+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Brief Overview (Review?) -- My Experience As the 7 "DPS" Souls

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    113

    Default Brief Overview (Review?) -- My Experience As the 7 "DPS" Souls

    First of all, let me preface this with some information:

    * I have played (nearly) every major MMO on the market. I have also played some not-so-major MMOs. In times past, I have invested a significant amount of time into both PVE and PVP aspects of the majority of games I play, and am an avid theorycrafter and one-time hardcore gamer. I now play at a less hardcore level of several hours a day, and prioritize work, school, and sleep, but I still carry over many of the tendencies from those times.

    * I am a min-maxer at heart, but at the same time I still tend to play what I enjoy to play when I have the opportunity. If I can spec a role that will do 50 more DPS than another, or run a role through trash that can maintain 2500 trash DPS on 5 mobs instead of 1500 or 2000 to make the dungeon go faster, I will. If my tank is having threat problems, I'll spec Saboteur for incriminate. If testing shows that a 2 point difference in my spec will result in 15 more dps, I'll change it.

    * I have an addiction to respeccing. Sometimes i'll carry 4 different ranged DPS specs for a dungeon and swap around several times during the dungeon trying different things, and STILL on a several dungeon spree I will recall back to Sanctum and respec one or two of them to tweak it.

    All of this being said, at my weeks at 50 I have had an opportunity to play with (And parse / analyze) all 8 (well, all 7 DPS related souls) in various situations and formulate a "generalized" opinion. What I mean by generalized is not necessarily posting parses and specific DPS numbers but instead placing a rating on how robust I feel like the souls are, their strengths, weaknesses, and overall performance relative to both the other callings and the other Rogue souls, and their various strengths/weaknesses in gameplay aspects in general.

    For now, this will focus on PVE aspects. I may touch on PVP briefly for some, but its easier to sort them seperately.

    To start, we'll go with *Drumroll* -- The Assassin.

    Assassin

    First, to start with -- I made my choice to play a rogue with a primary focus on Assassin. At this point in time, I believe I made a mistake in assuming that was a possibility. It seems like Trion has taken the ease of carrying multiple roles very seriously, and designed encounters with reckless abandon to alienating melee. They KNOW you can switch to a ranged spec when needed, so what if the encounter instagibs all melee participants? This is a serious flaw, in my opinion, as some peoples preferred playstyles fall into categories of "melee" or "ranged" and not "rogue" "warrior" "mage" "cleric". It would be one thing if 20% of the encounters didn't favor melee and required ranged specs to be effective (or require so much melee downtime that you would be silly not to just bite the bullet and spec range), but if anything its the inverse of that. Probably 80% of the encounters are either deathtraps for melee, or require you to stand out of range or do so much movement out of range that they are rendered more of a liability than a benefit. On top of this, their DPS is by no means competitive enough to warrant this. At best, they're middle of the road for Rogues, tied with Rangers and Nightblades, but below Saboteur by leaps and bounds currently. They beat only MM, Bard, and Bladedancer.

    In addition to this, they have little or no AoE viability, even with the (Relatively weak) weapon flare that a Nightblade subspec would provide.

    The upside, however, is that the low tier assassin abilities (minus half of t2 for ranged DPS) provides for an excellent subspec for nearly every single Rogue Soul, even running a paired hybrid in the 30+/30+ range. They have a number of great passives with exceptional synergies. At this time, however, this is about all I would say they're useful for. Their DPS could be bumped up slightly, and encounters could be designed with Melee more favorably in mind. The Assassin spec is also probably the most engaging spec combat wise out of the rogues (Which isn't necessarily saying much).

    Solution: Un-nerf Serrated Blades, or make a higher tier talent improve it in some way. Buff expose weakness for high-investment assassins. Fix Attack power scaling. Buff backstab. Make poisons scale better. And for the love of god, make more melee friendly encounters.

    Bard

    Oh my oh my... bard... where do I start?

    The good: Buffs, buffs, and more buffs. Healing.

    These are the only two reasons to really bring a bard to your group. That, and to make run-backs from that terribly long RD or AP wipe slightly shorter, but anything with a bard spec in the wings can accomplish this just the same. They provide JUST enough healing to set clerics over the threshhold on some encounters, and make the group healing capabilities and longevity of Chloros trivialize those aspects of an encounter. Any spike or bursty damage (Besides AoE-type spike, I.E. AP final boss) and you are back to square 1, though. Support healing and nothing more.

    The buffs are also another story. Half of them don't stack with buffs your group in many cases will already supply, other classes have better versions, or simply don't mean much in terms of scaling due to near useless values/scaling of attack power. They offer a modicum of crit, percentage stats, damage reduction, and some passive healing, which unless you're hurting for the extra healing from cadence and the occasional coda of restoration/motif of regeneration are not worth the loss of 750 or more DPS you would gain by just having him play Saboteur.

    Bard DPS is on par (at best) with Riftstalkers, which laughably enough are the lowest DPS of the 3 tanks currently by a fair margin. This is due to two factors: 1) Laughably low dps abilities (cadence/codas) and 2) The vast majority of their abilities being damageless buffs. Problem #2 is the greatest problem, in my opinion. You spend 5 globals and a fair amount of energy every 30 seconds re-buffing motifs (not to mention the tedium of doing so... piano key'ing your 1-5 keys or whatever isn't exactly fun), but in order to buff spell and physical damage debuffs on the mob you also run two damageless finishers. Anytime you need to burstheal with Coda of Restoration you also once again give up your only significant chunk of damage with Coda of Wrath, leaving you for long periods with just Cadence for damage. Not fun, not engaging, and very overrated in their usefulness.

    The only situation where I would bother bringing a bard is: 1) If the primary healer needs just a little bit of help to keep the group up and it wouldn't be worth swapping a mage to chloro and you don't have a cleric that can play inqui/justi and 2) their buffs aren't redundant with other members of the group. Oh, and one per raid.

    Bard as a subspec is useful only really to tanks, or to really wacky hybrid builds that are really good at nothing but okay at several things.

    Solutions? Consolidate some motifs. Theres too many. Consolodate the debuff codas, and add damage components to them so that its not a wasted global most of the time. Make fanfares more robust, perhaps combine effects or something, but in most groups (Especially raids) you don't even have to bother casting a fanfare or an anthem due to living energy, pyro int buff, etc.

    Bladedancer

    First of all... I LOVE the CONCEPT of Bladedancer. Properly synergized with a sin/NB sub, its an incredible SOLO PVE spec. This is my spec of choice for soloing rifts, solo PVE, questing, etc. I don't buy into the Riftstalker sub as i'm not a fan of pooling combo points, because leeching poison and if needed a quick vial pop and I rarely need to drink, and if I do its all of 3 seconds worth.

    That being said, the concept is EXTREMELY flawed. I mean, why design a spec that is useful in one circumstance, that being soloing, in an MMO? Sure, it fills that niche -- but its a spec with an awesome design that could be so much more robust and useful in other situations, too. There have been several suggestions made in various threads over the last few weeks, and probably the most viable suggestion I have seen is to allow your dex buff to grant the party (or the tank) a "guard" (for you warhammer players) like function where the tank's dodges/parries/blocks activate your reactive talents and abilities. This would allow them to maintain an enjoyable solo play while also able to put out some reasonably competitive numbers in PVE, especially in dual or triple target situations. They won't have the mass aoe capability of a saboteur, or a 4-5 target capability of a ranger, but they'll still be more competitive than the assassin (or potentially even nightblade). This also, I believe, wouldn't overpower them greatly in PVP. Bladedancers in PVP have their own set of issues.

    Bladedancer's damage in PVE where they are not taking steady streams of hits is a ways above Bard and Rift and probably slightly below MM, making them #3 (But leaps and bounds better than the previous two) on the DPS scale, due to inability to use reactives and dodge based abilities.

    Also, BD is one of the several specs that have next to no viability as a 51 point tree and BD as a subspec is useful to a whole 1 role: Riftstalker. For 8 points.

    Solution: An awesome concept does not necessarily indicate a viable one. Bladedancers are a TON of fun to play (Who doesn't like seeing 5 combo points suddenly appear?) in a solo PVE environment, but even just one simple tweak could make them both viable and potentially the most fun PVE melee spec for rogues. Allow them to place a buff on the tank, or bake it into the dex buff, which allows them to proc off of the dodges of other players.


    Marksman

    The current state of marksman is the epitome of a spec that was nerfed due to PVP and now suffers in PVE. Global ability damage nerfs have butchered the marksman spec to the point of near uselessness, as they rank dead in the middle of the Rogue DPS Hierarchy. There are claims of high DPS marksman specs, but they have yet to be proven. They are an extremely bursty class that relies on being able to stand still in a pedastal and turret (Which is even more prevalent if you try to go 51 points) which completely goes against current encounter design, if not quite as bad as pretending you can be effective as a melee. Any ability with a cast time is a DPS loss, and the marksman tree is loaded with them. This pretty much leaves you with 3 very non awe inspiring finishers and a generic spammy CP builder, just with fluff talents to buff them. Marksman is the only non-pet oriented alternative to a saboteur ranged spec, which pretty much pigeonholes any serious player into a Sabo spec if they wish to provide competitive ranged DPS without complete reliance on a pet.

    The cast time abilities also run into another problem: They require a large amount of energy to cast, and because of the lengthy cast time you often find yourself energy capping if for whatever reason you DO attempt to use them. This creates a double hit on DPS. Make the use more streamlined, add a greater cooldown and reduce energy cost, make them proc based ... who knows, but they need something.

    Marksman is a viable hybrid spec only for a select few Ranger builds, and even so, Assassin and Nightblade are typically better choices.

    Solution: Buff cast-time abilities, slightly buff instant cast abilities. They just need an all around DPS boost. Allow Serrated Blades to work with ranged weapons again. Please the masses by providing a viable non pet based alternative.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Nightblade

    I'll keep the nightblade section fairly short, as they have pretty much the exact same problems as assassin while providing very similar DPS, just in a different format. They have decent in-fight burst with Ebon Fury and scale sub 30%, but they're only slightly more viable in Melee due to their dual damage reduction/invulnerability cooldowns and their ability to maintain a small amount of DPS with a ranged combo builder and finisher.

    Nightblade is on par with Assassin as being the best all around subspec for most Rogue callings.

    Solutions: Pretty much the same as Assassin

    Ranger

    Rangers are actually in fairly good shape right now. They're probably one of the more balanced Rogue roles if properly specced (They do equal DPS as Sins/NB's, maybe slightly less but scaling well with multiple targets due to trick shot/concussive shot and rain of arrows), but the pet reliance is a hindrance on a number of encounters. The main problems they encounter are the ones that will randomly one shot your pet, or require very specific positioning that only a manually played melee could accomplish, and for gods sake please add debuffs to the party interface for pets. The bosses in AP and RD expert that add spreading or AoE debuffs make ranger specs practically useless due to the pet being a complete liability. A little micromanagement on most fights, however, allow them to be much more flexible than a melee spec since you don't stop 100% of your dps when you pull your pet out for 5 seconds.

    Their rotation is only slightly more exciting than MM, with a few more options for multi-mob pulls. Pet management adds a little bit of depth, but pet management on other fights is non-existant due to the mentioned uncontrollable one shot mechanics. Overall, for someone who is always conscious of their pet's status, it is a relatively fun and balanced spec to play, but again is outshined by Sabo by leaps and bounds, and on any encounter a DPS warrior can actually DPS on they're made to look like little puppies.

    Ranger is a solid subspec to varying degrees for several melee specs, Sabo, and MM.

    Solutions: Make pets slightly more durable, show pet debuffs on the party interface. Fix quick shot's dot to refresh but not reset ticks. Perhaps make Serrated Blades function with ranged again at 100%. Make cast time abilities more worthwhile to use to add depth to the rotation.

    Saboteur

    Ugh. That is all that can be said. Due to the power of the Saboteur's several specs (melee spec, ranger spec, pure ranged spec for pet inviable fights), as well as superior aoe and single target DPS, the most movement friendly DPS, and the ability to DPS without getting damage shield gibbed on the fights that have those mechanics, it makes saboteur better to an extreme degree than any of the other specs. Their DPS could be brought down slightly. They could be made more exciting to play (Just because you press 5 buttons in a rotation doesn't make it anymore exciting than pressing 1 buttons 5 times, since they're filling essentially the same function). They have pretty decent utility if specced right (carpet bombing aoe anni bomb to save tanks, anyone?), incriminate, snare, a nearly infinite single target stun in PVE for non immune mobs (mostly useful for high output trash to give healers some recovery time). Granted, some of these aren't useful on bosses... but thats why they're also the highest single target DPS in the calling currently (and perhaps second or third in the game, pending the obnoxiously frustrating to play bugged archon). On top of this, they're the only all around viable rogue PVP DPS spec, and, well...

    THEY'RE INCREDIBLY BORING TO PLAY IN 90% OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

    It is literally the same thing over and over and over again with no variation whatsoever. Zero. None. And yet anyone who is looking to get the most out of their character is pigeonholed into this spec in order to get the 150-200 more DPS out of it that it allows.

    Sabo is also a pretty terrible subspec, unless you consider 31 sabo/34 ranger it being a subspec, even though 80% of your damage comes from the sabo side.

    Solutions: Reduce its DPS, buff other DPS, make it more fun by allowing bombs to be more viable. Who knows, just fix it, and fix everything else so that I can stop going spike spike spike spike spike (or blast spike spike spike spike if you subscribe to that) followed by detonate blast shrapnel ember splinter caltrop detonate over and over. Its not just broken because of its DPS, its broken because its not fun. Right now rogues are either Saboteur, Bard (for whatever reason), or ****, and that doesn't provide for variety.


    All in all, I enjoy the versatility of my rogue -- I just wish that versatility were expanded more. I want to actually be able to carry a melee spec without feeling like i'm wasting a spec slot that could be another specialized sabo spec or bard. I just want to have some fun, and right now playing a subpar spec with a group thats expecting me to be at my best is a little disheartening, and playing saboteur just isn't fun to me.

  3. #3
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    32

    Default Why you leave out Riftstalker and Infiltrator?

    I was reading and soaking up all your views with great interest. Then I got to the end and the class that I play was negleted from your study. Granted I am only lvl 30 but I have enjoyed pretty good success in pvp and pvp using riftstalker as my main with some ranger and sin/infil tossed in. Why no love? I was really interested in what you had on rifters.

  4. #4
    Champion
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    517

    Default

    I felt like I wrote this post -- and I'm brilliant! So, therefore, you must be brilliant.

    Good coverages of points and how easily replaceable a ton of our "niches" are. Also, I had the damn same idea in the other thread for BD! *Shakes fist*

    edit: 1 "critique" I think people are overblowing the melee unfriendliness of this game a bit, it is not 80% or even close to that # of bosses.... granted some are FAR too punishing but there are a decent amount that you can do fine if you just keep aware of your surroundings and (more importantly) your tank does as he should.

    edit2: 1 more critique, sab is the hardest rotation we have...... granted it is not hard, and it is not "fun" but what dps rotation is ever "fun"? by "hardest" i mean, it will penalize you a pretty good amount for messing it up. Which is a good thing.
    Last edited by sano; 03-23-2011 at 01:44 PM.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by metallis01 View Post
    I was reading and soaking up all your views with great interest. Then I got to the end and the class that I play was negleted from your study. Granted I am only lvl 30 but I have enjoyed pretty good success in pvp and pvp using riftstalker as my main with some ranger and sin/infil tossed in. Why no love? I was really interested in what you had on rifters.
    Unfortunately, I don't really subscribe to riftstalker as a sub or mainspec for any viable DPS spec for PVE. PVP, on the other hand, is a different story. If they added ALL plane shifts to the crit/damage bonus from shifting and buffed AP scaling then it may be a different story. Its fun, kinda like BD -- but not really viable on a competitive level.

    As far as sabo rotation being hard... its theoretically simple and not difficult to math out at all, and the only "mistake" thats really going to punish your DPS is by blowing a 5x spike charge right before a boss immune phase or something or accidentally refreshing spike with a single charge... but those are mistakes that should be rare and few and far between (or you just keyboardface while playing it and happen to accidentally do so).

    To touch on the "fun" aspect -- I consider more "dynamic" rotations fun. Any rotation that I could literally macro to a g5 keyboard button and press it each time my energy ticks isn't really particularly fun. Theres zero variation, no procs/reactives, no choice in abilities at all in a single target environment. Multitarget and it changes a little bit (Especially with anni bomb/carpet bombing) but in most cases that simply isn't true.

    Also, when I term something "melee viable" or "melee inviable" -- I can survive just fine on the vast majority of encounters as melee, but due to movement requirements, time I have to spend OUTSIDE of melee in order to survive (last boss in IT, anyone?) while ranged blasts away, or simply fights like the spider in IT or Scarn in DD where a slight error in positioning or random turn-punch-ko means you're a soul tether soak reduce mediocre dps into a might-as-well-be-a-bard-or-mm level.
    Last edited by Xilrasis; 03-23-2011 at 01:55 PM.

  6. #6
    Champion
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilrasis View Post
    Unfortunately, I don't really subscribe to riftstalker as a sub or mainspec for any viable DPS spec for PVE. PVP, on the other hand, is a different story. If they added ALL plane shifts to the crit/damage bonus from shifting and buffed AP scaling then it may be a different story. Its fun, kinda like BD -- but not really viable on a competitive level.

    As far as sabo rotation being hard... its theoretically simple and not difficult to math out at all, and the only "mistake" thats really going to punish your DPS is by blowing a 5x spike charge right before a boss immune phase or something or accidentally refreshing spike with a single charge... but those are mistakes that should be rare and few and far between (or you just keyboardface while playing it and happen to accidentally do so)
    As opposed to, lets say nightblade..... where you can screw up your rotation by umm.....not.... umm... hitting your spam combo point macro and finishers right? Clipping spikes, blowing charges with 1 in the air, 1 spiking off a 4 spike..... theres lots of things you can blow as sabo, excuse the pun. It's obvious your not a proponent of sab, but every rotation of a rogue is easier than it... unless using a different finisher to get a buff v. damage is "hard," but now we're just nitpicking.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    113

    Default

    New post since its too late to edit...

    Man, I keep editing too -- the RELATIVE unfriendliness to melee is the only reason warriors function in PVE dps roles at this point in time. With their beefy (bugged) DPS as bm/champ/para, they can push high enough numbers that even on the unfriendly fights they level out around the same as everyone else. Riftblade needs a serious PVE buff to give them a viable ranged spec if they intend to drop them down to reasonable single target melee levels. Its on the fights that are completely melee friendly that make people look at parses and go omgwtf.

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sano View Post
    As opposed to, lets say nightblade..... where you can screw up your rotation by umm.....not.... umm... hitting your spam combo point macro and finishers right? Clipping spikes, blowing charges with 1 in the air, 1 spiking off a 4 spike..... theres lots of things you can blow as sabo, excuse the pun. It's obvious your not a proponent of sab, but every rotation of a rogue is easier than it... unless using a different finisher to get a buff v. damage is "hard," but now we're just nitpicking.
    Again, my definition of a difficult rotation isn't really the technical details like that, its a difference in dynamic or static rotations. You literally have 0 abilities with a cooldown, 0 reactives, 0 change in order that you press your buttons. Ever.

    I agree with you, however, that none of the rogue souls have any real level of complexity. I believe rotational simplicity in this game is way overstated due to them watering down everything so that they could come up with 8 "unique" souls without TOO much ability overlap or too many unique abilities per soul that would make subspeccing inviable (or too viable).

  9. #9
    Champion
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilrasis View Post
    To touch on the "fun" aspect -- I consider more "dynamic" rotations fun. Any rotation that I could literally macro to a g5 keyboard button and press it each time my energy ticks isn't really particularly fun. Theres zero variation, no procs/reactives, no choice in abilities at all in a single target environment. Multitarget and it changes a little bit (Especially with anni bomb/carpet bombing) but in most cases that simply isn't true.

    Also, when I term something "melee viable" or "melee inviable" -- I can survive just fine on the vast majority of encounters as melee, but due to movement requirements, time I have to spend OUTSIDE of melee in order to survive (last boss in IT, anyone?) while ranged blasts away, or simply fights like the spider in IT or Scarn in DD where a slight error in positioning or random turn-punch-ko means you're a soul tether soak reduce mediocre dps into a might-as-well-be-a-bard-or-mm level.
    You can macro, and much easier, any other rotation in the game..... what reactives do we have? Outside of BD which you actually BENEFIT from macro'ing (as they become unavailable after you use another ability) You're arguing hypotheticals, unless I'm grossly missing something -- if so, please enlighten me.

    There are fights like that, but I haven't found them as plentiful as people seem to claim, and our best melee pve non-sab spec, nightblade, has some very respectable ranged dps to keep you afloat (I wish all trees were designed like this, ranged having decent melee for phase and melee having solid ranged) till you can get back in and dusk strike your heart out. Scarn in DD and Gatekeeper (and he's melee'able, but los'ing from ranged is just so much easier) are the only 2 fights I can think of that I just won't melee on -- and maybe the rock guy in DSM, but that's just a laziness thing.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sano View Post
    You can macro, and much easier, any other rotation in the game..... what reactives do we have? Outside of BD which you actually BENEFIT from macro'ing (as they become unavailable after you use another ability) You're arguing hypotheticals, unless I'm grossly missing something -- if so, please enlighten me.

    There are fights like that, but I haven't found them as plentiful as people seem to claim, and our best melee pve non-sab spec, nightblade, has some very respectable ranged dps to keep you afloat (I wish all trees were designed like this, ranged having decent melee for phase and melee having solid ranged) till you can get back in and dusk strike your heart out. Scarn in DD and Gatekeeper (and he's melee'able, but los'ing from ranged is just so much easier) are the only 2 fights I can think of that I just won't melee on -- and maybe the rock guy in DSM, but that's just a laziness thing.
    I guarantee you that you're losing DPS if you're macroing some specs. Your dusk strike is half a second or a second from coming up right as you tick enough energy to backstab or primal strike, or your puncture is the same -- you are at 3 CP -- if you backstab, 1) you waste some CD time on puncture or Dusk Strike and 2) you waste a CP. You were going to be Energy starved after either attack, so relative timing matters only in the situation where you want to get your higher damage/cp gen ability on CD while also not wasting the extra CP if you can. In this case if you had backstabbed, you would likely have gone a half second or so over the CD on one of the above abilities and at the same time wasted that additional CP and had to wait on an energy tick to put it on CD to boot. Effective loss in DPS. Since you are limited by Energy and not by CDs as most specs, they are significantly more dynamic (especially due to latency) than a simple macro allows, Bladedancer notwithstanding. This is also excluding any dynamic finishers (impale/final blow, nb finishers, etc)

    Ranger can't be macro'd due to alternating attacks being more DPS currently where possible due to quick shots dot tick not ticking unless you pause between shots since it clips for whatever unknown reason. MM I havn't really looked into due to it being a mostly worthless spec currently. NB couldn't really be macro'd due to spike clipping and rotating finishers, and again the above dusk strike cooldown limitation. Sabo couldn't be macro'd using the ingame system, but since its a completely static rotation it could be macro'd through external means.

    Those are just some examples of why other specs require a LITTLE (emphasis on the LITTLE) more thought into their rotations. Sabo could be played by a braindead monkey on top of being ranged and the most mobile of the rogue souls in PVE. Its not that I have a problem with sabo per se, I just don't enjoy the gameplay style and yet I feel pigeonholed into it.



    In addition, you state that you still melee on encounters that don't necessarily favor Melee. By doing so, for every second you're not in range of the boss -- the gap between you and the sabo (or ranger) increases. For every second the boss is AoE'ing and you can't safely stay in range, the gap increases. For every debuff or AoE effect that spreads or affects people within x yards, you are that much more of a liability. Many bosses have melee range only knockbacks/fears/disorients. Many have damage shields that are much more deadly to a dual wielding fast attacking assassin or NB than any other spec in the game (granted, most are predictable -- but you still have to stop attacking until it wears/is dispelled... whereas a sabo can continue stacking charges untouched, and even detonate and only get tagged once).

    You require more healing than any ranged role on any encounter.

    If you pull aggro, the mob turns around and swings once and youre dead, where at least with a ranged there is a CHANCE to have him taunted or pulled back. At least a warrior can survive one or two swings from most things.

    Positional requirements on cleaves.

    Your aoe is worse than any other spec as the two current melee specs.

    The list goes on.

    While I "can" spec melee for probably half of that 80%, why would I? I just become an added liability, and most of them continue to drop my already mediocre dps by significant chunks by forcing me to stand there with my thumb up my *** or running suboptimal ranged rotations while waiting on the pretty AoE to stop.

    Melee is just punishing in this game.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    15

    Default

    I think this post is accurate. I've spent tons of time playing with all the rogue souls and I've come to many of the same conclusions. The most interesting souls to me (BD, Sin, NB) can't compete with the DPS output of the Sab but I refuse to play the Sab because it's so boring (to me, no offense to those who enjoy it). I would be very happy if even one my favorite souls was raiding viable and I see no good reason why all of them shouldn't be at least within the same realm. As it is I'm stuck playing Bard for guild raids which is only slightly more enjoyable than sab to me. A bit off topic but I wish trion had looked to Vanguard for an enjoyable bard model rather than this 30 second piano refresh/cadence spam.

  12. #12
    Champion
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilrasis View Post
    I guarantee you that you're losing DPS if you're macroing some specs. Your dusk strike is half a second or a second from coming up right as you tick enough energy to backstab or primal strike, or your puncture is the same -- you are at 3 CP -- if you backstab, 1) you waste some CD time on puncture or Dusk Strike and 2) you waste a CP. You were going to be Energy starved after either attack, so relative timing matters only in the situation where you want to get your higher damage/cp gen ability on CD while also not wasting the extra CP if you can. In this case if you had backstabbed, you would likely have gone a half second or so over the CD on one of the above abilities and at the same time wasted that additional CP and had to wait on an energy tick to put it on CD to boot. Effective loss in DPS. Since you are limited by Energy and not by CDs as most specs, they are significantly more dynamic (especially due to latency) than a simple macro allows, Bladedancer notwithstanding. This is also excluding any dynamic finishers (impale/final blow, nb finishers, etc)

    Ranger can't be macro'd due to alternating attacks being more DPS currently where possible due to quick shots dot tick not ticking unless you pause between shots since it clips for whatever unknown reason. MM I havn't really looked into due to it being a mostly worthless spec currently. NB couldn't really be macro'd due to spike clipping and rotating finishers, and again the above dusk strike cooldown limitation. Sabo couldn't be macro'd using the ingame system, but since its a completely static rotation it could be macro'd through external means.

    Those are just some examples of why other specs require a LITTLE (emphasis on the LITTLE) more thought into their rotations. Sabo could be played by a braindead monkey on top of being ranged and the most mobile of the rogue souls in PVE. Its not that I have a problem with sabo per se, I just don't enjoy the gameplay style and yet I feel pigeonholed into it.



    In addition, you state that you still melee on encounters that don't necessarily favor Melee. By doing so, for every second you're not in range of the boss -- the gap between you and the sabo (or ranger) increases. For every second the boss is AoE'ing and you can't safely stay in range, the gap increases. For every debuff or AoE effect that spreads or affects people within x yards, you are that much more of a liability. Many bosses have melee range only knockbacks/fears/disorients. Many have damage shields that are much more deadly to a dual wielding fast attacking assassin or NB than any other spec in the game (granted, most are predictable -- but you still have to stop attacking until it wears/is dispelled... whereas a sabo can continue stacking charges untouched, and even detonate and only get tagged once).

    You require more healing than any ranged role on any encounter.

    If you pull aggro, the mob turns around and swings once and youre dead, where at least with a ranged there is a CHANCE to have him taunted or pulled back. At least a warrior can survive one or two swings from most things.

    Positional requirements on cleaves.

    Your aoe is worse than any other spec as the two current melee specs.

    The list goes on.

    While I "can" spec melee for probably half of that 80%, why would I? I just become an added liability, and most of them continue to drop my already mediocre dps by significant chunks by forcing me to stand there with my thumb up my *** or running suboptimal ranged rotations while waiting on the pretty AoE to stop.

    Melee is just punishing in this game.
    Man those are stretches .. lets just agree to disagree, i like playing all the dps specs and find them equally 'mindnumbing' not that I mind that.

    The points you make are good though, in your analysis of the specs.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts