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Thread: How ability damage is affected by Weapon Damage, Testing Complete.

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default How ability damage is affected by Weapon Damage, Testing Complete.

    After searching the forums and finding a ton of conflicting posts in regards to exactly what numbers on a weapon, abilities use, so I decided to run some tests. I used the normal practice dummy, at level 50. I tested using a white mace and a white dagger bought from the melee vendor in Moonshade Highlands,. I had no soul points to eliminate procs the three souls I used were Sin, Nightblade and Riftstalker, however I only tested using Savage Strike. Combat was parsed using Advanced Combat Tracker. For the first two tests I was completely naked, and used no planar focus. The race of my character is an Eth although that shouldn't matter. For the second set of tests I was fully geared but had no soul points and no planar focus to eliminate procs.

    Test 1:
    Stats are 35 Strength, 71 Dexterity, 53 ap, 71 physical crit
    White Mace no stats: 13dps, 24-46, 2.7 speed

    Duration Damage DPS Avg Hit Min Hit Max Hit Hits Misses Crits Total Swings Crit %
    01:55 6,369 54.91 90.99 80 149 59 9 2 70 3

    Test 2:
    Stats are 35 Strength, 71 Dexterity, 53 ap, 71 physical crit
    White dagger no stats: 12.8dps, 16-30, 1.8 speed

    Duration Damage DPS Avg Hit Min Hit Max Hit Hits Misses Crits Total Crit %
    01:58 7,035 59.62 90.19 80 148 74 3 1 78 1%

    Test 3:
    Stats are: 214 Dexterity, 126 strength, 174 ap, 323 physical crit, 19 hit
    Same White Mace as above

    Duration Damage DPS Avg Hit Min Hit Max Hit Hits Misses Crits Total Crit %
    01:59 8,751 73.54 109.39 89 163 64 1 13 80 16%

    Test 4:
    Stats are: 214 Dexterity, 126 strength, 174 ap, 323 physical crit, 19 hit
    Same White Dagger as Above

    Duration Damage DPS Avg Hit Min Hit Max Hit Hits Misses Crits Total Crit %
    01:57 8,418 70.74 106.56 89 161 69 1 9 79 11%

    Again all of these numbers are only based off of Savage Strike, so that could explain the differences in crit percentage, hopefully auto attacks would even it out. In the first test both of the weapons have almost exactly the same Average, Minimum and Max hits, the Max hits are really crits. However in the second set of tests the Mace out preforms the Dagger although by a small amount.

    My assumption based on this evidence is that Slower weapons get a bigger contribution from Attack Power. Which makes sense, because if it didn't work that way Warriors or Clerics when upgrading to a new tier of weapon might of been better off using a 1 hand and Shield/Totem until an equal DPS two hand was found. Also luckily Trion noticed that if things were just based off of weapon DPS most rogues would only be using daggers which would suck because with all of the Souls and customization given to us they would of essentially pigeonholed us into a single weapon type.

    So essentially what these tests prove is that DPS is the main factor on ability damage, however given equal DPS weapons pick a slower one for main hand for higher ability damage. Of course this doesn't factor in procs from talents or poisons, so until Gear puts slower weapons further ahead even a lower DPS faster weapon will probably be slightly better due to procs, this is something that I plan on testing further when I get some better gear, I just hit 50 last night. If anyone would like to run these tests as well for a longer duration please do, I choose a 2 minute duration since that is close to a typical boss fight.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    Thank you for testing!

    I'd really love to see the DPS differences when using:

    1. Another pair of grey weapons which have a differeint DPS rating (i.e. you tested with grey 30 DPS weapons, go buy a couple of 15 DPS weapons, test with those)

    2. Test with a blue weapon with stats.

    3. Test with gear on and gear off.


    Lastly, would be really nice to see some different abilities tested under these various scenarios. Charge damage versus detonate damage with differing weapons? (there are questions about how those abilities scale)

    If you're not up for testing these things, you're not, but I'm not level 50 yet, so I cannot test yet myself!

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple
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    Well done, sir, thank you for your effort.

    This won't actually solve any arguments amongst probably 80% of forum goers, but it is still greatly appreciated by the other 20% of us.

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    I actually did some more testing using a 19.8 dps axe and a 21.7 dps dagger, using the same method as the white weapons. Naked with no soul points and then Geared with No soul points. The results were essentially the same because the dagger preformed better than the axe, naked by 7 dps, and when fully geared the dagger preformed better than the axe by 3 dps and the max hit difference(crit) went from 17 to 5. The formatting got screwed up on my original post, I'm going to try and fix it however tests 1 and 2 were done naked and 3-4 were done fully geared, no talents were used in either.

    I did some testing with saboteurs so far, although I was saving it for a different post I'll just post it here. I tested two different talents to see if they worked with sabs. I tested the Sin +15% poison damage. I used no talents with procs in them and my character was completely naked, the exact same weapons were also used. The damage did increase by close to 15%, which really helps me lean towards testing a sab/sin/nb build. And the second talent I tested was Cruel Vengence, which gives you +10% damage on Critical Attacks. I assumed it would only proc from Melee or Ranged Attacks but charges that crit will also proc it, however since sabs don't have constant damage it doesn't have a great uptime.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple
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    Ah yes, you've reminded me of something else I'm very curious about;

    What values do you get for crits when using weapons with different damage ranges? Does a higher DPS weapon "crit" for more, or does a weapon with higher damage range crit for more? I think you may have been trying to answer that, but I couldn't quite figure out what you were saying about crits.

    The other thing I was trying to ask about with Sabs was whether charge damage scales with Attack power. Some folks on the forums have claimed that only detonate scales with AP, and I'd love to know if that's BS or not.
    Last edited by Puckey; 03-18-2011 at 08:36 AM.

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    So Total Swings = Hits + Misses + Crits? Seems rather odd.

    The third one doesn't work out, though, as Hits + Misses + Crits = 78, not the 80 under Total Swings.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Also, why did the mace swing over 10% more in the 3rd case compared to the 1st?

  8. #8
    Shield of Telara
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    Great work. This is generally what I had been thinking. Given the same dps weapon the higher delay/higher dmg range will produce higher spikes occasionally but this is generally off set by procs of enchants/poisons, etc.

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozrael View Post
    So essentially what these tests prove is that DPS is the main factor on ability damage, however given equal DPS weapons pick a slower one for main hand for higher ability damage.
    Wait a minute .. Didnt you just prove that no matter how fast or slow your weapon is, ability dmg stays the same, then why pick a slow one 'for higher ability dmg' when a slower one would have the same ability dmg ? ><
    Last edited by Lucenzo; 03-26-2011 at 06:47 AM.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Dinadass's Avatar
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    Your second round of tests has the mace critting 5% more than the dagger unless I'm reading it wrong. That is why it had a higher DPS.

    I've run several parses with t1 epic weapons with identical DPS but different speeds, and have gotten the same damage with backstab and blast charge (the two abilities I used to test). I'm pretty confident that weapon speed and raw damage matter much much less than the listed DPS.
    Last edited by Dinadass; 03-26-2011 at 08:22 AM.

    <Ascendant> 13/13 Seastone Defiant

  11. #11
    Soulwalker Eleii's Avatar
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    I have not had any chance to do real theorycrafting yet, so feel free to provide evidence to the contrary. But, to me, logic seems to indicate that slower weapons will tend to be a better choice.

    As rogues, most of our damage is coming from actively used abilities (yellow damage) as opposed to auto attacks (white damage) and our abilities are all "based on weapon damage". Ability based (yellow) damage will be occurring every GCD (1 second), which is much faster than the 1.8 (1.5?) second auto attack of daggers. Again, being based on weapon damage (most abilities seem to be "weapon damage +X") the higher the base damage on the weapon the better.

    If one was to acquire a faster weapon with higher base damage than a weapon currently equipped it would be most beneficial (dependent on other stats, of course) to use the one with the higher base damage.

    With two weapons of identical DPS but different attack speeds (and different damage ranges to fit) we should see better results with the slower weapon that has a higher top end damage point. Again, please correct me if this isnt the case. I would be surprised if it was not though.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Dinadass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleii View Post
    I have not had any chance to do real theorycrafting yet, so feel free to provide evidence to the contrary. But, to me, logic seems to indicate that slower weapons will tend to be a better choice.

    As rogues, most of our damage is coming from actively used abilities (yellow damage) as opposed to auto attacks (white damage) and our abilities are all "based on weapon damage". Ability based (yellow) damage will be occurring every GCD (1 second), which is much faster than the 1.8 (1.5?) second auto attack of daggers. Again, being based on weapon damage (most abilities seem to be "weapon damage +X") the higher the base damage on the weapon the better.

    If one was to acquire a faster weapon with higher base damage than a weapon currently equipped it would be most beneficial (dependent on other stats, of course) to use the one with the higher base damage.

    With two weapons of identical DPS but different attack speeds (and different damage ranges to fit) we should see better results with the slower weapon that has a higher top end damage point. Again, please correct me if this isnt the case. I would be surprised if it was not though.
    You are incorrect.

    Abilities that scale based on weapon damage have been normalized. A fast weapon and a slow weapon that have different raw damage values but the same listed DPS will both do the same amount of damage when you use an ability.

    I used two epic weapons from expert dungeons with identical DPS but different damage ranges to test this. I recorded a large number of backstabs on a target dummy with either weapon in my main hand and the average backstab damage was virtually identical. I did the same thing with Blast Charge and had similar results.

    <Ascendant> 13/13 Seastone Defiant

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