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Thread: The "true" problem about Saboteurs and a possible solution!

  1. #1
    Champion Siveon's Avatar
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    Lightbulb The "true" problem about Saboteurs and a possible solution!

    First of i just wanted to point out that this is not the usual "saboteurs deal too much dmg its OP" because lets face it that is not true.
    Currently the saboteurs got 3 problem:
    1. all charges of the same type stack and blow as a single one, so if it crits the sheer amount of damage is too high because it would be the same as all 5 charges(+1 from Charge booster) critted together.
    2. Since adding charges deals no damage and it all comes down to a single hit, it gives the soul a too big of an advantage in pvp because there is little to be done about it until it actually hit you thus making the soul "OP" by the way it was designed and not by the actual damage it does.
    3. anything other then charges(land mines, traps and bombs) does horrible damage.

    I honestly have much more fun while playing with bomb traps and mines then playing with charges but i am forced to use them if i want to play as a saboteur this makes having that soul a 1 trick pony.

    My advice/solution for this soul would be to:
    1. Traps and mines are much harder to use because one needs to lure the target to them so they should considerably(a lot) more damage then what they do, specially the mines which are a top tier talent.
    2. Bombs damage is too low considering some can be avoided(chemical bomb), and pretty much all of them have some nice decent cool-down so their damage should be increased.
    3. Charges should blow separately and not as a whole, this will maintain the same DPS but it will reduce the "OMG" factor.
    4. Damage from charges should be reduced to be on par with the increased damage in points 1 and 2.

    I think that these changes would give a lot more variety to the soul and overall make the gameplay much more fun.

    Constructive criticism is welcomed.
    Sincerely, Siveon.
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  2. #2
    Rift Disciple weker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siveon View Post
    First of i just wanted to point out that this is not the usual "saboteurs deal too much dmg its OP" because lets face it that is not true.
    Currently the saboteurs got 3 problem:
    1. all charges of the same type stack and blow as a single one, so if it crits the sheer amount of damage is too high because it would be the same as all 5 charges(+1 from Charge booster) critted together.
    2. Since adding charges deals no damage and it all comes down to a single hit, it gives the soul a too big of an advantage in pvp because there is little to be done about it until it actually hit you thus making the soul "OP" by the way it was designed and not by the actual damage it does.
    3. anything other then charges(land mines, traps and bombs) does horrible damage.

    I honestly have much more fun while playing with bomb traps and mines then playing with charges but i am forced to use them if i want to play as a saboteur this makes having that soul a 1 trick pony.

    My advice/solution for this soul would be to:
    1. Traps and mines are much harder to use because one needs to lure the target to them so they should considerably(a lot) more damage then what they do, specially the mines which are a top tier talent.
    2. Bombs damage is too low considering some can be avoided(chemical bomb), and pretty much all of them have some nice decent cool-down so their damage should be increased.
    3. Charges should blow separately and not as a whole, this will maintain the same DPS but it will reduce the "OMG" factor.
    4. Damage from charges should be reduced to be on par with the increased damage in points 1 and 2.

    I think that these changes would give a lot more variety to the soul and overall make the gameplay much more fun.

    Constructive criticism is welcomed.
    Sincerely, Siveon.
    good post
    all i can say is the overall damge should not crit but each attack should
    sooooo each bomb = 100 and crit 250 explosion = 200
    bomb 1 100+
    bomb 2 100+
    bomb 3 crit 250+
    bomb 4 100+
    bomb 5 100+
    explosion 200
    = 950

    rather then

    bomb 1 100+
    bomb 1 100+
    bomb 2 100+
    bomb 3 100+
    bomb 4 100+
    bomb 5 100+
    explosion 200
    = 700 X 2.5 (random crit bonus) =1750

    having burst damge from bombs is fine but I would not like to lose all my hp due to one lucky hit
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  3. #3
    Telaran Lucinde's Avatar
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    Good post, but I have to disagree with a few points.

    First, the one big hit from a random critical can be devastating, I know. However, this is how the saboteur kills. If a Sab had to stack 5 charges, detonate, and then repeat this to kill targets, they would have to be targetting some really stupid players, because anyone with some sense will not allow this to happen.

    Second, charges can be removed, or a smart player can avoid the detonation by either charging the Sab, moving out of range, or hiding so that LoS is blocked. If a player can achieve this, the Sab will be dead before the 5-charge detonation, trust me.

    Third, I agree, the traps and Bombs don't compare to the charges, but players focus too much on raw DPS and what does the most damage, and fail to see the utility in many talents. At higher levels, it can take some time for a Sab to kill a target without crits. Sometimes, after a round of 5 charges, the target's health may be down enough to use Carpet bombing. This is quick damage, even though it isn't optimal. It can also be used to try and interrupt a caster as the time it takes to throw and blow up is pretty quick (though not as quick as some Sabs would like). The traps also have their uses, and I agree that they are fun to use.

    Especially in the higher levels, I don't see the "problem". In earlier levels, I admit I was scratching my head and wondering how I was able to get away with the things I was doing. But I spoke with a guildmate who was already high level and he told me exactly what I am experiencing now. Saboteur is not overpowered, it is just a radically different style of Rogue with great utility and control of the battlefield.
    Last edited by Lucinde; 03-23-2011 at 06:00 AM.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Vihar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucinde View Post
    Second, charges can be removed, or a smart player can avoid the detonation by either charging the Sab, moving out of range, or hiding so that LoS is blocked. If a player can achieve this, the Sab will be dead before the 5-charge detonation, trust me.
    Yes and no.

    Charges can be placed much faster than they can be removed.

    A player spamming dispels on themselves, for example, cannot dispel as fast as the sab can place the charges, That player is a goner...dispel or not.

    Just clarifying that.
    Otherwise known as Morganlefae

  5. #5
    Plane Walker
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    corect me if i'm wrong haven't looked into this.

    might it be an intresting option to keep the damage as it is and make some cleansing spells able to remove charges ?
    ( if a person has 4 charges on them one clensing spell would reduce this to 3)

    effects :
    lowering the DSP a bit in pvp but hardly have an effect on pve ( monsterd don't often dispell de buffs)
    making in more intresting for healer/support classes to look for charges they can remove to prevent damage

  6. #6
    Telaran Lucinde's Avatar
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    Vihar, you are correct. I was thinking more in terms of group situations, not 1 vs 1. There are likely going to be a few casters who have the ability to remove the charges. Even then, it shouldn't be expected that all the charges are going to be removed.

    At level 37, I've already accepted that my Sab is not going to be the big damage dealer it used to be. There are high DPS classes running around with more survivability, with more damage output, but none have the utility of the Saboteur. I just hope they don't take this away from the class.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple snekadid's Avatar
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    there are alot of problems witht he arguement and some good points.
    1) think of it this way, yes if the charge crits its like all 5 critting, which is really cool and powerful when it happens. but i havent seen any sabs with over 50% crit which means that their chances of not critting 5 times in a row is alot lower then their chances of critting.

    also at 50 even if i used all 5 blast charges<i only do this when i plan to use annihilation bomb combo, i do way more with 5 different charges then i do with just blast charges otherwise> and it crit, and detonate crit, it shouldn't kill anyone at full health and at least 45+ gear and thats after popping my damage and crit procs from rift stalker. sabs are only a danger to people that cant heal 1 on 1 or people in WFs not getting healed.

    2) like the above said, there are a ridiculous amount of counters. sure i can add charges faster then you can dispel. however your dispel doesn't eat up your mana in 6 uses. even if i beat your dispel spam to 5 charges you will heal up in 1-2 casts and i wont be able to replace the 5 charges in even twice the time without you dispeling more, and in there you can dot me and i cant heal.

    i truly dont understand a healer losing to a sab of equal or even higher level one on one, we should only be able to win if there's alot going on and you arent paying attention.

    3) is for the most part true, without the 2 point talent after it i wouldnt even dream of putting a talent into annihilation bomb. i only use the basic explosive and adhesive bombs, one for kiting the other to kill critters or finish off something that has little to no health and would otherwise be a pain to kill<charges take time and energy i probly dont have and dont want to wait for to kill something that would do me damage in the meantime>.
    landmines are more for denial than damage, the knockbacks great for keeping people away though having some damage would be nice. but i will agree that the traps suck except for booby trap. the bleed traps damage is too low for something you need to lure people over and that they can see easily, and the other 2 suck. booby for pvp isnt very good either, but its main use is PVE, i can stand by the tank and spam it for a 300+ aoe to everything around me every second.

    lowering damage on charges isnt a answer, my bladedancer/assassin spec can do more damage in 5 combo points than the charges and isnt nearly as squishy. the high burst would be the only reason to play sab as its damage in nonAOE situations is actualy kinda low. I mean in all seriousness how many people are actualy losing one on one to a sab that wasnt already at a disadvantage?
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  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Sab is fine for pvp dont cry too much
    u doest need any longer as mage/warri to down a enemy than a sab

  9. #9
    Ascendant Vihar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snekadid View Post
    there are alot of problems witht he arguement and some good points.
    1) think of it this way, yes if the charge crits its like all 5 critting, which is really cool and powerful when it happens. but i havent seen any sabs with over 50% crit which means that their chances of not critting 5 times in a row is alot lower then their chances of critting.

    also at 50 even if i used all 5 blast charges<i only do this when i plan to use annihilation bomb combo, i do way more with 5 different charges then i do with just blast charges otherwise> and it crit, and detonate crit, it shouldn't kill anyone at full health and at least 45+ gear and thats after popping my damage and crit procs from rift stalker. sabs are only a danger to people that cant heal 1 on 1 or people in WFs not getting healed.

    2) like the above said, there are a ridiculous amount of counters. sure i can add charges faster then you can dispel. however your dispel doesn't eat up your mana in 6 uses. even if i beat your dispel spam to 5 charges you will heal up in 1-2 casts and i wont be able to replace the 5 charges in even twice the time without you dispeling more, and in there you can dot me and i cant heal.

    i truly dont understand a healer losing to a sab of equal or even higher level one on one, we should only be able to win if there's alot going on and you arent paying attention.

    3) is for the most part true, without the 2 point talent after it i wouldnt even dream of putting a talent into annihilation bomb. i only use the basic explosive and adhesive bombs, one for kiting the other to kill critters or finish off something that has little to no health and would otherwise be a pain to kill<charges take time and energy i probly dont have and dont want to wait for to kill something that would do me damage in the meantime>.
    landmines are more for denial than damage, the knockbacks great for keeping people away though having some damage would be nice. but i will agree that the traps suck except for booby trap. the bleed traps damage is too low for something you need to lure people over and that they can see easily, and the other 2 suck. booby for pvp isnt very good either, but its main use is PVE, i can stand by the tank and spam it for a 300+ aoe to everything around me every second.

    lowering damage on charges isnt a answer, my bladedancer/assassin spec can do more damage in 5 combo points than the charges and isnt nearly as squishy. the high burst would be the only reason to play sab as its damage in nonAOE situations is actualy kinda low. I mean in all seriousness how many people are actualy losing one on one to a sab that wasnt already at a disadvantage?
    A chloromancer spamming dispel on themselves isn't healing or DPSing anyone during that time, and they are STILL going to take the hit.

    A Cleric spamming dispel on themselves isn't healing, and they are STILL going to take the hit.

    In effect, they are left with a choice...

    Do their job, and die in a few seconds.

    Don't do their job, spam dispel on themselves, and die more slowly.

    I think you all are overlooking that part. While placing charges you are neutralizing them if they try to counter it, or you are blowing them up if they try and ignore the charges and do their job.

    It's not "not paying attention", as most people say.

    Most players know when charges are being placed on them...it's obvious....but there is nothing you can do about the inevitable BOOM! anyway, so you may as well try and help your party as long as you can and hope you survive it, and heal after the fact.

    I find it odd that people are complaining that the charges can be dispelled, when that is just a delaying tactic that precludes doing anything else, and won't stop the charges anyway.
    Otherwise known as Morganlefae

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple snekadid's Avatar
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    Except your ignoring that fact that post 20, you will NEVER EVER one shot anyone as a saboteur.

    infact even with crits they will only do a bit more than half your health after 6 seconds. and thats ignoring shields and damage resists. I find it hard to believe your playing at 50 with your statements. let the sab detonate, then take 2 seconds to heal it. I have seen it in action. if it took 6 seconds to cast a spell you would expect it to do that much damage if it crit.

    It really is not paying attention, if you kill the sab the set up was wasted and you took no damage. if your prepared for the detonation to heal yourself, you just undid what he did in half the time. sabs are squishy and have few recourses if confronted in combat. If the sab went full 51 points so that he can hit you twice in a row once every minute, id say he deserves that kill since his usefullness was just cut down.

    If you are seriously complaining that you can be killed in pvp i just want to ask you to close the window. I am 100% serious, being upset about being able to be killed in PVP is the stupidest thing I hear in these forums. you are not being rolled, you are not being stomped. you can heal through pretty much everything and dont like it that you have a counter.

    grow up, theres a game play mechanic out there that counters basicaly every play type. its not even sabs being a healers counter since healers are able to, and easily, fight sabs. your upset because going from half life to dead sucks. guess what, half the specs can do that in the same amount of time, you just werent watching and ate the 6 seconds of damage all at once.
    THE TRANSITION TO REAL LIFE
    PVP:I joined the military to snipe some punks but everyone cries too much when i team kill.>_<
    PVE:so I decided to go hunting, which was pretty fun till i accidentally right clicked a critter, freaking little girl wouldn't stop crying about her cat.
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  11. #11
    Ascendant Vihar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snekadid View Post
    It really is not paying attention, if you kill the sab the set up was wasted and you took no damage. if your prepared for the detonation to heal yourself, you just undid what he did in half the time. sabs are squishy and have few recourses if confronted in combat. If the sab went full 51 points so that he can hit you twice in a row once every minute, id say he deserves that kill since his usefullness was just cut down.

    If you are seriously complaining that you can be killed in pvp i just want to ask you to close the window. I am 100% serious, being upset about being able to be killed in PVP is the stupidest thing I hear in these forums. you are not being rolled, you are not being stomped. you can heal through pretty much everything and dont like it that you have a counter.

    grow up, theres a game play mechanic out there that counters basicaly every play type. its not even sabs being a healers counter since healers are able to, and easily, fight sabs. your upset because going from half life to dead sucks. guess what, half the specs can do that in the same amount of time, you just werent watching and ate the 6 seconds of damage all at once.
    Why does everyone resort to the "You svck why don;t you just quit" comments when someone puts up a counterargument.

    I don't complain about sabs being OP...in fact, I never stated anything about them being OP or underpowered or anything like that.

    Where have I said "I can be killed in PVP QQ"? I didn't. Nice strawman.

    BTW, I am not a healer. Again, nice strawman.

    I am just pointing out the falsehoods being proposed here about being able to neutralize sab charges with a simple 1 button skill. They can't. That's the only point I made.

    That and the fact that most players know they are being charged up. It is often better to do your job as long as you can than to allow yourself to be neutralized in a fight you can't win with dispels.

    And that, for some reason, makes you RAGE? Seriously?

    I would also point out that your comparison to casting is a poor one. A sab can move when placing charges. A caster cannot.

    Just saying.
    Otherwise known as Morganlefae

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple snekadid's Avatar
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    you also couldnt add seconds onto peoples spells but thats besides the point, your removing the accusation you made, you did complain. you should read what you post. i mean seriously let me put it in quotation marks for you since you dont read your own posts.

    "Charges can be placed much faster than they can be removed.
    A player spamming dispels on themselves, for example, cannot dispel as fast as the sab can place the charges, That player is a goner...dispel or not."

    this is you stating that not only is .5 of a second is "much faster" but any player that was hit by a 5 charge detonate is "a goner". you also ignored the post you were commenting on, taking the part where dispels was mentioned as one of many ways to avoid the apparent instant death of the vile sabs along with many other methods that can be used in addition to dispeling and tried to twist your response to make it seem standing there dispeling is the only way to avoid the aformentioned horror.

    and i never said "you suck""l2p" or even "lawl", and your argument was just what you claimed it wasnt. and its even hurts your point more since your talking as if you have experience with the scenario from either side and now you say you dont. you made false charges and i called you on them, nice try.
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  13. #13
    Plane Walker Zantetsuken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snekadid View Post
    1) think of it this way, yes if the charge crits its like all 5 critting, which is really cool and powerful when it happens. but i havent seen any sabs with over 50% crit which means that their chances of not critting 5 times in a row is alot lower then their chances of critting.
    This doesn't make a lot of sense, but the maths is easy to do.

    Lets say as a Sab, you have a 30% crit chance. Charge damage is added together, then subject to a single hit/crit roll. They never miss, can't be dodged or parried, so there are only 2 possible outcomes. The effect when Charge damage crits is the equivalent of each charge critting on their own.

    For any other Rogue (lets use Assassin, with Backstab as the builder, 30% crit chance), the chances of using a single ability 5 times, and having them all crit is:

    0.3 x 0.3 x 0.3 x 0.3 x 0.3 x 100% = 0.24%

    For a Sab, the chance is 30%, or 30 times out of every 100.

    For an Assassin to have all 5 Backstabs crit 30 times out of every 100, he would need:

    (5th root of 0.3) x 100% = 78.6% crit chance on his backstab.

    0.786 x 0.786 x 0.786 x 0.786 x 0.786 x 100% = 30% which is the same as Sabs currently have, so the mechanics of Charges having a single hit/crit roll is the equivalent of giving them a 78.6% crit chance on their combo builders.

    Charges need to have separate hit/crit rolls, same as every other ability, the effect on damage output ie DPS wouldn't change over a long period, the only effect would be the chances of having all 5 crit would be really small (0.24%, same as an Assassin with 30% crit chance) and so the high damage spikes would occur less often, but the low damage from when you don't crit will become higher as whole. It's basically redistribution of damage, taking some away from the top end, and adding it to the bottom. Normalization in other words.

    Also, Charges are physical damage, so they need to be changed to be able to miss, be dodged or parried, same as any other physical attack. Once those changes are made, then damage can be tuned to bring it in line with everyone else, although I suspect it wont be necessary.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantetsuken View Post
    Charges need to have separate hit/crit rolls, same as every other ability, .
    Patch 1.1 is on the alpha patcher at the moment and this is one of the sab changes that have been implemented (each charge hits separately and is subject to its own hit/crit roll). IE a 5 charge detonate would give you 5 different hits. Some might crit some might not

  15. #15
    Plane Walker Zantetsuken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fezza View Post
    Patch 1.1 is on the alpha patcher at the moment and this is one of the sab changes that have been implemented (each charge hits separately and is subject to its own hit/crit roll). IE a 5 charge detonate would give you 5 different hits. Some might crit some might not
    Ah, didn't know that, I only looked on Leakerz.net, which seems to be slacking a bit these days. I'll have another look around, saves making suggestions that are already being implemented. Cheers
    Zantetsuken - 50 Warrior - Firesand EU RP-PvP
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