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Thread: Sin vs War: Your design

  1. #1
    Rift Master
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    Default Sin vs War: Your design

    Hello rogues.

    I have seen many rogues complaining that warriors just wreck them badly. Warriors are all but surely on their way to some kind of nerf.

    I have also seen many sins say that if they catch a warrior from stealth bleed them and use slip away to reopen then they can easily kill them. There are videos in the rogue forum of a sin at 50 just destroying warriors... opening from stealth.

    So my honest question is how would you like it to be if you could have it the way you wanted it to be?

    I can see that it is not necessarily fun to have to use a two minute cd to win. The spec also does have the ability to hide and not engage when they don't want to though. What is the warrior 2 minute CD that counters yours? I would guess that the 10 minute cd heal does counter your 2 minute cd.

    If they buffed you so that even without the 2 minute cd you will win then when that is up it is an auto win. Do you think that if you don't open from stealth you should have a good chance to win? Seems like if this is the case then opening from stealth also becomes an auto win.

    I know you will say that classes are not balanced 1v1. Fine. That cuts both ways. Do you want to be the best 1v1 class? I am sure everyone does. Do you think you should be?

    How would you have the fight between war and sin go if you could balance it. What would you consider fair?

    I would like to see sin viability outside the 2 minute cd increased and then the viability of the 2 min cd reduced. I am not saying how to do that. Just what i would do. I would probably like to make sure that other classes/specs had a cd they could use to save them or equal the ground more than change the functionality of the rogue ability any.

    Your thoughts?

  2. #2
    Plane Touched Quilliam's Avatar
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    I think a sin that catches someone unaware (meaning sin comes up in stealth) should have more than a 50% chance of winning.

    The way it is now, this is not the case with anyone that has GEARED up (talking warrior) Clerics who simply pay attention or many mage builds now (no idea what they figured out at 50 but hey glad it's working. I think it's necro or chloro build maybe even warlock, I'm trying some combos and liking the results so far of where it could end up).

    All you have to do to stop a sin is have healing (and use it...) or mitigation or CC.

    Want to know an easy fix to sin?

    Change all Sin damage to poison. At a certain investment level (I'd say hidden veil level) all physical attacks (meaning from other trees) become poison attacks.

    This would probably make it at least an even fight if you come out of stealth and still mean you'll die when not.

    As a counter to this, casting cure would change it back to physical for the duration of a DOT and the next attack that is not DOT.

    You know what Sin's are great for now? When someone is level 49 or lower and you are 50 in open world PvP. Or when going against someone that has no clue how to play.

    On the plus side I'm really liking my warrior and necro/dom now can't wait to get them to 50 next.

  3. #3
    Plane Walker Terpsichore's Avatar
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    I would like to see more stuff that has to do with stealth and positioning.

    Hidden veil shouldn't be so deep in the tree, backstab should be buffed and become the non-finisher burst skill.

    Assassinate buffed as well.

    Some new skill that makes the enemy spin, exposing his back to you and rooting him in place (preventing turning around), would be both an offensive and defensive ability.

    Some "smoke bomb" like ability that makes you enter stealth after every x seconds of standing inside it.

    Obviously better mobility and anti-kiting tools without having to spend a lot of points in other trees.


    A lot can be done to spice the class up, assassin has a very rough and rushed design.
    Last edited by Terpsichore; 03-21-2011 at 05:19 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quill are you saying that at 50 with the slip away stealth reopen that geared warriors still win?

    Curious

    Any more posts are very welcome

  5. #5
    Plane Touched Quilliam's Avatar
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    Yes.

    And what scares me is that some people claim that right now armour does not mitigate PHY damage in pvp (unless they have the pvp armour).

    I think it does , but we are really in trouble if it does not. Which is why I suggest changing our damage type as a fix. and I know we are not supposed to talk about it...damage type is why people love their nightblade's among other reasons.

    If not then I have no idea how they are living through our damage...


    My 50 warrior friends that I've run the expert dungeons with love to duel and show me why we suck. Plus I run the warfronts a lot also. (or I should say I used to run them, now I've moved on to my other classes and retired my rogue)

    What I do not understand though is why there is a huge difference in success ratio when I go after someone slightly lower than me in open world PvP. I suspect it's just luck of the draw running into people that do not PvP a lot because knowing what I know now having played a rogue I have a blast when a rogue tries to kill me.

    As the soul stands right now (and I've tried many suggested parings of souls with Sin) what we are is an extra attack for our team. For us to be useful we need to sit in stealth and wait for our team to get someone close to death and then jump in and finish the job.

    I personally do not want to be someone else's finisher.

    This all could be by design though. In most games people hate stealthers so maybe the idea was just make stealth souls very weak in PvP.

    There are going to be many Sins that will disagree with me. That's fine, I didn't believe it at first when even Sins I respected started saying it was true. But these are super easy controlled test everyone can try at 50 through duels.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple Shyzhi's Avatar
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    Tbh... unless a champion attacks me 1st i mostly win as i just bleed them to death with Jagged / Impale and so on : o and stun them as much as i can and they drop. Thats mostly champs in my 30-39 or 40-49 bracket. i aint been at 50 with peeps in epics yet.
    CPU: AMD 1055T X6 3.8GHz Mobo: MSI Fuzion 870A GPU: XFX ATI Radeon HD 6870 1024MB / Nvidia GeForce GTX 260 Core216 Ram: 8Gbz Mushkin Blackline DDR3 1600Mhz

  7. #7
    Rift Chaser Khroul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rowdysattva View Post
    Quill are you saying that at 50 with the slip away stealth reopen that geared warriors still win?

    Curious

    Any more posts are very welcome

    It depends on what kind of warrior it is.

    Riftblade/Pally/Warlord? Yeah you're not going to win. Even if you do almost kill them, they'll just get full Hp and then kill you.

    Against a Champion? Yeah It's really not hard to Expose Weakness > Jagged Strike > Puncture > Impale > ect ect.

    Assuming they don't Fear you through the world right before you kill them, causing you to teleport to freemach, and get a deserter debuff of course.

    I love seeing people step in when others complain about warriors. With their smug little attitudes. 'Oh well I can bleed out Champions and kill them easy' Yeah No ****, nobody is having problems with them in 1v1 fights. In Warfronts when they charge you and 2 shot you, sure they're gay. but at least their burst means something.

    The Warriors I have problems with? It's the Tank/Riftblade combos. Because doing 500 DPS, with 50%+ avoidance ALL THE TIME, is totally fair. Think I'm joking? No, I'm not. You can pretty easily get about 27% dodge between Riftblade and Warlord buffs, not including your dexterity, and you can get another 20% block between pally and Warlord buffs. So Yeah It is ********, when a 51pt Sin build doesn't do a whole ton more than that.

    It's especially ****ty when you get Disarmed. Which is in the Warlord Tree. Oh and every time you crit them, you take 45-70% of that damage back as fire damage passively, and that damage they do back to you can crit.

    Oh and for those of you that thing you can just bleed them out? Yeah well they can block individual bleed ticks, which if speced right, can heal them, and damage you.

    You want to know what my Strat against Warriors with a shield is?
    It's called:

    STAYING INVISIBLE

  8. #8
    Plane Touched ralinsilver's Avatar
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    Well warriors are the rogue bane, so the fact that if can catch one alone and have a good chance at winning is good.

    If the any warrior catches me out in the open i'm toast. Which I believe is how it should be. They should still fix the bugs and armor, it shouldn't be a 2 second ownage. It should be like my 20 sec bleed take down, where they can still fight, but im sure they know its not gonna turn out well.

    ATM the biggest issue I have is with AoE heals that basically undo all my damage. We need a anti-healing poison just like the NB one.
    Ralinblack - Faemist - Onineko - Assassin - LvL 50 - Rank 2
    Ralinsteel - Faemist - Onineko - Warrior - LvL 10 - Fear me!

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser Khroul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralinsilver View Post
    Well warriors are the rogue bane, so the fact that if can catch one alone and have a good chance at winning is good.

    If the any warrior catches me out in the open i'm toast. Which I believe is how it should be. They should still fix the bugs and armor, it shouldn't be a 2 second ownage. It should be like my 20 sec bleed take down, where they can still fight, but im sure they know its not gonna turn out well.

    ATM the biggest issue I have is with AoE heals that basically undo all my damage. We need a anti-healing poison just like the NB one.
    Honestly,

    Trion threw the 'Warrior>Rogue>Mage>Cleric mantra out the window on this one by giving Mages healing, Clerics Tanking/DPS, and Rogues Healing/Tanking/DPS.

    There is no Rock Paper Scissors in Rifts.

    Unless Warriors, Clerics, Mages are all rock, and Rogues are Scissors.

    Though I think part of the problem, is that Rogues Sub 50, scale pretty well. It isn't until you hit 50 where the game turns to ****. So we have all these 30-40's rogues thinking they're awesome, and that rogues are fine, talking on the forums about how everyone else needs to L2P. But it's okay because when they hit 50, and try to gank a mage, who already has Prestige 6, and is in Full Valor gear. And their Assassinate crits that mage for 450 or that mages 8k HP. Well. Yeah.

    I can already tell PVP in this game is following in WoW's footsteps with the Valor gear.

    Which probably will translate into me not playing Rifts for more than a couple months at most.

  10. #10
    Rift Master Arcticred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyzhi View Post
    Tbh... unless a champion attacks me 1st i mostly win as i just bleed them to death with Jagged / Impale and so on : o and stun them as much as i can and they drop. Thats mostly champs in my 30-39 or 40-49 bracket. i aint been at 50 with peeps in epics yet.
    Let me tell you, @ 50 with Epics warriors are in the region of 6-8k health. If you opened with jagged>puncture>impail
    then restealth and the same again you still wouldnt kill them.

    And that is in the perfect situation where they do nothing to you.

    All the guys on the froums saying they have no problems dealing with warriors havent come across a geared up one yet. I can kill any well played warrior who is level 50 and is kitted out in blues and greens, you can spot them because they have 4.5-5.5k HP. Now try the same scenario with a warrior in PvP armor or a mix of T1-2 and the damage is halved. That is half damage ontop of their 6-8k HP.

    I have tried different scenarios with a guildie in a mix of T1-2 and my Jagged>puncture>impale does approx 2k damage. I stealth and then rinse repeat and get him to 20-40% HP,
    Now he fights back, he roots me, bullrush, perfect timing, finisher and im on 10% HP and im in a mix of rank3 PvP and tiered gear.

    So to surmise. Same geared warrior>melee rogue every time, unless they are afk, facing away from their monitor or fell asleep on their keyboard (even then they can win if they roll their face over the instant macro key )
    Last edited by Arcticred; 03-22-2011 at 06:52 AM.
    http://www.siglaunch.com/sigs/any/2/2/3/7/7/4322377PXOFX.png Only the dead have seen the end of war

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralinsilver View Post
    Well warriors are the rogue bane, so the fact that if can catch one alone and have a good chance at winning is good.

    If the any warrior catches me out in the open i'm toast. Which I believe is how it should be. They should still fix the bugs and armor, it shouldn't be a 2 second ownage. It should be like my 20 sec bleed take down, where they can still fight, but im sure they know its not gonna turn out well.

    ATM the biggest issue I have is with AoE heals that basically undo all my damage. We need a anti-healing poison just like the NB one.

    Why not just play the NB? The roles of the assassin and the NB are very different. NB is your anti-healer. Assassin is your superior stealth class. Figure out what you do well and do that and you'll enjoy your class so much more.
    Last edited by Gaslov; 03-22-2011 at 07:20 AM.

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