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Thread: Bladedancer - The confused DPS that wants to tank

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    Rift Disciple Absconditus's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Bladedancer - The confused DPS that wants to tank

    Let me first start off with, I must bow and tip my hat at Trion for adding such a fun melee Rogue Soul. A bunch of rather decent self-buffs, a charge-closer that roots the target so you can smack up a Maim to snare them and prevent too much kiting, a spell-interrupting silence (if used correctly) and an overall fun to play Soul. But there is a problem. This is a DPS Soul as I see it, but it wants to be the one getting hit. That is where an issue arises, as the Bladedancers lack the ability to both effectively tank, and also to hold the hate safely.

    When taking the whole Soul into consideration, it sort of feels a little lost, like it's not entirely sure if it wants to be a damage dealer or a tank. Both for PvE and PvP group interaction, this mechanic is flawed. It works alright for solo PvE content and the odd solo PvP encounter - but when you get to the flesh of an MMO wich is to play with others, it just lacks the shine to be "viable". In PvE group and raid content, why would you have the Bladedancer be the focus of the enemy? In PvP, how can you make certain you are the focus of your enemies? Not to mention the fact that the Rogue PvP equipment comes with no Dodge and Parry stat boosts, other than the Dexterity and boosts through base stats granted--and really, if you are assuming the role of a DPS, why would you go for the PvE tank equipment over increasing damage through Critical hits and Attack Power? I have also yet to find Dodges and Parries occuring often enough in PvP for it to be considered fine as-is. I get the very occational Dodge and Parry, but most of the time I am running back from the graveyard instead of having used an ability that might have helped me turn the tide a bit during a fight.
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    I propose this Soul gets a rather "hefty" re-design. Gone would be the mechanics based on dodging and parrying your opponents, and in their place comes reactive abilities that are based on both critically hitting your opponent, or your opponent parrying and/or dodging you. In other words, alot of the skills would be switched around, so that instead of you parrying and dodging "them", they parry and dodge you.
    • Quick Reflexes could be switched out for a Critical Hit (chance or damage) +5%, 1% per point invested.
    • Reprisal could be worked into either being usable after dealing a Critical Hit attack, or when the enemy Dodge your Attack. This ability should obviously be possible to miss on your target.
    • Turn the Tide could be altered to give you a 10% more damage for 10s after a Critical hit.
    • Contra Tempo could be altered to grant you a 50% per point invested, chance of gaining an additional Combo Point on your next Combo Point generating ability if your target dodges or parries you.
    • As a twist, Disengage could be altered so that you can only use it, after you have been stunned yourself. That would be the ultimate revenge when you get stunned. I recommend lowering the duration to 3s if such a change were to be introduced.
    • Combat Pose sorely needs to be switched out. On all my other Rogue classes, I can't think of any single skills that just becomes completely obsolete after I level up, wich is the case with Bladedancer. There is absolutely no reason to use Combat Pose if you got Combat Preperation. I suggest to move Combat Preperation down to Combat Pose level, and replacing the 18 skill buff with something different. Perhaps something that would make the class useful for buffing their raids as well? Currently this class seems to lack anything that another class can't bring to the table in a better form. Warriors can buff both Strength and Dex at the same time to the raid, and that at 12 points more than the Bladedancer can. The Critical Hit chance increased by 5% from using Dauntless Strike becomes a waste of Combo Points, as Bards can buff both Critical Hit and Spell Critical Hit at the same time. I wouldn't mind having something buffable that actually feels useful. Because Combat Preperation sure doesn't in a group scenario.
    • As the class would be a more focused DPS, False Blade and Improved False Blade would probably benefit from being switched out so it no longer feels like the Soul is confused. Perhaps switch it out with Attack Power gains on usage and Improved granting additional Hit chance.
    • Combat Culmination could drop the Dodge and Parry percentages and rather increase the Critical Hit and Hit chance buffs for a total of +5% to both besides the refunded Energy.

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    Obviously I don't sit on all the answers, but I believe at least I am making myself clear enough on how this class could be re-designed, so that it no longer feels like the joke of the Rogue callings and are rather brought up ever so slightly to be more competetive in both PvE and PvP. Of course there are also people out there who are in love with the class just the way it is, and I respect that fully. I won't quit the game due to a change like this not happening, but I think it would be benefitial to this Soul. And while you might argue it makes a good Riftstalker PvE tank off-Soul, I also think there are plenty other Souls that goes well with it, with both Bard and Ranger coming to mind. I would hope Trion takes it into consideration at least. And I am already confident there are other Bladedancer lovers out there that would have preferred if the class weren't reliant on being the target of incoming damage and on top of that dodge and parry it, to shine.
    Last edited by Absconditus; 03-22-2011 at 10:17 AM.

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    Hey i am confiused Blade dancer so can you please remove tanking talents from the tree so the non confused rogue tanks can't use my soul anymore right?
    Take your head out of the sand, changes to any tree will affect other builds, especially lower portions of them. Did you even both thinking what effect it will have on tanking rogues for example who take 5% dodge talent?

    You mention other tanking souls? ranger and bard g8, so now rogue tanks get to pick 2 side souls out of WHAT? oh right TWO soul. Hard choice there. Lets reduce rogue tanking to 1 build out of 3/4 because you are confused.
    Last edited by Deathfairy; 03-22-2011 at 10:19 AM.

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    Telaran
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    BD is made for leveling, at 50 I don't see any use for this soul. Trion really should look up to it.

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    Champion
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    I always loved this tree and would hate to see it made purely offensive making it worthless for soloing stuff. I always thought it might be a good idea to make it a "tank support" tree. For example, you can place some kinda buff on the tank that gives them x% of your dodge/parry and whenever they dodge/parry you can use your dodge/parry activated attacks. It would then do very solid dps as well as be helpful for the tank, which is pretty much unheard of for a melee spec to buff the tank, but I think its kind of a cool idea.

    If we just made all the defensive stuff, offensive, you just have a nightblade/sin clone :/

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    Not every soul will be optimal for every part of the game. It's just the way it is. If you try to make it so, you will end up removing everything that makes the souls unique.

    Bladedancer still has a place in PvP, solo PvE and as a sub-soul to RS for tanking. Or you could use it for raiding and stop obsessing about the optimal build. If your guild won't accept that, find a new guild, or at least use a different spec for raiding. We get 4 roles for a reason. You don't need 1 spec that can do everything.

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    Rift Disciple Absconditus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    Hey i am confiused Blade dancer so can you please remove tanking talents from the tree so the non confused rogue tanks can't use my soul anymore right?
    Take your head out of the sand, changes to any tree will affect other builds, especially lower portions of them. Did you even both thinking what effect it will have on tanking rogues for example who take 5% dodge talent?

    You mention other tanking souls? ranger and bard g8, so now rogue tanks get to pick 2 side souls out of WHAT? oh right TWO soul. Hard choice there. Lets reduce rogue tanking to 1 build out of 3/4 because you are confused.
    What's with the animosity in your reply? I am in no way "confused" and I said explicitly in the bottom of the topic post that I don't sit on all the answers and thus how to balance it - that would be for Trion to sort out. What I am saying, is that the Soul itself gives off an impression of being confused. It's a DPS Soul that wants to tank. It's nothing really hiding that fact. I might mention that it is not "my soul" either, although it probably would be if it weren't gimped by current semi-flawed mechanics. Also what does "g8" mean? Gate?

    A whole bunch of the better reactives and in example the damage buff relies on dodging and/or parrying your enemy. The fact that the Soul itself in a sense relies on either taking a choice between greater Dodge/Parry from gearing up in PvE tank gear, trading off a bunch of Attack Power and Critical Hit chance boosters, to me (and other Rogues I know), feels broken when it assumes the role of a damage dealer. And while it is perhaps ok to take a 5% Dodge into the Riftstalker build, I have never been able to efficiently rely on dodging the enemy attacks when I am tanking in the Lv.50 Experts. Nor is it the only soul that works with Riftstalker. Saboteur works nice with it too, Ranger and Bard as was covered, and I haven't experimented with other builds enough to say that it would pair alright with something else.

    Also please understand that I didn't say each and every point I covered needs to be addressed, specifically in the way that I wrote them. The Dodge could stay in Bladedancer, as there are the ability to get Critical Hit chance from Assassin on the side, that is something Trion would see for themselves. I just want Trion to consider altering it mainly so that you are no longer asking for being the target of damage in order to perform well in group scenarios, it just doesn't work well. That it works great for soloing easy foes doesn't quite cut it. The Soul feels broken, and I ain't alone in feeling that.

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    Rift Disciple Absconditus's Avatar
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    Woops, was spending too much time in the editing window; Also do note that I in no spot asked them to alter Side Steps, +50% Dodge chance for 15 seconds (wich is a good "oh shi--" defensive buff that most Souls have at least one of). It's not like changes like this would make it useless for a tank. Even so with reactives that can trigger if the tank misses on their targets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absconditus View Post
    What's with the animosity in your reply? I am in no way "confused" and I said explicitly in the bottom of the topic post that I don't sit on all the answers and thus how to balance it - that would be for Trion to sort out. What I am saying, is that the Soul itself gives off an impression of being confused. It's a DPS Soul that wants to tank. It's nothing really hiding that fact. I might mention that it is not "my soul" either, although it probably would be if it weren't gimped by current semi-flawed mechanics. Also what does "g8" mean? Gate?

    A whole bunch of the better reactives and in example the damage buff relies on dodging and/or parrying your enemy. The fact that the Soul itself in a sense relies on either taking a choice between greater Dodge/Parry from gearing up in PvE tank gear, trading off a bunch of Attack Power and Critical Hit chance boosters, to me (and other Rogues I know), feels broken when it assumes the role of a damage dealer. And while it is perhaps ok to take a 5% Dodge into the Riftstalker build, I have never been able to efficiently rely on dodging the enemy attacks when I am tanking in the Lv.50 Experts. Nor is it the only soul that works with Riftstalker. Saboteur works nice with it too, Ranger and Bard as was covered, and I haven't experimented with other builds enough to say that it would pair alright with something else.

    Also please understand that I didn't say each and every point I covered needs to be addressed, specifically in the way that I wrote them. The Dodge could stay in Bladedancer, as there are the ability to get Critical Hit chance from Assassin on the side, that is something Trion would see for themselves. I just want Trion to consider altering it mainly so that you are no longer asking for being the target of damage in order to perform well in group scenarios, it just doesn't work well. That it works great for soloing easy foes doesn't quite cut it. The Soul feels broken, and I ain't alone in feeling that.


    You clearly have not done your research on tanking. Sab = worthless 15% dex right now - 1.4% dodge oh yaaaaaaaaaa worthy 5 points there.

    BD gives 10% dodge, some reactive threat/combo points and dodge cooldown, which is very nice. It is a very solid 8 points spent for a tank. In fact i was arguing that BD needs a buff in terms of tanking to make it viable alternative to 51 RS. but that is just mho.

    Soul is broken? Dude what game are you playing? The Class is broken( outside tanking). Get with the program. The basic BD skills are better then other basic melee trees, as well they are fun with order requirements. I tried 1 heavy BD dps build it did ok numbers. I tried few Blade tempo builds they also did okish. I am not expert on melee rogue builds but i was breaking 500 with no gear when i tried it. Considering whole damn calling is broken it is pointless to compare damage of different builds just yet.

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    Telaran
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    I've been toying around with the idea of having the BD's dodge apply to surrounding allies as some kind of aura, or at least a portion of your dodge. That way, when a nearby ally dodges, you would proc your reprisal, strike back, disengage. I think that would give it some oomph in both PVP and PVE, what do you guys think?

    I have been speccing in and out of BD since early beta and its a great class to play, but you are right, its just not as viable in PVP/PVE as the other classes. It really shines solo for leveling, but once you hit 50 I doubt you'll see many BD main specs.

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    Sword of Telara Fasc's Avatar
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    If you're dead set on doing 51 points into Bladedancer, yes as a pure min/max you're going to lose some points to fluff skills that only proc off taking damage. Those CDs at the end though are pretty hefty ones and it remains to be seen how everything lines up. I really enjoy DPS on a BD, but they have a lot more uses than just raw PvE DPS.

    I played around with a half-hearted PvP build using Sin/BD with a bigger emphasis on BD and it was actually pretty fun going up against Warriors/Rogues. Things would fire off left and right and at times my health would barely move, and the damage while never too bursty, was very consistent and steady. With high Infiltrator I can see some well played BDs doing pretty well in the WFs.

    However, as Deathfairy is saying, right now a lot of cross-calling comparisons are utterly broken. Between the Armor Penetration bugs in both Saboteur and Paragon, as well as other things like Beastmaster scaling being wonky and dual-wield attacks working with 2-handers, and so on, there are bugs to be fixed before we start suggesting major redesigns, especially of Souls that are actually really damn cool as they are and serve some good purposes.

    You don't go deep BD to Tank, you supplement RS with BD stuff to Tank, and how much you supplement depends on the content you're doing with your gear and group make up. But you also go deep BD to DPS, solo, support, and PvP. The last thing I want is a Nightblade copy that does physical damage vs magical, but can be played exactly the same way.

    EDIT: Oh and the Combat Pose/Prep bullet point is pretty hilarious. Look at a host of other Souls outside of the Rogue Calling and you'll notice many get early single target buffs and later a group version of the same buff. Not every Soul has an equal number of root skills to unlock either so don't play the argument of "Pose eats up a valuable skill slot!" since it doesn't really fly.
    Last edited by Fasc; 03-22-2011 at 11:06 AM.
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    Blade Dancer is fantastic for multi-target PvE soloing, Rifting, Elites, etc. At 50, I expect it to still be very useful for farming, Rifting, etc. I'd be pretty thoroughly pissed if the changes you propose were implemented. If Blade Dancer doesn't do what YOU want, go use a different soul. That's where the animosity is coming from; you're proposing that Trion take a soul which is doing a job which plenty of people like and break that functionality in order to make the soul do something different you want. That's where the animosity is coming from.

  12. #12
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    i'm sorry but your wishlist is not cohesive with the spec design. The whole point of the class is to be a melee leather fighter that does not have top tier dps at the sacrafice of increased longevity thru dodge and parry. To simplify, you will do the most dps when you are being attacked and that is how the tree is designed. Every suggestion you propose is a straight dps increase at the loss of various mitigations the spec has or just doesn't make sense.

    Either you are confused on how the spec is actually supposed to perform in combat, what the design of the class from inception is supposed to be, or you would be better suited playing another tree. i think it is the 2nd reason since you want most of the "tanking" items removed from the tree for more dps, which is not how the class was designed.

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fasc View Post
    Oh and the Combat Pose/Prep bullet point is pretty hilarious. Look at a host of other Souls outside of the Rogue Calling and you'll notice many get early single target buffs and later a group version of the same buff. Not every Soul has an equal number of root skills to unlock either so don't play the argument of "Pose eats up a valuable skill slot!" since it doesn't really fly.
    I think they should just have Combat pose (6 points) as a group buff and then Combat prep (20 points) would have an additional buff such as "allows 50% of your dodge to be applied to allies within 5 meters - allowing you to proc Reprisal/Strike Back/Disengage when they dodge"

    That buff would allow it to stay in line with the Dodge/Parry aspect of the soul and give it a needed buff in a group setting.
    Last edited by Psomatose; 03-22-2011 at 11:18 AM.

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    Rift Disciple Pilfro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psomatose View Post
    I think they should just have Combat pose (6 points) as a group buff and then Combat prep (20 points) would have an additional buff such as "allows 50% of your dodge to be applied to allies within 5 meters - allowing you to proc Reprisal/Strike Back/Disengage when they dodge"

    That buff would allow it to stay in line with the Dodge/Parry aspect of the soul and give it a needed buff in a group setting.
    Only thing I would change is being able to put a dodge buff on one person in your party allowing your dodge/parry skills to proc when said person dodges/par.
    Buff the tank, he dodges your skills proc. Since the BD shoulndt be getting attacked in a true party, some skills are useless.


    WoW I should of read the post I commented on..
    Last edited by Pilfro; 03-22-2011 at 11:23 AM.

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    Rift Chaser Khroul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absconditus View Post
    SNIP
    Good post Abs, I've mentioned similar concerns a few times, but not as well laid out.

    I find it abysmally strange that a soul could be designed with such a... conflicted mechanism.
    Reprisal, Disengage and Contra Tempo are all terrible PVE DPS talents, because you as a DPS should never be dodging attacks. Then of course, these are also poor talents for most PVP encounters, because most PVP encounters are against attacks that can't be dodged or Parried. To Add to this, the Avoidance gained from this tree, passively is very low, and pretty much requires the rogue to hit Side-Steps to proc regularly.

    So what you wind up with, is partially worthless PVE spec, a Partially worthless PVP Spec, and all of the applications where these utilities could be really useful are too far in the tree to get as a tank.

    Its just very poorly designed. Questing is the only legitimate place for a BD spec, currently

    The Ability to parry spells would be interesting, especially if there was more Parry in the bottom of the tree for RS's to grab. It would also make the spec a little more viable against more than Rogues and Warriors. I'd also like to see additional means of proccing the reactives, outside dodging / parrying.
    Last edited by Khroul; 03-22-2011 at 11:28 AM.

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