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Thread: Why rogues suck...

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser Smashapotamus's Avatar
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    Default Why rogues suck...

    This is going to be more rant than anything else but it will be accurate regardless. All of these complaints are observations I have made about the rogue's role in PVP based on my experiences as a prestige rank 4 rogue and a guy who has played the rogue class almost exclusively since beta 3.

    Aside from a handful of niche roles that rogues fit into well, the rogue class as a whole is the WORST PVP class in the game for various reasons. EVERY rogue soul has incredible shortcomings in comparison to the other classes in the game that make it considerably less viable than any other class in the game. The following are a few of those reasons.

    1. Complete lack of burst for EVERY rogue melee soul. This isn't rocket science, it is commonly accepted knowledge in the MMO world that burst DPS reigns king in PVP. This is due mainly to the abundance of healing provided by the other team. If your damage is dealt over time or as some other form of sustainable DPS it is easily healed through or easily kited into insignificance. While saboteur offers solid burst it also represents a play style that is a dramatic departure from the play style most MMO rogue class fanatics expect to see. So essentially what you're telling us rogue fans is that if we want to play a rogue and have burst we have to play a soul that doesn't represent anything even remotely close to our preferred play style.

    2. Lack of chainable CC. This issue is touchy because nobody likes to be "stun locked," and while I am sensitive to the desires of people who don't want to be killed before they even get a chance to fight back this issue gains momentum when combined with the previously mentioned lack of burst DPS. Essentially a melee rogue doesn't have the ability to kill an opponent quickly so they're forced to utilize tactics to keep the players in range so they can beat on them for prolonged periods of time and hopefully win the fight by attrition. Mages chain CC, warriors chain stun in pairs and can chain disarm solo. Why is it that the class that has the least burst damage AND is stereotypically the chain stun class in MMO's has the worst CC in the game?

    3. Stealth, where to start? Ghetto stealth in this game is all over the place with only 1 soul posessing the abilities to improve it which pretty much forces any rogue who wants to make stealth a major part of their build to play with significant investment in assassin. There are various issues with this design but none more blatantly obvious than the fact that the utilization of stealth is the premiere defining factor of the rogue class in EVERY OTHER GAME. Stealth, and the power of it and the play style it offers is the ONLY reason that the rogue class exists at all. To limit it so dramatically in this game only contributes to make the rogue into some perverse variation of what a rogue is supposed to be. If you don't want every rogue soul to possess the ability to stealth then so be it, but ghetto stealth (decreased run speed and 30 second limits) needs to be heavily limited or removed entirely from its current implementation, simply put it's overkill. It's somebody overthinking the class and trying to make something complicated out of something simple behind the guise that it'll be better this way, it's not. While you're at it why don't you make a warrior class that doesn't wear plate or a mage class that doesn't cast spells? I mean if you're so willing to destroy the most prominent class defining trait of a rogue whats to stop you from doing it elsewhere?

    Another blatant issue with stealth is that EVERYTHING breaks it. And by everything I mean everything. You got a nice trinket you wanna use that increases your attack power by 50? Don't be in stealth and expect to pop it and then open up on somebody. Nah the game won't allow that kind of preparation because as soon as you proc that trinket you're breaking stealth. So in order to use a trinket we have to forego our more powerful ability (stealth and our stealth openers) and either begin the fight from out of stealth or use the trinket AFTER beginning the fight which wastes a GCD. Atleast a warrior gets to pop that trinket outside of melee range as he's running into a fight so that he has the buff from the second he enters the fight, not a rogue though because we're designed to begin fights from stealth but are prohibited from doing that if we want to use a trinket. So yeah, no stealth = no stealth opener = crap fight. No rogue in his right mind would ever use a trinket in this game that has to be manually activated.

    Oh want to use your guild perk like blood thirsty? If you kill somebody and you proc it don't restealth until it's done proc'ing heals on you because if you do it'll break you out of stealth.

    Want to use a self buff like ebon fury, blackout, twilight transcendence, planebound resilence, cleanse soul, or even some of the high end poisons like cloudy poison? Guess what, you can't apply ANY of these while stealthed.

    Oh and then just when you think that you've got it all mastered and you know what breaks stealth and what doesn't, there is a fun little bug where stealth just randomly breaks when you walk over bumpy terrain. LOL!

    4. Sap. Why is it that sap is so completely inferior to the mage ability transmogrify? Now I don't expect them to be the same or even on completely equal footing since the two are very different but when you consider how many more restrictions incapacitate and lost hope (rogues 2 sap abilities) have in comparison to transmogrify you would expect to see a CC ability that was somehow equivalently powerful. Without getting into the awesome upgrades mages get to transmogrify by adding points to it our saps have considerably more restrictions. Mages get to just cast a transmogrify CC whenever they want, in order to sap somebody a rogue must be in stealth, the target must be out of combat, and one of the 2 abilities can only be performed in melee range. The funny part about that is that for all of this difficulty the rogue is rewarded with a CC that has a shorter duration and has no upgrade features. I know i'm not alone when I say that sap's diminished return in PVP renders it almost completely useless as its duration isn't long enough to serve much purpose to the rogue and it can essentially only be used once as you're likely out of stealth and into the fight by the time the first one expires.

    5. The infiltrator soul is the WORST pvp soul in the game. This soul does not offer anything that cannot be found somewhere in another rogue tree, and on top of that the abilities that are gained are almost completely useless bordering on broken. I cannot express how completely underwhelming the so-called "pvp soul" is for rogues. You really do gimp yourself if you use it because you give up so much in the process. Those 15 points you've got left to invest after maxing out the nightblade tree are much more worthy of being invested in assassin or riftstalker than infiltrator it's not even funny. This is the case partly because the melee rogue souls are just inherently weak. In order to put a half decent build together you HAVE to invest heavily into a combination of souls. I.E. if you don't have assassin supplementing nightblade for some extra offensive kick you're going to notice a significant dropoff in throughput that will render it extremely difficult to kill somebody. There just isn't a melee soul here that provides any type of a reliable hammer on its own the way you'd expect from a rogue so when it comes time to work the infiltrator tree in there somehow you've really gotta rob peter to pay paul and then you find out that paul is a significantly less valuable employee than peter was and you screwed yourself in the process.

    6. Too much DOT emphasis. Since when is a rogue's primary design to place DOT's on a target? Dots are easily healed through in group PVP. One bard randomly strumming away in a warfront completely oblivious to what the rogue is doing can negate the rogues DOT DPS. This is why DOT specs don't work in PVP. A rogues strength is supposed to be his openers from stealth, not the DOT's he's gonna put on you before he runs and hides.

    Now that isn't to say that it's all terrible, because it isn't. Rogues do have some niches that make them interesting at times. They generally excel at open world solo or small group PVP. This is mainly due to the advantageous position granted by stealth. Considering the lack of sustainable open world PVP in this game though thats a tough sell to most of the people playing this game. Their tank role as a riftstalker is pretty cool although not the most useful of souls for PVP purposes. Riftstalker does provide some interesting flag running and shard ninja'ing capabilities as well but again that isn't exactly a major past time or selling point for the class.

    Why does any of this matter?

    Simply put, the factions/guilds/groups that are leveraged into the rogue class represent the failing portion of the game in PVP. Many of the servers and battle groups are reporting one-sidedness in their warfronts and on the PVP scene as a whole. My server is one of them (briarcliff) where defiant are generally getting hammered on a daily basis. My premades do well for ourselves but I notice a significant difference in performance when we bring fewer rogues. Furthermore when I am out of my premade groups and running with the puggers I notice a repeated trend that the defiant faction as a whole is heavily leveraged into the rogue class. Conversely the guardians are heavily leveraged into everything but rogues and they roll daily. All day long I walk into these pug warfronts and find 6+ out of 10 defiant players are playing a rogue class and then they proceed to inevitably get steamrolled, guardians bring no more than 1-3 rogues to a warfront and dominate all day long. Again this is just MY observation and I can't speak for anybody elses experiences, but even my own premades seemingly go better when we bring fewer rogues. It is my belief that were melee rogues not the complete dogs that they are in PVP that this game would be considerably more balanced. Trion has the statistical metrics available to them, maybe it's time they look at them.
    Briarcliff * Defiant

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    There was so much i disagreed with in your post that i dont really have time to reply to it all.

    Ill say this: Try a mage class, then QQ.

    Honestly, if you have this many issues with the class then i suggest you either:

    a) Move away from rogues in general.
    b) Quite the game.


    The fact that you think rogues dont have any burst damage is, well, unbelievable.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    We'll probably be called crazy but I 90% agree with this post, the only rogue soul of any value is Sab. Bard buffs as far as I can tell are outshined by other enhance souls their healing is negligible, the only thing they do bring is a mez style spell why even bother doing that when you can just go Mage and spam insta cast squirrels that don't break on *ANY* damage ( by any i mean they don't break when i auto attack them for 30)

    As Any spec except for sab I feel like i bring nothing to a PvE table. I cannot tank as well as warriors. I also do negligible DPS as a tank, all while my warrior specs into his leveling spec to AOE down expert dungeons for almost as much damage as I do.

    Please buff every single rogue soul including sab and then if sabs are actually a problem past level 30 nerf it back down.

    Turn bard into a healing soul I barely notice the buffs a bard bring, then a mage subspecs Archon and my DPS rises considerably. every rogue soul is outshined by some other soul in a different archetype and we bring nothing to compensate for it.

    I'll probably be called bad but man I guess I'm crazy bad.

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sqwire View Post
    There was so much i disagreed with in your post that i dont really have time to reply to it all.

    Ill say this: Try a mage class, then QQ.

    Honestly, if you have this many issues with the class then i suggest you either:

    a) Move away from rogues in general.
    b) Quite the game.


    The fact that you think rogues dont have any burst damage is, well, unbelievable.
    The only rogue spec that has burst damage is Sab, the rest have a bunch of damage over time crap that doesn't work even half as good or consistent dps which also doesn't work. All while my warrior friends charges around hitting for as hard as I do after a 6/7 second setup. also none of the actual sab damage scales with anything but weapon damage. The only spell that does is Detonate... lol

    Your right I should try a mage class, 44 points in pyro I believe it is, Groiund of Power. basically turns you into an unccable killing machine.
    Last edited by Redtah; 03-16-2011 at 09:18 PM.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    I rerolled Warrior and I am much happy.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker Koel's Avatar
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    well that's kinda depressing

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    Isn't infiltrator good for shaving 2s off of stuns as well? It's not as good as the sab equivalent, but you also get an ability that gives you 50% damage for four seconds if you're cced. Unless that's on a pretty long cooldown, I think it's be worth the points.

    I'm only 38ish, so I don't know too much about infiltrator.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker seansucks's Avatar
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    i wholeheartedly agree with this thread. cleric can do every role better than a rogue. rock, paper, scissors, my ***.
    skramz - defiant - dayblind
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  9. #9
    Soulwalker Xel Naga's Avatar
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    Default Sucks for us

    Sadly I must agree with what the OP has to say. And I say sadly because I <3 the rogue but it is really underpowered

    All i have to add to the op's post is... Everything you said + we only have pleather armor, so not only do we struggle to kill someone, but we get killed way easier...

    Now before you guys rage on me... tell me, how easy is it for u to kill a full health and buffed, warrior/cleric. Yeah I rest my case

  10. #10
    Soulwalker BloodAholic's Avatar
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    It amazes me how a Beastmaster/champion can out DPS every single build i have in both AoE and single target im at 1.2k dps AoEing as sab guess what the bm/champ is at 1.8k dps AoE now still the same BM but im assassin. Single target im at 600-800 dps guess freaking what BM is at 1000-1200 dps i mean WTF how can the same build out dps my AoE build and my pure single target build. Rogues are so gimp in this game its ****ing ******ed god why didn't i roll mage or warrior.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    Sometimes I wonder why the rogue calling is even in the game... I'm exaggerating slightly but if warriors can equal or out dps rogues without sacrificing armor why even have them? It seems like the rogue calling has to make a lot more sacrifices than the warrior calling.

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple RiftWarden's Avatar
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    Thanks to the OP for his detailed overview of the issues.

    I would tend to agree with most of it as well. Hopefully these and other issues from other classes failings will be considered and adjusted in time.

    Now we've said what's wrong. But what changes need to happen to bring us up?

    My ideas:
    1. Any self buff or ability that doesn't cause damage to another should not break stealth. I would include drinks and potions with this so that if you Slip Away from a losing fight, you can heal up stealthed.

    2. Standard stealth should not be movement gimped. Silent Footsteps in the assassin soul should remain unchanged so that spending these pts moves you at normal speed +15% or 30%.

    3. Eliminate diminishing returns on stuns until the 3rd stun. They're only 4 seconds for assassin. 8 seconds of stun (or 10 with the diminishing 3rd stun) for the damage we do is not enough to kill any cleric or warrior soul, but MAY be enough to kill a healing mage. There's our rock/paper/scissors.

    What are YOUR ideas.
    Last edited by RiftWarden; 03-16-2011 at 11:14 PM.
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  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiftWarden View Post
    Thanks to the OP for his detailed overview of the issues.

    I would tend to agree with most of it as well. Hopefully these and other issues from other classes failings will be considered and adjusted in time.

    Now we've said what's wrong. But what changes need to happen to bring us up?

    My ideas:
    1. Any self buff or ability that doesn't cause damage to another should not break stealth. I would include drinks and potions with this so that if you Slip Away from a losing fight, you can heal up stealthed.

    2. Standard stealth should not be movement gimped. Silent Footsteps in the assassin soul should remain unchanged so that spending these pts moves you at normal speed +15% or 30%.

    3. Eliminate diminishing returns on stuns until the 3rd stun. They're only 4 seconds for assassin. 8 seconds of stun (or 10 with the diminishing 3rd stun) for the damage we do is not enough to kill any cleric or warrior soul, but MAY be enough to kill a healing mage. There's our rock/paper/scissors.

    What are YOUR ideas.

    I agree to an extent with the OP, but definitely not with the above post.

    You're basically asking for rogues to be given a permanent stealthy state, instead of a speed hit for this massive benefit you want a speed increase and for nothing to ever break it? And then you want them to allow for basically complete stunlock on any enemy.

    How easy do you want the game to be lol

    I think the rogue classes (apart from sab which imho really needs a bit of toning down) are actually quite well balanced and offer good variety and different playstyles. The problem comes when we see warriors doing more DPS than us, with more defence and in some cases better stuns and cc.

    The problem is, if you buff rogues to match, we will just destroy everything else and become the imba ones.

    Clerics healing through anything is annoying but actually I welcome the change - most mmo's are always crying out for healers as who wants to run around being a healbot who gets the **** kicked out of them first! At least in Rift the healing classes now have options and a better time of it.

    But come on - bring some of the warrior dmg down a bit to make up for the fact they wear plate lol

    Why do Paragons get to dual wield in plate and we can only dual wield in leather?

    Why do Champs get guaranteed crit and rogues don't?

    etc etc

  14. #14
    Shield of Telara IceDread's Avatar
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    I play both warrior and rogue and I also have a mage. Neather are lvl 50 yet however. But all the time I see this QQ in all level ranges. I've had great success with both warrior and rogue. Mage was good, but not as great as rogue.

    Rogues thinks they can alone go in against 3+ people and do their job, well it's then 3 vs 1 and if rogue can win that, there is no reason to be something else than a rogue.

    Nearly all the pvp souls blows in my view btw. The mage soul is garbage, you get more dps and cc by going in other souls, the warrior soul, I am very hesitant to go into that pvp soul, the rogue soul, not that interesting but in line with the other pvp souls.

    The OP is QQ'ing but does not provide his own game style and builds. No vids or anything showing us him and his skill and how we wants help.

    It's obviously a troll.

    Did he specc into longer stun duration? Did he get counter measures against cc like halved stun duration? So many questions...

    All thou, the rogue do have issues, but so does warrior and mage and cleric.

    Edit: btw, there are things to do against clerics beside stuns.. making spells take longer time to build is one thing..
    Last edited by IceDread; 03-16-2011 at 11:28 PM.
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  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceDread View Post
    I play both warrior and rogue and I also have a mage. Neather are lvl 50 yet however. But all the time I see this QQ in all level ranges. I've had great success with both warrior and rogue. Mage was good, but not as great as rogue.

    Rogues thinks they can alone go in against 3+ people and do their job, well it's then 3 vs 1 and if rogue can win that, there is no reason to be something else than a rogue.

    Nearly all the pvp souls blows in my view btw. The mage soul is garbage, you get more dps and cc by going in other souls, the warrior soul, I am very hesitant to go into that pvp soul, the rogue soul, not that interesting but in line with the other pvp souls.

    The OP is QQ'ing but does not provide his own game style and builds. No vids or anything showing us him and his skill and how we wants help.

    It's obviously a troll.

    Did he specc into longer stun duration? Did he get counter measures against cc like halved stun duration? So many questions...

    All thou, the rogue do have issues, but so does warrior and mage and cleric.

    Edit: btw, there are things to do against clerics beside stuns.. making spells take longer time to build is one thing..
    Instant casts spells don't time longer time to build, theres 2 heal debuffs that I know of, one deep nightblade, the other is 20 points into trash pvp soul. I know of 2 interrupts one is a finisher from ranger the other actually useful one is from being bladedancer. Its too bad that bladedancer is like being a ******ed warrior and ranger is like being a ******ed marksman with a pretty sweet derpapet.

    Rogues don't really have utility is the problem only mediocre damage

    and which soul has stuns? assassin sab has a short one thats aoe. everytime I go to use a stun that isn't the stealth opener the person is already immune to them so....

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