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Thread: Daggers vs Slow Weaps?

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Daggers vs Slow Weaps?

    Note this is mostly anecdotal.

    Most of the rogue skills are listed as "Weapon Damage + X" where X is some modifier for the ability. Generally speak, to get the most damage out of a given ability you then want to use a slow weapon, which give then same DPS as a fast weapon, will have a higher weapon damage.

    i.e. Dagger at 1.0 speed and Sword at 2.0 speed both at 30 DPS

    Daggers average weapon damage: 30 Sword average weapon damage: 60

    So to get the most damage out of an ability you are spamming, the slow weapon should be better. However it seems to me like there is some damage modifier or different math going on behind the scenes that is causing daggers to that are much faster to be competitive or better than slower weapons.

    Does anyone else notice this or able to explain the mechanic I am missing?

  2. #2
    Rift Master Tamanous's Avatar
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    Weapons have been normalized a few patches ago. Other than some proc powers you will see little difference.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    it depends on the spec. if ur assasin for instance its all about poisions so the faster the weps the better as to stack poisons faster.

  4. #4
    Shield of Telara
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    Weapon dmg was normalized in like beta 4 I believe it was. this being the case you want the weapon with the best DPS rating on it (barring vast differences in stat boosts, i.e. dagger with 20.5 dps and 15 dex, 12 str, 9 AP/Crit vs sword with 21.5 dps +5 str/dex/end obviously the dagger would be better).

    Weapon speed will effect only your Weapon Enchant procs at this point essentially. So if you are playing a rogue with no enchants, like bladedancer (though most ppl throw a touch of Sin or NB in most builds and therefore get enchants) or RS then weapon speed means pretty much nothing to you.

    It pretty much comes down to preference unless you are a Sin or NB that is wanting to make the most of your weapon enchants. Faster = more procs. But again that is only a small difference in dps +/- 1%dps in all likelyhood and if you dont care for min/maxing then no biggie.
    Last edited by BlackZilla; 03-17-2011 at 10:53 AM.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched Finkle's Avatar
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    It seems to me that most of my swings come from abilities. Sure, the auto attack is faster, but not by a ton. Wouldn't the extra damage you get from the higher top end weapon outweigh the few extra auto attacks you get that have a chance to proc a poison? I mean, regardless of weapon, I am swinging a savage strike ever GCD, right? Am I missing something?

    The tests that I ran, in the 30's, I found that with maces/axes I missed a LOT more in PvP. We still don't know why. I have run dual daggers most of the time. Now that I am high 40's and have +hit on some of my stuff, I decided to try out a non-dagger again. I picked up an axe. I love it. I don't know that I will dual dagger again.
    Finkle: Dwarven Rogue
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  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    i personally prefer daggers little numbers stacking too fast to keep track of is more apealing than big numbers here and there to me.

  7. #7
    Plane Touched Finkle's Avatar
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    That's just it though. In my tests, the numbers didn't really seem to slow down. They just got bigger. It is awesome.
    Finkle: Dwarven Rogue
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  8. #8
    Telaran Sayaka's Avatar
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    I heard somewhere that even procs were normalized. This really needs to be investigated more as that really is the only reason to prefer faster over slower weapons.
    Sayaka the Heartless <Vanguard> | Assassin/Ranger/Bard | Guardian of Deepstrike (PvP)

  9. #9
    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finkle View Post
    It seems to me that most of my swings come from abilities. Sure, the auto attack is faster, but not by a ton. Wouldn't the extra damage you get from the higher top end weapon outweigh the few extra auto attacks you get that have a chance to proc a poison? I mean, regardless of weapon, I am swinging a savage strike ever GCD, right? Am I missing something?

    The tests that I ran, in the 30's, I found that with maces/axes I missed a LOT more in PvP. We still don't know why. I have run dual daggers most of the time. Now that I am high 40's and have +hit on some of my stuff, I decided to try out a non-dagger again. I picked up an axe. I love it. I don't know that I will dual dagger again.
    Again dmg has been normalized across weapon types. This means DPS is the stat on the weapon that matters so far as dmg goes. The range 12-26 vs 14-30 makes no real difference.

    Axes with a 20.0 dps will not do more dmg than a dagger with 20.0 dps rating. If you are eyeballing things you are failing to see the truth of the matter. DPS is what matters on the weapon (aside from stat boosts ofcourse). It is pretty much entirely up to preference. What does matter when comparing axe to dagger is the 1.8 atk speed vs 2.4 atk speed. that is about a half second difference in swing speed. Now it is thought that if there is a cooldown on poisons it is 1.0 seconds. So that means every for every 2 swings with an axe you are missing out on 1 potential poison proc that you would be getting with daggers. This isnt huge. 1 poison proc isnt tons of dmg but it is a small difference.
    Last edited by BlackZilla; 03-17-2011 at 11:52 AM.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched Finkle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackZilla View Post
    Again dmg has been normalized across weapon types. This means DPS is the stat on the weapon that matters so far as dmg goes. The range 12-26 vs 14-30 makes no real difference.
    So EVERYTHING else aside:

    ANY 1 handed weapon with an overall DPS of 24 is better than a weapon with the exact same stats and an overall DPS of 22?
    Finkle: Dwarven Rogue
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  11. #11
    Shield of Telara
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    yes, from a pure dmg coming out of that weapon standpoint.
    Last edited by BlackZilla; 03-17-2011 at 11:58 AM.

  12. #12
    Rift Chaser Rykin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackZilla View Post
    Again dmg has been normalized across weapon types. This means DPS is the stat on the weapon that matters so far as dmg goes. The range 12-26 vs 14-30 makes no real difference.

    Axes with a 20.0 dps will not do more dmg than a dagger with 20.0 dps rating.
    This simply isn't true. Go pick up a grey weapon and test it out on a dummy. The DPS rating on a weapon does not account for instant strikes and every instant strike we do is affected by the top damage RANGE of the weapon. See for yourself, the moment you switch dagger and mace of the same DPS you will see much larger instant strikes on EVERY instant attack.

  13. #13
    Shadowlander
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    So, is there a consensus? It seems like half the people are saying daggers and swords are normalized to the same point, and other saying they are not.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    Default Your wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Rykin View Post
    This simply isn't true. Go pick up a grey weapon and test it out on a dummy. The DPS rating on a weapon does not account for instant strikes and every instant strike we do is affected by the top damage RANGE of the weapon. See for yourself, the moment you switch dagger and mace of the same DPS you will see much larger instant strikes on EVERY instant attack.

    DPS is what matters for ability damage, however if you have two weapons of the same dps you want the slower one. IF you have a faster weapon with more dps but with a lower damage range the faster weapon will still hit harder. I made a post earlier today regarding this called "How ability Damage is affected by weapon damage" with the testing that I did on a practice dummy. I used a white mace and a white dagger, naked at level 50 with no talents. I did this to clear up this debate once and for all.

  15. #15
    Telaran Wraught's Avatar
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    I'm curious to see if trion makes some abilities require a certain weap type. IE: Backstab requires dagger in mainhand etc.

    Personally, I run sin with the 15% increased poison damage. Faster weap the better at this time, due to more procs.

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