointless the soul is). First off in 5 man instances a bards buffs are not equal to, nor of greater value than, filling that slot with another DPS role. For example if a DPS player can bring 600-800 DPS to the table, and the bard's buffs + his DPS only add 400-500 DPS to the group, which benefits the group more? Secondly, in 5 man instances you really don't need group or off healing because the tank can pretty much grab and hold aggro on all mobs and most boss encounters aren't doing heavy AE type damage (and if they are you just have your melee DPS switch to ranged souls for that one encounter). A single healer can easily solo heal a 5-man instance.

    So, can someone then tell me why you would want to fill a 5th spot with a bard over another DPS class (other than for pity's sake)?

    In warfront PvP bards actually had some usefulness for group healing to off-set all the AE damage occurring everywhere, but the reality is that bards are extremely easy to kill or silence and remove from the fight (due to low armor mitigation, average health, lack of escape or CC removal abilities, etc.). Because bards lack the range of mages or ranger/hunters, coupled with the fact that a bard needs to be doing damage in order to group heal, the are forced to stay up front in the thick of battle. This makes them easy picking for warriors, mages, heck, pretty much any DPS class. Add in the visual graphics of cadence acting like a giant neon sign saying "I'm a bard, please follow my cadence graphic to me for an easy kill or just have your team's sabo toss a choking gas bomb on me to silence me for 8 seconds" and bards are a joke in PvP at level 50. Also the vast majority of bard healing in warfronts was over-healing on players with full health.

    So lets look at the proposed 1.1 patch notes (btw, anyone else ever notice how "proposed" patch notes always seem to make it to live as is?) and speculate on the affect this will have:

    Invigorated Soul, Coda of Restoration: Now affects up to 5 targets.
    So the talent has been reduced from affecting 10 players to only 5. One could argue that this would necessitate bringing more bards in a raid, maybe even one for each group, but I would venture it won't be the case because a single target spot healer would be more effective.

    Motif of Tenacity: Now unlocked at 12 points.
    Anthem of Defiance: Now unlocked at 18 points.
    Okay. Um, not sure why these changes were deemed necessary. Sure you can now pick it them up at an earlier level, but its not like this makes bards ZOMG so much better than bringing another DPS soul instead of a bard.

    Motif of Regeneration: Now unlocked at 24 points. Now casts on the Bard and heals up to 10 raid or group members nearby with each tick.
    I'm interested to see how this one pans out. Currently this is a (very) minor HoT that works A) as long as the bard has the motif up (which requires refreshing it every 15 seconds (30 with higher tier talent point investment)), and B) the group/raid members are within range of the bard's abilities. Moving this further down (from unlocked at 12 points to 24 points) IMO only serves to make leveling as a bard that much more difficult and pointless. I also don't foresee this change as one that will spur raids to want more bards because the healing from this HoT is just so minimal.

    IMO these changes to bards simply make them even less desirable in a raid and really pointless now in a warfront. Sure you can try and argue that by limiting the bard's effect to 5 or 10 players it will cause a greater need for bards, but I disagree (speculatively, of course). I think it will have an opposite effect and players will quickly realize that the utility/buffs of a bard are easily provided by other classes, and the low AE HoTs and abysmal DPS of bards simply aren't worth the trade off of high DPS or solid healing other classes bring to the table.
    Last edited by Godzillamax; 03-24-2011 at 07:22 AM.

  2. #2
    Sword of Telara Mr Malingers's Avatar
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    They will still be raid mandatory.
    So if you don't see their point anymore stop playing it.
    Maybe he just wanted to steal our wire cutters. You ever think of that?

  3. #3
    Ascendant Haseno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Malingers View Post
    They will still be raid mandatory.
    So if you don't see their point anymore stop playing it.
    Not true, in Greenscale at 50.

    Most bards are replaced by Chloro/Archon builds.


    Haseno
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  4. #4
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    I am still hoping this will be the game where I can swap out some decent aoe healing/buffing when called on and go about my stealthy, single target merry way in small open-world/solo player-hunting situations. Maybe even do some decent range-type stuff, or at least get enough slows/debuffs on to catch players and kill them. Not all at the same time, but the option to do one or another. The nuclear option (sabo) was an interesting surprise.

    It was looking really promising for a while there.

  5. #5
    Sword of Telara Mr Malingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haseno View Post
    Not true, in Greenscale at 50.

    Most bards are replaced by Chloro/Archon builds.
    Which got the same nerf Bards did
    Maybe he just wanted to steal our wire cutters. You ever think of that?

  6. #6
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Malingers View Post
    They will still be raid mandatory.
    So if you don't see their point anymore stop playing it.
    I have. I realized around level 40 that leveling/questing/instancing as a bard was pointless. I switched to my bladedancer/nightblade soul at that point and have never looked back. Anyone who levels as a primary bard is simply a glutton for punishment (or a fool). Not long after hitting 50 I realized that a warrior can do everything a melee bard can do, but much much better. Now I'm leveling a warrior and it IS head and shoulders above the rogue melee souls in every shape and form. BTW, if you enjoy playing your rogue, more power to you. I'm simply pointing out that when I run an instance, raid, PvP, etc. I prefer to bring to the table my A game. But when my A game is more like a D compared to other cllasses simply because of the limitations and lackluster design of the rogue class, then they have to carry my weight which I dislike.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Haseno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Malingers View Post
    Which got the same nerf Bards did
    Chloro/Archon is still more desirable. Chloro can actually be a sufficient single target healer, while Archon buffs are more plentiful and better.

    Excluding Tempered Armor vs. Anthem of Glory (which is something bards have the advantage on).


    Haseno
    "Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
    I love my comma's, deal with it, chump.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haseno View Post
    Chloro/Archon is still more desirable. Chloro can actually be a sufficient single target healer, while Archon buffs are more plentiful and better.

    Excluding Tempered Armor vs. Anthem of Glory (which is something bards have the advantage on).
    Since bard Anthem of Glory can affect an entire raid, guess how many bards a raid will need? If all a raid wants is one anthem, and you don't really care are about the bards AE HoTs, then one bard is sufficient in a raid of 20 players to give all players an anthem and all motifs (sans Motif of Regeneration which now only heals up to 10 players). Since bard DPS is so pathetically low they are basically buff-bots and group off healers. That second function has been emasculated, which basically leaves bards as buff-bots (with buffs that can be replicated by other classes that bring more to the fight).

  9. #9
    Sword of Telara Mr Malingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haseno View Post
    Chloro/Archon is still more desirable. Chloro can actually be a sufficient single target healer, while Archon buffs are more plentiful and better.

    Excluding Tempered Armor vs. Anthem of Glory (which is something bards have the advantage on).
    Chloro is only a more sufficient single target healer than Bard, it's still not a sufficient single target healer.
    And like you said Bard still has Buffs that other don't.

    1 Bard is just as needed now as it was before.
    And multiples were really never wanted before anyway.
    Last edited by Mr Malingers; 03-24-2011 at 07:51 AM.
    Maybe he just wanted to steal our wire cutters. You ever think of that?

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple Obyran's Avatar
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    This soul seems to be having an identity crisis. I still feel hopeful that Trion will give some attention to all of the rogue souls in relation to Raid-ability. I dont' mind the low bard damage, but there isn't currently much trade off with great healing or buffs. I will say though, I do great in WFs as 44Bard/Ranger. Even with the proposed bard nerfs I don't see that really affecting my PvP usefulness. I just wont be top of the healing charts every match...

  11. #11
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    The problem with bard as I see it is that the buffs are useless for the most part. Bards have long been a buffing class and the Rift bard just doesn't cut it. The only buffs that are noticeably useful are the endurance buffs (which directly increase hp and therefore survivability) and the runspeed buffs, and also to a lesser degree, the small increase in crit chance percentage. Buffs to attack power are largely useless and barely noticeable when applied, and the same goes to stat buffs such a strength and dexterity, which bards can't even buff the latter, not to mention most of our buffs get overwritten by class specific buffs anyway.

    Seeing the way attack power works, I'd recommend buffs to increase damage directly, such as + dmg buffs instead of AP increases, as well as attack speed buffs. I'd really rather see the bard go more in the direction of buffing than healing, and that means more powerful stat buffs as well. I'd also be happy if bard had its damage increased to be more useful in raids. Lowering cadence healing I have no problem with, but bards should maintain a powerful HoT ability that's at least group wide.

    A further note is the bard's role in CC...traditionally bards have been a strong cc class and that's something else the Rift bard has strayed from. When one warrior soul has six forms of cc and the bard only has two of the same type of cc, there's something wrong.
    Last edited by Vember; 03-24-2011 at 09:16 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vember View Post
    there's something wrong.
    Yup. A guildie and I were just doing minor lvl 50 rifts for a guild quest. He on his DPS cleric, me on my Bard. By the end of the Rift event he had outscored by such a huge margin it was laughable. He was scoring around 18-20k+ and I was lucky to do 8-10K. His rift rewards from such a higher level or participation points were way better than mine. Glad they are changing how the rift participation works, but it still highlights the huge disparity and how lackluster bards are (or better yet, just how much better other classes are than rogues). I tried switching to my bladedancer/nightblade and did worse than on my bard (because on bard I could at least spam my motifs to gin up my participation level).

    I'm just wondering what point rogues serve in this game outside sins for world PvP ganking. It seems every other class has a soul or combination of souls that can do what a rogue can do, but way better.
    Last edited by Godzillamax; 03-24-2011 at 09:29 AM.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple Roxina's Avatar
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    >.>

    In a group setting, bards aren't really going to see too much of a change. And in raids... You only needed one bard to begin with unless for whatever reason you were attatched to Verse of Joy. To me, it looks like the healing nerfs are mostly for warfronts, where stacked bards were kind of silly. (Fun, but frustrating as all hell to come up against.)

    If the only things getting their target cap reduced are Motif of Regeneration and Coda of Restoration, then I don't see a problem. Raids should have enough spot-healing available already that this won't be a giant issue. They might have to work a little harder- horror of horrors. It gives me an excuse to not spam cadence unless I absolutely have to, and focus more on motif spam, debuffs, and supplemental dps.

    Have yet to hit raid content (waiting on half of our guild to level still. Soon!) but if Chloro/archon mana feeds can keep people happy, then I'll be a happy camper. No more 51 bard. ^.^
    Roxina - 50 Kelari Mage - Wolfsbane

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roxina View Post
    >.>

    In a group setting, bards aren't really going to see too much of a change. And in raids... You only needed one bard to begin with unless for whatever reason you were attatched to Verse of Joy. To me, it looks like the healing nerfs are mostly for warfronts, where stacked bards were kind of silly. (Fun, but frustrating as all hell to come up against.)

    If the only things getting their target cap reduced are Motif of Regeneration and Coda of Restoration, then I don't see a problem. Raids should have enough spot-healing available already that this won't be a giant issue. They might have to work a little harder- horror of horrors. It gives me an excuse to not spam cadence unless I absolutely have to, and focus more on motif spam, debuffs, and supplemental dps.

    Have yet to hit raid content (waiting on half of our guild to level still. Soon!) but if Chloro/archon mana feeds can keep people happy, then I'll be a happy camper. No more 51 bard. ^.^
    This kinda sums up my point. The bard class has been reduced to one of those "oh its only usefulness is as a second or third soul to dump a few points into for the low tier abilities." Actually, my point was that this has always been the problem with the bard class.

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