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Thread: Sincere Posts only! Rogue changes/fix

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Sincere Posts only! Rogue changes/fix

    Hello everyone,

    I am posting this thread in hopes to avoid all the unintelligible complaining and arguments that are occurring on every other thread. I hope that this post will be an example for everyone else posting on my thread to follow.

    What i hope to get here is an easily read, and well organized post on the problems with rogue classes. If you post a supposed problem please offer a solution, dont just post "omg warrior are so overpowered and i want you to remove rogue spec form game!" - Sorry i love my rogue, i love the "idea" of how a rogue is supposed to be played, and i have no problem killing people, surviving in mass pvp or pve.

    I am Marksman/Rang/Sin for those who will be curious to ask later, most points are going into Marksman.

    LET THE THREAD BEGIN:

    I feel that it is a little difficult for a rogue to DPS at maximum efficiency because we cannot 'carry' our combo points from one target to another, like a warrior can.

    Some might argue that warriors need to carry their combo points to cast their buffs/skills that are non-offensive, my argument is that rogue has defensive based classes that also rely on combat points I.e: Bard, which has a heal dependent upon, and increasing with more combo points.

    It would be nice to see some rogue skills, get a % increase on top of weapon damage, much like the warrior does, this should allow for better damage scaling, when at higher levels.

    Lastly, It would be a great balance to either increase the scaling damage rogues will receive from having 5 combo points on a target, or decrease the amount of combo points needed to deal maximum damage to 3, again this is a similarity with warrior. I argue this because as a marksman, in the time it takes me to build up 5 combo points for a decent 800-1500 dmg skill;

    A) in the case of Rogue Vs Warrior: the target is right on top of me and disabling/stunning, and the fight is already lost (unless one gets lucky with 'On The Double' to get away from snares, or uses KnockBack/Rapid Extraction to maintain the distance again, however the CD on these skills does not merit their value since most warrior classes are able to close the distance gap with a charge, and even with 'click to move' it is exceedingly difficult to Kite, since "You Must be facing your target" so either you have little idea what is going on whilst rappidly running away and swinging your camera back and forth to maintain the ability to kite.)

    B) In the case of a Rogue vs Cleric: by the time that the 5th combo point is build up, the cleric is already aware that you are attacking him... All a cleric with any skill has to do is to place a couple HoT's and then DPS, the duration and power of HoTs in this game is absurd, A cleric can place any number of HoT's on himself/herself and manage to outlast MOST classes in 1v1 combat. Although this is not the appropriate thread i feel a very viable and simple fix for this is to remove the cleric's ability to wear chain armor and either entirely remove HoT's from the game replacing them with more MP efficient instant heals. This would allow for a cleric to focus on healing one target at a time, outside of group heals, While the current situation seems to be that the Cleric can cast 2-3 AoE HoT's and then focus on DPS? Remove Cleric DPS and give them s'more buffs! or debuffs! or CC! make them a cleric! not a mage with greater heals.

    Any How guys thats my 2 cents, TEAR IT UP.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    In addition:

    Lots of the Marksman kiting issues may also be solved by allowing the full duration of our Static Shot, regardless of incoming Damage. Maybe reduce the duration to 3 or 4 seconds to balance it out.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    Too many of the changes you suggest would make for a game that pretty much would be completely different from Rift. Let's address your points in a few issues.

    1.) Complains about warriors - they can choose top damage and utility - this is an issue, yes but one unrelated to balancing warriors - If class A is OP and you balance class B to do better around class A, where does that leave classes C and D? Does it become a buff race to see who can be the most nuts? Fixing warriors should start with warriors.

    2.) Rogues need to carry over combo points - I disagree. PVE we're quite fine, PVP it makes target switching difficult, true, but that's part of class design.

    3.) Rogues need combo points for Coda of Restoration - Minor point, but I think coda of restoration should have no range restrictions / LoS requirements. If you build up the points and your target runs, you should always be able to pop the heal.

    4.) Rogues need a bigger % on their skills - Not sure what you mean by this.

    5.) Kiting - Kiting is easier in Rift than it was in WoW. It's up to you to be able to turn with the camera, strafe, and kite. I'm not trying to sound snyde, but the balance is there in terms of kiting mechanics - you just need to be more experienced in how to use them. However, one point that's annoying is sometimes repelling shot doesn't seem to work, and it can be annoying to have static shot break or be broken by someone else in a warfront.

    6.) Warrior versus rogue - Warriors have tons of utility, as do rogues. Warriors are a few pegs above, and having amazing damage - they should hopefully be taken down a notch ortwo.

    7.) Warrior versus cleric - Even though there's no arena, in most MMOs 1 healer > 1 DPS trying to burst them down. That said, the class HAS the tools to keep someone locked down. Deep sab can easily do it, 3x Blast + 1x Ember + 1x Splinter -> Blinding powder -> Cocktail -> Silencing gas -> rapid setup + blast. That should be MORE than enough damage to kill pretty much anything. Is this overpowered? Yes, yes it is. This should be nerfed.

    8.) MM - The spec is not what it used to be. I remember back in beta, in Black Garden I would always beeline for the powerups, pop hit and run and mow down three people - this was overpowered. Now, I can go and... get a class to 40% with cooldowns. MM was indeed overly nerfed, but if I had to pick between "balanced" and "broken" I'd pick balanced in terms of describing the balanced.

  4. #4
    Champion
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    Can someone link me to the source of these changes?

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by BullStick View Post
    B) In the case of a Rogue vs Cleric: by the time that the 5th combo point is build up, the cleric is already aware that you are attacking him... All a cleric with any skill has to do is to place a couple HoT's and then DPS, the duration and power of HoTs in this game is absurd, A cleric can place any number of HoT's on himself/herself and manage to outlast MOST classes in 1v1 combat. Although this is not the appropriate thread i feel a very viable and simple fix for this is to remove the cleric's ability to wear chain armor and either entirely remove HoT's from the game replacing them with more MP efficient instant heals. This would allow for a cleric to focus on healing one target at a time, outside of group heals, While the current situation seems to be that the Cleric can cast 2-3 AoE HoT's and then focus on DPS? Remove Cleric DPS and give them s'more buffs! or debuffs! or CC! make them a cleric! not a mage with greater heals.

    Any How guys thats my 2 cents, TEAR IT UP.
    All Clerics would need have points into the Warden soul to achieve this and not all Clerics use the Warden soul as part of their DPS spec.

    Clerics already have instant self-cast heals which are very efficient if they have the Justicar soul and/or the Sentinel Soul.

    Preventing a Cleric from wearing Chain armor is not a viable solution given that many of the Rogue souls, including the PvP one, have armor penetration abilities.

    Cleric DPS is no where comparable to a Mage.

    Though I do agree Static Shot should root for the duration regardless of damage dealt.
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  6. #6
    Rift Chaser Khroul's Avatar
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    Here is my 2 cents.

    Currently, Melee Rogues are worthless in PVE. Plain and simple. There isn't a simple fix for this, they'd have to redesign every boss in the game.

    What does that mean for melee? They need to redesign these Soul trees. Hard.

    A.)All Avoidance / Pure damage mitigation / Endurance Talents should be moved to the first tier of every tree. So that the Riftstalker tree can go 51 points deep, and still pick up the necessary tanking talents (Bladedancer tree, I'm looking at you)

    B.)All tree's should be designed with this in mind. Players are not to be penalized for speccing 51 points into a tree. That means each tree, should supply ample utilities. That includes one CC break, one CC, one Slow/Snare, one Gap closer/creator, and some sort of super 51pt talent. With knowledge that the last 15 points will likely be put into a PVP soul, without reliance on the PVP soul, since farming the PVP ranks is tedious and painful for those without proper utility.

    C.)All trees should have a talent/buff/stance that increases their efficiency with more points in that tree. Much like Guardian Phase. (NB increases Fire/Death Damage, Sin Increases physical / bleed damage done, BD increases avoidance, Ranger increases Pet damage, MM increases Ranged Damage, Bard increases healing/buffs, Sabo increases charges damage, RS=guardian phase, Inf reduces damage from AOE, Only one of these stances should be able to be on at a time, these are just examples and could change.. These could also be used to balance class damage output a little easier.)

    D.)Permanent stealth should be attainable by all Rogue souls, without being rank 5 Prestige. What is the point of being a Rogue if you aren't invisible.

    E.)Ranged Rogues should have Ranged Stealth Openers, deep in the tree's.

    F.)Each tree should have a valuable 0 point talent / buff / defensive CD that makes it a viable choice.

    G.)MixMashed tree's should be feasible aswell. Those of us who are not Prestige rank 5, can get more damage/utility from speccing ~32/26/8 With that in mind, Nightblades healing debuff is a very required talent for Rogues. It should be lower in the tree so that it is accessible with < 10 points.

    H.) Rogue CP's should stack on the Rogue.

    I.)Damage needs to scale better with gear, currently AP/weapon damage does almost nothing. It's all about spec ATM, which means there are very few feasible specs to play.

    J.)Riftstalker is a really cool tree. But right now it's not really designed well. When you are leveling, you need damage, and none of the tanks really have any mitigation to speak of in the first place. The bottom of this tree should have all of the damage/mobility talents, and the top of the tree should have more raw mitigation / avoidance. The Rogue shouldn't have to use 3 different finishers before having mitigation/avoidance. Rogues take a ton of damage in the beginning of a fight if their buffs aren't up because of this. So if you move all of the true tanking talents higher in the tree, where DPS specs can't really get them, then you can have passively tough Rogue Tanks, which are on par with the other tanks. You also would need to condense the DPS talents into 2 tiers, This would free up a large amount of points higher in the tree for more avoidance / tools, to assist in how well Riftstalkers scale in higher tiers.

    That is where I would start
    Last edited by Khroul; 03-23-2011 at 09:19 AM.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    all i want as rogue is to put the serpent strike a lvl 31-35 skill, in order to have a semblance of burst and we can put more than 15 points into another soul

  8. #8
    Shadowlander
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    oh and i would like 5% more base crit on all rogues, why ? just read at mages and cleric pvp soul : -15% crit and -15% physical damages, if u dont put 5 points into sin and 5 points into ranger you dont even have 20% crit means really 5% crit on those targets, it's not enough at all

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    Awesome a very quick replies and im stoked to see its already begun, everyone is keeping the thread nice and neat thanks guys!

    If you claim its part of game mechanics to have rogues not hold combo points, please provide a reason WHY, dont just simply say "thats how it is supposed to be" because i disagree, most other MMO's a rogue can start of with high tier dmg and then DPS to counter HoTs then again burst dmg to finish off, this is exceedingly difficult to do in Rift.

    Yes i realize some of the changes are extreme, however does not merit an entirely different game, just a different style. And by bringing up those problems i really didnt expect a total overhaul of the cleric or warrior class. but rogue does need some serious inspection.

    what i meant by % damage scaling:

    If you have played or even looked at the warrior tree, you can see that their skill much like ours are x to y damage plus weapon damage. HOWEVER it is typically +120%-180% weapon damage. Where as a rogue skill would read more like 90-120 dmg on top of weapon damage. The bonus with the percentage dmg skills is that the slightest increase in base DMG of your weapon, would increase damage much much more for a warrior than for a rogue. since our skills are set damage. in example you may have a weapon that does 100 damage STRAIGHT your skills would be easily translated as 90-120 dmg + 100 weapon dmg. while a warrior would be multiplying their weapon base dmg by the skill dmg percentage. Im not sure how the other passives that any class can tech into would affect this. (such as physical attack increased by 2/4/6/9/10% but it can be assumed this would contribute generously)

    My argument for carrying combo points was not specifically for bard, that was just an example of a rogue support class that could be parallel with some of the buffs a warrior uses which also require combo points.

    I will continue to stand by my belief that rogue Combo Points should carry over, its terribly annoying as a mark/rang to build up combo points, we attack slower than the melee rogues so building up to 5 can be a pain and often targets are down by other players before we can effectively use the finishers.

    An example: I frequently crit with Swift Shot maybe 250-350 DMG depending on your armor class. maybe to crit with a finisher is not so often but it still happens. a finisher such as Hasted Shot, or Rapid Shot might crit for 900 or if i use deadeye 1200+ dmg. My point is that these are crucial burst dmg skills, and their dmg does not overcome the instant cast instant cooldown of the combo builders, it almost makes the finishers not worth using, outside of the beneficial buffs they provide.

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khroul View Post
    E.)Ranged Rogues should have Ranged Stealth Openers, deep in the tree's.
    That is where I would start
    Dark Malady.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo View Post
    oh and i would like 5% more base crit on all rogues, why ? just read at mages and cleric pvp soul : -15% crit and -15% physical damages, if u dont put 5 points into sin and 5 points into ranger you dont even have 20% crit means really 5% crit on those targets, it's not enough at all
    I agree with this as well, i cap out around 40% crit rate. so maybe with my build -15% isnt so devastating, but i build around crit. so in a way it is. and as Timo says here unless u spec into the sin/ran tree for +10% crit its kinda killing our DPS to give clerics such an amazing crit mitigation. maybe change this skill to -15% crit dmg taken, instead of -15% crit rate

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    I have to reconsider what i said before, as Rogue PVP tree gets huge Armor piercing. altogether rogue pvp tree is pretty impressive.

    i would say though that Rogues should run faster than the other classes. this would make kiting easier, and its also logical.

    Warriors wearing heavy armor should not run as fast as a rogue in light

    mage/clerics should run slower because they specialize in magical not physical strengths, yet faster than warriors for their wearing cloth still.

    most games adopt this idea, just makes sense that someone wearing 300 lbs of armor shouldn't run as fast as the guy in Levi Jeans.

  13. #13
    Rift Chaser Khroul's Avatar
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    For Assassins Specifically--
    This is what I would change.

    A.)Get rid of Assassinate / Backstab. (Lets get real, the only way these moves will be viable is if you're able to 2-3 shot players, and there is never going to be an MMO ever again, with Melee Rogues that can jump out of stealth and 2shot someone, that ended in Burning Crusades. Mages/Clerics would QQ constantly, and the Rogue population would skyrocket, eventually causing Warfronts to be very boring as 100% of the population would become invisible) It's also not practical to be behind your target in PVP. As soon as players figured out that Backstab hurt, they would start strafing, and you'd never actually get to backstab anyone. Ambush/Backstab is just a thing of the past. I'm sorry, but it is, it's never coming back. That's a reality all of us need to accept. People don't want to get 2shot by invisible players, they always cry about it, just because we're invisible. They would cry harder about Rogues 2shotting them, than Warriors 2shotting them. Just because they can see the Warrior charging at them.

    B.)Assassins need some additional means of increasing their bleed/poison/physical damage. Assassins also need some serious help dealing with healers. Furthermore Assassins need more utility.
    I would design the Assassin around DoT's / Debuffs, that actually matter. I would design the class to be all about hit and run. Whoever gets jumped by an Assassin shouldn't be easy to keep alive from a healer standpoint either.

    Bleeds and poison duration and damage increases when the target moves.

    I would grant Assassins the following Poisons.


    Purging Poison - DoT that stacks up to 5 times dealing X damage. Each stack has a 5% chance to remove a HoT / Buff from the target per tick.
    Capsaicin - Causes excruciating pain reducing movement speed by 50% and causing the target to black out for 3 seconds whenever healed.
    Unstable toxin - Poisons the target dealing X damage over time, If dispelled, silences the dispeller for 5 seconds.

    These poisons would be 40+ points in the tree and the 51 point talent would be the ability to put up to (4-6) Poisons on your blades.

    Serpent Strike would replace Backstab in the Tree, and Assassinate would be replaced by a stealth ranged slow that does not pull the rogue out of stealth.

    This way, Assassins could jump out of stealth, Lace their target with bleeds, and ****. Also makes the player being attacked think twice about herpaderp running around. The Player afflicted, isn't instantly killed, and has a chance to be saved if being healed / dispelled by multiple people. And in 1v1 fights, if the player kills the rogue fast enough they can sit and eat before they die from dots.

    That fixes the need for gap closers, creates a unique playstyle that maximizes on hit and run tactics, Doesn't wind up with players getting 2shot, doesn't gimp Sins without a true healing debuff. Numbers would need to be tweaked to make sure someone could actually keep the person alive though. haha, but I think it would be in line with some of the caster debuffs.


    __________________________________________________ ______________________

    Regarding Dark Malady -- I meant an ability that uses your ranged weapon. Something unique, more than just +damage boost for x seconds.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khroul View Post
    I would grant Assassins the following Poisons.


    Purging Poison - DoT that stacks up to 5 times dealing X damage. Each stack has a 5% chance to remove a HoT / Buff from the target per tick.
    Capsaicin - Causes excruciating pain reducing movement speed by 50% and causing the target to black out for 3 seconds whenever healed.
    Unstable toxin - Poisons the target dealing X damage over time, If dispelled, silences the dispeller for 5 seconds.

    These poisons would be 40+ points in the tree and the 51 point talent would be the ability to put up to (4-6) Poisons on your blades..
    Where did you decide the name/description of these poisons.

    Isnt it enough that malicious strike is a 70% snare that can be spammed?

    i agree that sin needs help, you would have to seriously change the game to allot for a sin that could 2 shot a robe class, however there are still games that a dagger CAN 2 or even 1 shot a player, and it is not overly populated with daggers because there are group oriented buffs that reduce the likelyhood of this happening, and battle rez makes it inconsequential if a single person in a group is quickly taken down. you could just res, get the player up and the dagger cannot return to stealth to repeat the ambush because of a long stealth cooldown after succesful skills, or the sin is in combat.

    i do agree that it would be nice to allow for DPS classes not only rogue to somehow cancel HoTs and buffs. its annoying to see 5-6 DPS focus fire 1 toon, and cannot take him down because there is a healer present, and i stated before, because of the power of HoTs a cleric in this situation could cast 2-3 hots and then DPS or debuff.

  15. #15
    Shadowlander
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    I would change rogues so that I don't have to learn how to play a particular class, instead, the class should play how I personally envision that class playing out.

    For example, I think Assassins should be able to tank. They should change the Assassin so that I can tank with it instead of me changing to a class that already does that. Until this happens, Rift sucks and I'm unsubbing.
    Last edited by Gaslov; 03-23-2011 at 10:29 AM.

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