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Thread: True Confessions of a Tier 2 Rogue Tank

  1. #181
    Ascendant nand chan's Avatar
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    Hi our guild's riftstalker is main tanking GSB and raid rifts.

  2. #182
    Rift Disciple
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    So what would you change about rift tanking?

    Lower RD's cooldown?
    Take off the -30% damage of the stance (with talents)?
    Give healing back?

    I'd like some initial pull security. Maybe a 20% dodge that lasts for 5 seconds, but is only applied when we're out of combat or after a rift (call it Planar Attunement). A ranged pull would be wonderful (a reverse rift-warp basically). I think we're also the only tank without an interrupt (unless we go up into the BD tree), though I'd trade an interrupt for an offensive dispel.

    I know that i've spouted crazy builds for rift tanking before and I've come to realize that they only worked because I'm completely t2 geared as well as my healer and dps.

    I've come to my own conclusion that going out of the 51 point isnt viable for progression and yes I understand this is hotly debated, just my own experience. I also now play with a sab who significantly helps with aoe threat, so it's no longer a huge issue for us.

  3. #183
    Sword of Telara Fasc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Sorry but there are plenty of burst situations in tier 2. Some of those large trash packs in DD, or the Werewolf right when you're dragging him out of the moonlight. Antophonius in RD right when the adds spawn. Majolic in AP if tank gets a 2nd crystal. Gronik in CC with 3-4 stacks. There's lots of burst damage. Saying there isn't is just denial of the obvious.
    I didn't say burst didn't exist, I said unavoidable burst or burst you can't plan for doesn't really exist. Using Wrath for a moment, LK had no unavoidable bursts on Normal, but he most definitely smacked Tanks around handily when the raid-wide aura was still at 0%. LK-Heroic on the other hand had unavoidable burst at 0%, and unfortunately it actually killed even EH stacking Tanks, hence why you just ran with a SS rotation on the MT at all times.

    I can easily plan for when the pain is about to happen unless I'm in a brand new dungeon and I have no clue what's about to happen to me. Then again, if I'm on a fresh pull or one that looks nasty due to number of mobs or whatever, I have CDs I roll just in case. 2 minutes is nothing when some pulls take about half as long at the shortest.

    People also overlook Scatter the Shadows which is probably the best tanking cooldown in the game. 3 seconds of complete damage immunity is simply amazing. You are guaranteeing a healer will be able to land a kamehameha heal on you. Planar Attraction is also phenomenal and its hard for me to imagine doing trash without it at this point, so less than 44 in RS really isn't an attractive option.
    AoE Death Grip (I don't think I'll ever call it something different) is a godsend skill and I would hate giving it up, but I mostly use it for ranged/caster types that just refuse to group how I want. Between RD and Blitz and Twin Strike, I've had no issues holding threat. StS on the other hand, is a coin toss for me. It has the potential to be the most absolute OP CD in the entire game, it negates everything. It also can be used to literally no effect because of how short it is and how little damage it can mitigate. The dungeons really haven't presented me with anything where I've felt I've needed it and often its the last thing I reach for, but it is a valuable CD nonetheless and definitely needs to be considered when dropping sub 51.

    To me, going 22 BD is a bad idea. You're giving up what Rogues excel at (effective health) to essentially become an inferior warrior. I wouldn't mind if they improved some of the tanking talents in BD to make it a more attractive option and actually add some diversity to Rogue tank specs, but right now it seems like you're giving up too much to gain too little.

    If I see a dex'd out rogue with BD and Sabo Dex bonuses get to a level of avoidance where he could rely on it, I'll change my tune. Until then, this game doesn't really have an avoidance tank.
    Stats are likely too low at this point to see heavier and heavier Dexterity/Dodge Rogues running amok, but with a lack of diminishing returns, it won't take much to push into that realm.

    The utilities I see and love about BD are mostly from a damage/CP generation stand point as well as a bit more control. You don't need BD to hold threat or do damage, but BD definitely assists those tremendously. Avoidance gains are a plus, as well as the CD you gain. For me though, the biggest thing that stands out is Weapon Barrage. You have so many specs that just don't have a kick/interrupt, or you have people that don't bother grabbing it. BD's interrupt is ranged and is 5 seconds of awesome silence every 10 seconds. There are bosses that have interruptable casts and the value of stopping that cast completely is hard to quantify, but it is something I definitely would enjoy having as a Tank. I could definitely see going 12 BD/3 Bard for that purpose without sacrificing too much. The deeper stuff opens up more Avoidance (False Blade and Combat Culmination), more damage, and two nifty skills: Disassemble and Disengage. Not everything can be stunned or disarmed, but a lot can, especially the latter, and those do wonders for our damage intake as well.

    The utility option is there for us, but we do sacrifice a lot of EH to get to the lion's share worth of utility. If however acceptable EH is maintained I see no issues going for the utility. Some of the Experts? Naw, early on when you're still just trying to replace sub-lvl50 items and get all evened out, you're probably just too undergeared to be doing anything of the sort and you'll still be a pain to heal too. But once geared and plowing through more quickly for marks and such, or when you come to that boss that has other stuff you need to deal with (and damage on you isn't an issue, and those exist), I'll be keeping a BD spec in my pocket.
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  4. #184
    Shadowlander
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    The 22-26 builds with BD is what is what i put two big posts about supporting and it got lost in the naem calling. I started anothr thread specifially addressing it and a lot of people just posted their specs for comparison.


    as addressed before: BD solves quite a few of the problems listed in the original thread: Aoe threat, solved. Mitigation, much for a bit of loss to damage reduction, but huge mitigation causing spiky-ness, but its what u asked for. Hell you even get WEAPON BARRAGE. I love having a 10 second interupt, couldn't live without it.


    bard gives u health/armor/mitigation and security for the fact you wont ALWAYS have a bard in t2 experts.


    ranger mitigation is there, its nice, but not worth it to me. a few hundred hit points and some mitigation is not a fair exchange for no interupt, no dodge/parry mitigation, lack of dex bonus for that, aoe threat ownage, and a small boost to dps cuz it never hurts.

  5. #185
    Telaran
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    I was reading through here, but after 6 or 7 pages just skipped to end so if my info has already been posted then sorry, I apologize...

    I noticed two major areas of complaint were inability to avoid/mitigate and also inability to AoE really well... There is a soul that does both: Nightblade. They have two very nice AoE's (neither award CP's though) one of them is a 6 sec CD and the other is instant... they also have at 18 points a very nice ability to assist with mitigation... Twilight Shelter (lasts 8 seconds, reduces all incoming damage by 80%, 2 Min CD)...

    Couple that with Riftstalker and BD (for the 50% dodge also), and I think that would probably work very well...

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rxauin View Post
    I'd like some initial pull security. Maybe a 20% dodge that lasts for 5 seconds, but is only applied when we're out of combat or after a rift (call it Planar Attunement). A ranged pull would be wonderful (a reverse rift-warp basically). I think we're also the only tank without an interrupt (unless we go up into the BD tree), though I'd trade an interrupt for an offensive dispel.
    How about a Guarded Shot ability? A ranged attack with a casting time (to make it ineffective in most combat situations) that adds 2 Combo Points and the Guarded Steel effect for 12 seconds.
    Faeblight - Defiant: Ghaeleah, Eladria, Mala, Danoria, Azshannya
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  7. #187
    Soulwalker
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    Default its true

    Yeah i totaly agree with the thread opener.

    I am from Immerwacht germany, got 90% of all shard first on my server (yeah with riftstalker) and i am actually very sad that the rouge is so much lower than all other tanks. (kleric, warri).

    Pls Trion open ya eyes and buff Riftstalker.
    Otherwise i cant be longer the MT of the place 4 ranked german guild. very very sad.

    Hard work....couse of no random drops or tanking t2 set from T2 dungeaons......all gear farmed with blood and time for batches.......that nerv and no buff for rouges is just a punishment.

    Its a selfmade problem, no endgame in beta.........but now listen to the community.

    sry for my english.
    Last edited by Ringd; 03-22-2011 at 05:42 PM.

  8. #188
    Shield of Telara Hellebron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rxauin View Post
    So what would you change about rift tanking?

    Lower RD's cooldown?
    Take off the -30% damage of the stance (with talents)?
    Give healing back?

    I'd like some initial pull security. Maybe a 20% dodge that lasts for 5 seconds, but is only applied when we're out of combat or after a rift (call it Planar Attunement). A ranged pull would be wonderful (a reverse rift-warp basically). I think we're also the only tank without an interrupt (unless we go up into the BD tree), though I'd trade an interrupt for an offensive dispel.

    I know that i've spouted crazy builds for rift tanking before and I've come to realize that they only worked because I'm completely t2 geared as well as my healer and dps.

    I've come to my own conclusion that going out of the 51 point isnt viable for progression and yes I understand this is hotly debated, just my own experience. I also now play with a sab who significantly helps with aoe threat, so it's no longer a huge issue for us.
    It's more of an issue that threat is such an issue with Wars. This whole thread could basically be the single sentence: 'Wars do too much damage', since that's what makes them better tanks currently and allows them to pull threat so easily.

    Another great example was today, last boss of RD expert, I can't attack him while kiting so I basically rely on a single taunt, a single disturbance if I'm lucky, cadence, and just pray the War didn't pull agro. Well needless to say we had several accidents where I lost agro in the kite phase. Never before wished more my build had Rng in it, since I have to imagine that's better threat then a frigging Bard can do.

    I think Riftstalker on it's own is pretty comparable to a Cleric for instance, it's just Wars that cause grief for clerics or rogues tanking currently. I've never lost threat to anyone except a War, not once.

    So I really wouldn't change anything currently. Just that I hope Trion realizes War tanks are beasts now in comparison, and cleric and rogue are going to be relegated to second hand tank tasks pretty regularly at this rate.

    I have some testing where I fought it out with a War at the testing dummy with Pyroblades, then we switched to lvl 1 swords, and simply figured how much threat was needed to pull off from a War with Pacifying vs me using Planar. Should show how the threat is scaling in regards to weapons. I'll post when I get a chance to crunch the numbers.

    I also am going to be MT at Greenscale for our guild tomorrow, attempting to clear 4th boss for the 1st time. I'll post firsthand impressions tomorrow. I'd like to point out I'm MT simply because our other MT War got a T2 Epic 2H and it would be stupid to not have him do his crazy War DPS all over the place.

  9. #189
    Soulwalker Eschara's Avatar
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    My two cents:

    I am full Tier 1 geared. Trying to tank Tier 2's with highly geared DPS is a nightmare. They CONSTNATLY pull agro on the mobs I'm spamming my High Threat on.

    I take WAY more dmg than Warrior and Cleric tanks and my DMG and AOE threat are a joke.

    Please listen to this original poster and fix the Rift Stalker.

  10. #190
    Plane Walker Atavax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fasc View Post
    This is why a BD spec is perfectly acceptable under the right conditions, and so far those conditions are hardly a pain to meet. Unless you have a very much asleep at the wheel Healer or you fail to maintain 100% uptime of RG/GS and FB if you have it or something of the sort, then it isn't a stretch to give up some EH you don't need for some Avoidance that gives you bigger returns, especially if you understand when both builds are appropriate.

    i think this is where your argument falls apart. Why do tanks stack avoidance and mitigation in the first place? to make it easier on the healers. When you said "Unless you have a very much asleep at the wheel Healer", I think you concede that stacking mitigation is making it easier on the healer for the majority of content, then mitigation is king, because thats your job. A tank is measured by how smoothly the instance goes for everyone in it, and if stacking mitigation over avoidance is going to make the healer's job easier, you're a better tank for stacking mitigation over avoidance. The only situations where i see avoidance stacking at all viable is in aoe fights where the large number of hits makes avoidance act like mitigation, or in fights where healers running out of mana is a real concern.
    the beatings will continue until morale improves

  11. #191
    Plane Walker Atavax's Avatar
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    i hope they don't buff rogue threat from what i've seen so far. A dps can always find ways to tweak his dps to get better dps, to be a better dpser. As a tank, i want to be challenged to be a better tank. And no, i don't mean getting better and better gear, i mean, be better at what i do, which is pull, hold aggro, and mitigate damage. The problem is most games make that way too easy for content accessible to people with lives outside of the game.
    I'll admit it, i am not the most hardcore tank out there, i am not raiding yet, or in epics yet, or even 50 yet. I'm 49 atm, and have tanked normal AP and CC along with the majority of dungeons while lvling. I haven't struggled with aoe threat yet; but i look forward to struggling with it in the future and i hope they don't make holding aggro on aoe targets ezmode.
    the beatings will continue until morale improves

  12. #192
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rxauin View Post
    So what would you change about rift tanking?

    Lower RD's cooldown?
    Take off the -30% damage of the stance (with talents)?
    Give healing back?

    I'd like some initial pull security. Maybe a 20% dodge that lasts for 5 seconds, but is only applied when we're out of combat or after a rift (call it Planar Attunement). A ranged pull would be wonderful (a reverse rift-warp basically). I think we're also the only tank without an interrupt (unless we go up into the BD tree), though I'd trade an interrupt for an offensive dispel.

    I know that i've spouted crazy builds for rift tanking before and I've come to realize that they
    only worked because I'm completely t2 geared as well as my healer and dps.

    I've come to my own conclusion that going out of the 51 point isnt viable for progression and yes I understand this is hotly debated, just my own experience. I also now play with a sab who significantly helps with aoe threat, so it's no longer a huge issue for us.
    I completely agree with this. Some initial damage reduction would be really nice, since RS tank can easily drop from full to 20% within seconds of pull if healer is not paying attention.

  13. #193
    Soulwalker Eschara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atavax View Post
    i hope they don't buff rogue threat from what i've seen so far. A dps can always find ways to tweak his dps to get better dps, to be a better dpser. As a tank, i want to be challenged to be a better tank. And no, i don't mean getting better and better gear, i mean, be better at what i do, which is pull, hold aggro, and mitigate damage. The problem is most games make that way too easy for content accessible to people with lives outside of the game.
    I'll admit it, i am not the most hardcore tank out there, i am not raiding yet, or in epics yet, or even 50 yet. I'm 49 atm, and have tanked normal AP and CC along with the majority of dungeons while lvling. I haven't struggled with aoe threat yet; but i look forward to struggling with it in the future and i hope they don't make holding aggro on aoe targets ezmode.

    With all due respect, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You "aren't raiding yet" and you are "not in epics" and you aren't even 50. You probably don't have a background in serious guild tanking. Until you do, please - please - keep silent. Ignorance + silence = wisdom. Ignorance + blabbing = moronic.

    1. Remove the CD on our AOE. - this is a no brainer in the design catagory.
    2. Increase our DPS significantly via the Guardian Talent. Heck - it should boost dps more than stalker phase.
    3. Give us better mitigation - especially out of the gate.
    4. Better itemization. BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK - Gives healing when blocked. All I see is block items and bonuses from items for when you block. How is this helping my Rift Stalker?
    5. Move the healing bonus up the tree and return it to usefulness.

    I want to keep playing this game. I've invested quite a bit of time in it and I do love the class, but I don't love it at the moment. I smashed T1 and now T2 I can't hold agro, die faster than other tanks and am just a 3rd string class.

    I'm the MT on our WOW raiding guild. I've tanked every significant WoW raid event since launch almost six years ago. I know what I'm doing and this class falls well short of being the Rogue Tank you advertise.

  14. #194
    Plane Walker Zayrinoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eschara View Post
    With all due respect, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You "aren't raiding yet" and you are "not in epics" and you aren't even 50. You probably don't have a background in serious guild tanking. Until you do, please - please - keep silent. Ignorance + silence = wisdom. Ignorance + blabbing = moronic.

    1. Remove the CD on our AOE. - this is a no brainer in the design catagory.
    2. Increase our DPS significantly via the Guardian Talent. Heck - it should boost dps more than stalker phase.
    3. Give us better mitigation - especially out of the gate.
    4. Better itemization. BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK - Gives healing when blocked. All I see is block items and bonuses from items for when you block. How is this helping my Rift Stalker?
    5. Move the healing bonus up the tree and return it to usefulness.

    I want to keep playing this game. I've invested quite a bit of time in it and I do love the class, but I don't love it at the moment. I smashed T1 and now T2 I can't hold agro, die faster than other tanks and am just a 3rd string class.

    I'm the MT on our WOW raiding guild. I've tanked every significant WoW raid event since launch almost six years ago. I know what I'm doing and this class falls well short of being the Rogue Tank you advertise.
    I'm seeing a lot of doomsday hyperbole in this thread, and its pretty much completely unwarranted. Rogue tanks have done and continue to do Greenscales Blight in an MT role with no issue. Falls well short? Clearly not.

    Yes, there are potential (read: we don't know the threat modifiers so this is pure conjecture) scaling issues with DPS relative to our TPS, and there is the issue with upfront mitigation. Those are about the only legitimate gripes right now, as far as I can tell.

    Effective Health: 51 Riftstalker/7 Bard/8 Ranger - Avoidance: 36 Riftstalker/8 Bard/22 Bladedancer - Healthy Mix: 51 Riftstalker/7 Bard/8 Bladedancer
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  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fasc View Post
    Except that no one has really proved that it IS a required spec. I don't recommend dropping 51 RS if you feel you are bursting frequently, but that's a huge chunk of gray right there with "feel."

    22 BD isn't a joke spec, that's what you seem to be missing. What it sacrifices for what it gains are perfectly viable choices given the right circumstances, and they need not be overgearing ones either. As much you want to defend 51 RS to the end of your days, you need to be capable of realizing that when you complain about SPECIFIC SHORTCOMINGS that can be countered with a change in specs, you have to concede that point. You quoted AoE and Avoidance issues in the initial post, BD adjusts those things and can do so without causing you to keel over and die.

    Worst Case TTL isn't the end-all metric either, please don't use it as such. If it were then current Tanks would be stacking Stamina on WoW to the end of time, and very few do so. Druids don't even touch Stamina and go exclusively for Dodge/Mastery/Agility, all things that don't even factor in on a Worst Case TTL. The other side of the coin is Average TTL, which DOES account for Avoidance and the like, and comes into play far more often than the Worst Case. The only time that Worst Case becomes the dominant metric to maximize is when you are in the 1-2 shot range consistently, Healer mana has no limit, and HPS is all that matters to them. That's the extreme case that WoW got into mid-late Wrath, which is why no one did anything but EH gains. Even in Experts, those bursty situations are few and far between, unless you aren't prepped or ready for them or your Healer is asleep at the wheel. And I've never advocated gearing less efficiently in order to make up for the inadequacies of the group, they just need to do their jobs.

    EDIT: Oh and if you wanna be technical, you started mudslinging a LONG time before I did.
    Lawl who doesnt touch stamina? Druids in wow? Just coz your buddy reesi who still cant kill Seniestra with 6 days a week rading stacks agi does mean it is good mmk? All top guild druids stacked sta. Get your freaking facts strait.

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