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Thread: Rogues aren't useless...

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    Ascendant Haseno's Avatar
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    Default Rogues aren't useless...

    Look, I don't enjoy the fact that almost every DPS soul in the game is capable of more DPS than us at 50 (excluding saboteur) either. But the only reason we feel so lackluster, is because these other souls/callings are setting the bar so high compared to us.

    It's the reason why we feel handi-capped, and that we're underperforming. I think we all know the main calling we're referring to. That is especially setting this benchmark so high. Even more specifically a few particular souls in that calling...i.e. Beastmaster/Champ/etc.

    It sucks to try your hardest, and try every rotation known to man. To attempt and achieve 700 DPS and beyond. Compared to the warrior souls which are achieving 1k+ (the most i've seen being over 1.4k single target DPS). It's also a crappy feeling to be shunned into saboteur spec, to compete against this opposite callings potential.

    But...we aren't useless. We offer many utility spells, which can't be overlooked. I'm not saying we're infinitely more desirable than other callings. But we're far from useless.

    Inquisitors; via single target. Are achieving 750+, consistently.
    Majority of the DPS/2-hand Warrior builds are achieving 850+ Consistently (average 1k).
    Mage calling is really the only calling which we compete with, as a near equality.

    As for the bard/chloro healing changes. This troubles me more than anything, I understand from a balance perspective that healing shouldn't be the end-all be-all strategy to win warfronts. However...the bard was DESIGNED around healing MANY players. So now that a bard is restricted to 5 targets, it means our positioning will have MUCH MORE significance in warfronts or 6+ man fights. That is, assuming that it's position based, and not a spreadhealing mechanic found in games such as DAoC (smart group heal - heals those damaged)

    My complaint about the bard healing is...with a substantial change like this. I see nothing in which will compensate them. It's not about entitlement either. The bards main two aspects; are healing, and buffing, the third aspect being debuffing (but not a necessity).

    With the bard now requiring massive time spent to reposition, this will mean the bard is more prone to death via warfronts. The bard will have to position himself as close to the frontline (those being damaged) as possible, in order to heal 5 targets correctly. Thus making himself a target.

    Due to this, the Bard/Riftstalker spec is the only spec which will be viable in Warfronts. if not, bards are going to become a much easier kill, as they won't be able to rely on their team to shield them from damage. They will have to push in order to heal.

    What does a bard, have that can deter such death?
    This change is massive via bard, and I feel some things need added to them to compensate. Or they're going to become undesirable.

    However, they are still not useless.
    Last edited by Haseno; 03-23-2011 at 08:13 PM.


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    Plane Walker Villainelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haseno View Post
    But...we aren't useless. We offer many utility spells, which can't be overlooked. I'm not saying we're infinitely more desirable than other callings. But we're far from useless.
    What utility does any Rogue soul bring that is unique and not offered by a class that can provide that utility and more?

    Interrupts/silences are provided by warriors and clerics.
    CC is provided by mages and (lol) warriors.
    Bard buffs are duplicated and overwritten by other souls, and Motifs are a PITA to keep refreshed.
    The NB healing debuff is provided by mages.
    Etc.

    So we're at the bottom of the totem pole with mages when it comes to DPS, but unlike mages, most of our DPS souls have to DPS at melee range to be effective. And our so-called "utility" and support is duplicated by other souls--souls that do it better, and provide more to the group.

    Remind of the part that makes us not useless again?

    (This is all post Patch 1.1, obv.)
    Last edited by Villainelle; 03-23-2011 at 09:22 PM.
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    Ascendant Haseno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villainelle View Post
    What utility does any Rogue soul bring that is unique and not offered by a class that can provide that utility and more?

    Interrupts/silences are provided by warriors and clerics.
    CC is provided by mages and (lol) warriors.
    Bard buffs are duplicated and overwritten by other souls, and Motifs are a PITA to keep refreshed.
    The NB healing debuff is provided by mages.
    Etc.

    So we're at the bottom of the totem pole with mages when it comes to DPS, but unlike mages, most of our DPS souls have to DPS at melee range to be effective. And our so-called "utility" and support is duplicated by other souls--souls that do it better, and provide more to the group.

    Remind of the part that makes us not useless again?

    (This is all post Patch 1.1, obv.)
    Those motifs, make a difference. That bard healing, does still make a difference.

    No matter what, rogues aren't useless. Are they in need of some tweaking? Yes. But so are many other souls.

    The difference is that benchmark I have expressed above. If rogues actually competed equally in terms of DPS (which not only is it harder, but requires more difficult rotations than other callings), then we wouldn't be having an issue.


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    lud
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    They only need 1 bard per run max. The game is cookie cutter forcing us into specs we don't want, the idea was to balance the tree's out instead sab has been nerfed so hard it's no longer a choice.

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    Ascendant Haseno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lud View Post
    They only need 1 bard per run max. The game is cookie cutter forcing us into specs we don't want, the idea was to balance the tree's out instead sab has been nerfed so hard it's no longer a choice.
    The way I'm reading the sab changes (to single target), is decreased burst.
    While allowing more sustainable DPS...but we'll have to see it for ourselves.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Haseno View Post
    The way I'm reading the sab changes (to single target), is decreased burst.
    While allowing more sustainable DPS...but we'll have to see it for ourselves.
    I dont know if you are talking about PvE DPS or what but the change to charge booster makes me think that you are incorrect.

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    Plane Walker Anesthetics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahrken View Post
    I dont know if you are talking about PvE DPS or what but the change to charge booster makes me think that you are incorrect.
    This guy is ******ed, disregard everything he says. Charge Booster allows us to provide a decent burst every once in a while in PVP. However, our PVE DPS is sub 500.
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    No matter what, rogues aren't useless. Are they in need of some tweaking? Yes. But so are many other souls.
    This is a little of what I've noticed about this class since beta 3:

    I beg to differ that many of the other classes even need more tweaking than a rogue. Rogues are suppose to be a main dps next to a mage. The two swing classes in my opinion should be a mage and rogue. Yet consistently I see clerics topping dps for aoe, 1900 - 2100 for a group. Solo dps, goes to warrior. Tank, goes to warrior. This is because the riftstalker has a 0 chance to even try and compete with a warrior (unless you want to wait the 2 minutes every pull to pop your dodge buff ?) The single target melee DPS spec's are absolutely broken - if you don't believe me compare savage strike to backstab. How about a dagger doing the same average damage using savage strike as an axe with a much higher min/max? I'm fairly certain this same average damage runs across all souls within the rogue sphere.

    In pvp rogues are just a target for everyone, I don't care if you are a bard or sab. All three other classes have heals, insta, timed, whatever (this is due to the recent nerf riftstalkers received [rift scavanger]). Stuns have diminishing returns, they also lower your dps, not to mention many classes are immune or it can be broken with a pvp spec. Slip away is broken as hell, even using a macro that stops attacking before popping the skill. Enduring brew is... worthless ? Running calculations using: [sin / nightblade] Blazing Fury and Coup De Grace don't actually affect sin abilities.

    But there are some ups: rangers work properly and so do marksmen. Are these able to compete in dps? No, these souls are not able to compete in dps with other aoe souls. Do they really help the group? Not when the aoe cleric provides a buff. Or you can just replace the ranger with a warrior, who also provides a buff. Did I mention clerics, mages and warriors can all res?

    Hell I might as well sit there and wait for a piece of leather to drop or obtain second hand weapons and trinkets. Because as it stands now: rogues are out classed, out damaged, out everything.

    But I sure can mine well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahrken View Post
    I dont know if you are talking about PvE DPS or what but the change to charge booster makes me think that you are incorrect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anesthetics View Post
    This guy is ******ed, disregard everything he says. Charge Booster allows us to provide a decent burst every once in a while in PVP. However, our PVE DPS is sub 500.
    So you think with the change to charge booster the DPS of Sabs will increase in PvE?

    Your comment actually sounds more like you were agreeing with what I was saying.

    I think you are just mad because I pointed out how bad you sound in another thread.

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    Ascendant Haseno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anesthetics View Post
    This guy is ******ed, disregard everything he says. Charge Booster allows us to provide a decent burst every once in a while in PVP. However, our PVE DPS is sub 500.
    I'm seeing saboteurs climb over 800 DPS consistently in their current implementation.

    Are you on alpha?


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    Ascendant Haseno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordekai View Post
    This is a little of what I've noticed about this class since beta 3:

    I beg to differ that many of the other classes even need more tweaking than a rogue. Rogues are suppose to be a main dps next to a mage. The two swing classes in my opinion should be a mage and rogue. Yet consistently I see clerics topping dps for aoe, 1900 - 2100 for a group. Solo dps, goes to warrior. Tank, goes to warrior. This is because the riftstalker has a 0 chance to even try and compete with a warrior (unless you want to wait the 2 minutes every pull to pop your dodge buff ?) The single target melee DPS spec's are absolutely broken - if you don't believe me compare savage strike to backstab. How about a dagger doing the same average damage using savage strike as an axe with a much higher min/max? I'm fairly certain this same average damage runs across all souls within the rogue sphere.

    In pvp rogues are just a target for everyone, I don't care if you are a bard or sab. All three other classes have heals, insta, timed, whatever (this is due to the recent nerf riftstalkers received [rift scavanger]). Stuns have diminishing returns, they also lower your dps, not to mention many classes are immune or it can be broken with a pvp spec. Slip away is broken as hell, even using a macro that stops attacking before popping the skill. Enduring brew is... worthless ? Running calculations using: [sin / nightblade] Blazing Fury and Coup De Grace don't actually affect sin abilities.

    But there are some ups: rangers work properly and so do marksmen. Are these able to compete in dps? No, these souls are not able to compete in dps with other aoe souls. Do they really help the group? Not when the aoe cleric provides a buff. Or you can just replace the ranger with a warrior, who also provides a buff. Did I mention clerics, mages and warriors can all res?

    Hell I might as well sit there and wait for a piece of leather to drop or obtain second hand weapons and trinkets. Because as it stands now: rogues are out classed, out damaged, out everything.

    But I sure can mine well.
    See. I'm not disagreeing with any of the points made about the rogue class. It is underperforming in comparison. But my point is that people are taking this to extreme negativies. As to saying the calling is useless.

    It's not useless, but it can be easily replaced at this point.


    Haseno
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haseno View Post
    I'm seeing saboteurs climb over 800 DPS consistently in their current implementation.

    Are you on alpha?
    I think its safe to assume he is talking about with the changes, because if he is not he is wrong.

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    Ascendant Haseno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahrken View Post
    I think its safe to assume he is talking about with the changes, because if he is not he is wrong.
    I was thinking the same thing. He's from <Addiction>, so I know he can't be talking about from their current implementation.

    I'm on the same server as him.

    I personally feel the rogue souls, in general. Are suffering from a lack of identity. Has anyone else noticed we actually do pretty decent AOE DPS?

    Nightblade
    Ranger
    Saboteur
    Bladedancer

    All generate pretty high AOE DPS numbers.
    Unlike older MMO's, rogues can't take huge %'s from Stealth. Personally, I would redesign the Saboteur completely, to be more of an AOE-Style/CC/Disable Rogue. Rather than being known for its single target burst and/or DPS. I feel the saboteur would be more interesting if the soul was revamped to use more bombs/traps rather than charges as its main mechanic.

    Small things like cutting the energy cost on fillers for all rogues, could highly alleviate many of the issues rogues are having on single targets.

    30-40energy for most finishers/5cp abilities.
    30 energy for fillers.
    Most finishers give energy back PER combo point.

    I feel addressing small things like this would go a long way for the entire calling.


    Haseno
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    Plane Walker Drekor's Avatar
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    However, they are still not useless.
    Not useless just not as good as anyone else right?

    Sounds like a glass half full/empty argument imo.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Haseno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drekor View Post
    Not useless just not as good as anyone else right?

    Sounds like a glass half full/empty argument imo.
    That's debatable. It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

    DPS? There is better, we already know this.
    Healing? We already know bards aren't the best direct healers.


    Haseno
    "Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
    I love my comma's, deal with it, chump.

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