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Thread: Finisher Damage is Disproportionate to Invested Points

  1. #1
    Avi
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    Default Finisher Damage is Disproportionate to Invested Points

    At first I thought this was a tooltip error, but testing on identical mobs over many pulls, i've determined that they appear to be correct. Which means there's very little point to using a finisher at 4 points, unless it just happens to land there. For example:

    Let's take Deadeye Shot, the staple of Markman's burst combo at Rank 1:

    1 Point: 38 damage. [Base for comparison]
    2 Points: 63 damage. [Additional 25 damage]
    3 Points: 88 damage. [Additional 25 damage]
    4 Points: 101 damage. [Additional 13 damage]
    5 Points: 126 damage. [Additional 25 damage]

    So you see, this discourages using the skill at 4, or even 5 combo points, as you gain the least net damage gain for your points. Of course the burst damage increases [Albeit not efficiently], but in the interests of sustained DPS, finishing at 3 points will yield higher overall DPS, even given the higher Energy cost associated with 3 rather that 5 point finishers.

    And this gap is only exacerbated as the ability scales. At rank 8, Deadeye Shot suffers the same loss at 4 points:

    1 Point: 138 damage. [Base for comparison]
    2 Points: 230 damage. [Additional 92 damage]
    3 Points: 322 damage. [Additional 92 damage]
    4 Points: 368 damage. [Additional 46 damage]
    5 Points: 461 damage. [Additional 93 damage]

    The same pattern appears as the ability linearly scales. And if you check your tooltips, you'll find all Rogue finishers behave this way, which leads me to believe that Trion has purposely placed the damage brackets thusly to present players with a choice with their damage expenditure. Either finish at 3 points for optimal consistent DPS, or finish at 5 for more expensive, but higher, spike damage.

    This choice for finishing at 3 points on bosses, rather than 5 has more advantages than just this though. Given that the finisher costs more energy per use, and you're using them more often, in a raid setting abilities such as Anthem of Fervor [Reduces ability costs by 10%] have a greater impact, saving you more Energy than it would on slower, cheaper finishers. Then there's your aggro. Smaller, more consistent hits, more often, generates a far smoother threat curve that's easier for both you and your tank to manage. This means no more million damage screenshots, but also means no more getting one shotted by a raid boss.

    As far as i'm aware, this wasn't the case for Rogues in WoW, which obviously use the same 5 point system. Iirc, their finisher damage simply scaled down toward 5 points smoothly, meaning that at any point threshold, your cost and damage would be commensurate. Just something I thought i'd post for those that hadn't noticed. Definitely something to consider. Happy Stabbing!
    Last edited by Avi; 03-15-2011 at 09:04 AM.

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    Plane Walker am0nr3's Avatar
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    Interesting find, especially if true. The big tradeoff would be how the energy cost would impact your DPS. However, since they don't clearly state the cost of the skill at each combo point, I would be hard pressed to estimate the impact. Is there some way to see the cost of the finisher? I.e. something in the combat log?
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    Plane Touched MightyK's Avatar
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    did you only look at tooltipps?

    more cp = more Ap bonus afaik.


    AND biggest point: finisher use a gcd.

    so you can do 10skills+2x5cp finishers in 12gcd
    or you can do 09skills+3x3cp finishers in 12gcd

    i think 1skill+2 full finishers do more damamge then 3 half finishers

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    Telaran
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    Using Head shot as my finisher I found it to be about a 20-50 dps loss by using it at 3 CPs instead of 5. I gained about 300 damage at 5 CPs and it's cost was 10 energy cheaper than 3 CPs.

    This thread does get me thinking about some of the talents that grant extra combo points on finishers, and even the bladedancer talent that refunds 3 energy for every combo point finisher.

    I wonder if this could be viable with the Opportunity talent in the ranger tree, or Lingering flame in the NB tree. I may have noticed a dps loss because I had to use 3 fillers then a finisher, but maybe if I only needed 2 before the finisher it would be more dps.

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    Rift Chaser Ghoest9's Avatar
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    Isnt the OP missing something?

    By using finisher at 3 instead of 5 you are getting less total combo points per total attacks.

    And for all finishers that arent instants you are more importantly wasting time.
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  6. #6
    Avi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghoest9 View Post
    Isnt the OP missing something?

    By using finisher at 3 instead of 5 you are getting less total combo points per total attacks.

    And for all finishers that arent instants you are more importantly wasting time.
    That's a good point, didn't think about the cast time. Certainly then, it's not viable for all finishers as a blanket statement, but certainly these brackets make some finishers (those that don't give buffs, are instant, and particularly those with talents that give energy refunds) a difference in cost vs. reward when used at 3 vs 5. Like I said in the OP, 3pt finishers would be more viable with Anthem of Fervor, Controlled Fire etc. As this mitigates the increased energy cost. While it's true that most finishers increase the attack power coefficient with more points, unless it increases by the same amount as the depreciation in additional damage of the skill itself, it's still a net loss. Would love to see some damage parses run with each rotation on several finishers, just to see what this yields. There must be SOME reason for the obvious gap in damage gain at 4+ CPs.

  7. #7
    Shield of Telara
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    I dont really understand the point of this post. The only point that we see a significant drop is from 3 -> 4 CP. Yes I understand this is included if you are using a 5 CP Finisher but the drop is not a huge drop the dmg from 3 -> 5 CP finisher is still +43%~ish increase in dmg on the ability you have listed at both rank 1 and 8.

    for DES @ rank 8 we have (3 -> 4 + 46dmg) + (4 -> 5 +93 dmg) = 139 dmg a 43.1% increase in dmg over the WS @ 3 CP.

    The difference in 3 or 5 CP is 2 CP which is either 1 or 2 GCDs (in all likelyhood 1 with the number of 2 CP abilities that most rogues carry) so thats a 43% increase in dmg for 1 extra GCD. Seems worth it to me.

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    Sword of Telara Fasc's Avatar
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    For the Energy reduction per point question (didn't see it answered), AFAIK it is 4 Energy reduction per CP used. For all of my Nightblade finishers, that means going from 40 Energy to 20 Energy. DPE becomes the concern, and in the case of the non-instants, DPE and DPS matter as well.

    If you consider purely instants using just the Nightblade as an example, using just Primal Strike:
    1pt Finish: 30 + 36 = 66 energy every 2 seconds, or 33 energy/sec usage
    2pt Finish: 30 + 30 + 32 = 92 energy every 3 seconds, or 30.666 energy/sec usage
    3pt Finish: 30 + 30 + 30 + 28 = 118 energy every 4 seconds, or 29.5 energy/sec usage
    4pt Finish: 30 + 30 + 30 + 30 + 24 = 144 energy every 5 seconds, or 28.8 energy/sec usage
    5pt Finish: 30 + 30 + 30 + 30 + 30 + 20 = 170 energy every 6 seconds, or 28.333 energy/sec usage

    Obviously a Nightblade would NOT be using just Primal Strike with the slightly more expensive Dusk Strike (40 Energy) generating 2 CPs in the same time frame. But just from the above you can see that Energy usage improves, not gigantically but it does improve. But the big question would be DPE, damage per energy, and the best use of THAT is what will determine the best course of action since Energy is limited.

    So let's assume your weapon does a massive 100 damage by itself, and at max rank Primal Strike adds 77-80 damage, or 78.5 average, so 178.5 per Primal Strike. Blazing Strike has the following stats:
    1pt Finish: 100 + 90 = 190
    2pt Finish: 100 + 149 = 249
    3pt Finish: 100 + 209 = 309
    4pt Finish: 100 + 239 = 339
    5pt Finish: 100 + 299 = 399

    This then translates into:
    1pt Finish: 1x(178.5) + 190 = 368.5 per 2 seconds, or 184.250 DPS
    2pt Finish: 2x(178.5) + 249 = 606.0 per 3 seconds, or 202.000 DPS
    3pt Finish: 3x(178.5) + 309 = 844.5 per 4 seconds, or 211.125 DPS
    4pt Finish: 4x(178.5) + 339 = 1053.0 per 5 seconds, or 210.600 DPS
    5pt Finish: 5x(178.5) + 399 = 1291.5 per 6 seconds, or 215.250 DPS

    Finally, applying the Energy/Sec from before to these DPS values:
    1pt Finish: 184.250/33.000 = 5.58333 DPE
    2pt Finish: 202.000/30.666 = 6.58710 DPE
    3pt Finish: 211.125/29.500 = 7.15678 DPE
    4pt Finish: 210.600/28.800 = 7.31250 DPE
    5pt Finish: 215.250/28.333 = 7.59706 DPE

    So as you can see, more CPs are always advantageous in this most simplistic of models, and believe me this is VERY simple. Energy is a finite resource and managing it properly is paramount as any Rogue Soul. The comment was made in the OP about burst vs steady, but threat should NOT be an issue unless you ramp up your CPs in the first few seconds using special skills and CDs and burst hard in the beginning. Threat is really a non-issue if you have a competent Tank at the helm, and ripping off him doing a normal rotation, especially later in the fight, is more indicative of a Tank TPS failure than a DPS failure.

    Also mentioned was the 10% cost reduction skill. If we redo the same set of calculations from the previous one, instead reducing the energy usage by 10% we get the following:

    1pt Finish: 184.250/29.700 = 6.20370 DPE
    2pt Finish: 202.000/27.600 = 7.31884 DPE
    3pt Finish: 211.125/26.550 = 7.95198 DPE
    4pt Finish: 210.600/25.920 = 8.12500 DPE
    5pt Finish: 215.250/25.500 = 8.44118 DPE

    So even with Anthem or other similar skills, 5pts are STILL better DPE, again using an oversimplified model of just two skills with a single buff.

  9. #9
    Avi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fasc View Post
    Finally, applying the Energy/Sec from before to these DPS values:
    1pt Finish: 184.250/33.000 = 5.58333 DPE
    2pt Finish: 202.000/30.666 = 6.58710 DPE
    3pt Finish: 211.125/29.500 = 7.15678 DPE
    4pt Finish: 210.600/28.800 = 7.31250 DPE
    5pt Finish: 215.250/28.333 = 7.59706 DPE

    So as you can see, more CPs are always advantageous in this most simplistic of models, and believe me this is VERY simple. Energy is a finite resource and managing it properly is paramount as any Rogue Soul.
    Thanks very much for this theory, however simple, it does show clearly that 5, and to a lesser extent 4 CPs is still advantageous to your DPS, but part of my question still remains. Even here in your Energy Per Second values for each point threshold, we see non-linear variations:

    1pt Finish: 184.250/33.000 = 5.58333 DPE [Base]
    2pt Finish: 202.000/30.666 = 6.58710 DPE [1.00377 increase]
    3pt Finish: 211.125/29.500 = 7.15678 DPE [0.56968 increase]
    4pt Finish: 210.600/28.800 = 7.31250 DPE [0.15572 increase]
    5pt Finish: 215.250/28.333 = 7.59706 DPE [0.28456 increase]

    The difference is even more pronounced here, with a huge drop in DPE scaling after just 2 points, and then an increase in efficiency from 4 to 5. My question now is simply, why? Why wouldn't the effective DPE scale smoothly with more combo points added? Or, if anything, make it LESS efficient to finish at lower point levels? Witch Hunters in WAR had a similar issue, in that their Bullet Enchants would add damage to every finisher flatly, regardless of points, encouraging WHs to spam 1pt finishers.

    Obviously this scale will change from skill to skill, as each Rogue builder is different and each finisher is different, but i'd hazard a guess to say that most combinations would yeild similar results, at least that's what i'd expect from Trion's testers. So, i'm just wondering if it's something they didn't really want or need to hammer out, since you do gain DPE with each point, however minuscule that gain is, or is it just an oversight - and they did actually intend for damage across finishers to be more normalised. IMHO, Rogue finishers should be more expensive to use at lower levels, with the DPE returns being far greater at the higher point levels, more strongly encouraging you to build all your points up, since many finishers give a buff or debuff. At the moment, the only mechanic in place to encourage this is the buff duration increasing with points. Perhaps that's enough.

    Anyway, thankyou for all who posted, i'm glad the Rogue forums actually post logical, on-topic responses to things, rather unlike the Cleric forums. Glad we could discuss this.

  10. #10
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    I suspect that perhaps the attack power gain could possibly tip the balance, where point 4's pure damage gain drops compared to others its attack power gain may still make up for it.

    Unfortunately the attack power bonuses are not clearly shown anywhere

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    Rift Disciple Malok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by am0nr3 View Post
    Interesting find, especially if true. The big tradeoff would be how the energy cost would impact your DPS. However, since they don't clearly state the cost of the skill at each combo point, I would be hard pressed to estimate the impact. Is there some way to see the cost of the finisher? I.e. something in the combat log?
    The tooltip updates the energy cost as you gain combo points.

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    Ascendant nand chan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by am0nr3 View Post
    Interesting find, especially if true. The big tradeoff would be how the energy cost would impact your DPS. However, since they don't clearly state the cost of the skill at each combo point, I would be hard pressed to estimate the impact. Is there some way to see the cost of the finisher? I.e. something in the combat log?
    Hover over the spell while building up combo points, the tooltip updates to show the current energy cost.

    Either way, I haven't done the math, but to me it seems like using it at 5 points will probably still be better than using it at 3 points due to the cast time (damage / cast duration = dps), but I'll do the math some day.

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    Ascendant nand chan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nand chan View Post
    Hover over the spell while building up combo points, the tooltip updates to show the current energy cost.

    Either way, I haven't done the math, but to me it seems like using it at 5 points will probably still be better than using it at 3 points due to the cast time (damage / cast duration = dps), but I'll do the math some day.
    Update: I've done the math. When taking into consideration *only* swift shot and deadeye shot, 5 > 3 > 4 > 2 > 1 in terms of combo points.

    5 points: (5 * 74.5 + 461) / 6.5 = 128.23
    3 points: (3 * 74.5 + 322) / 4.5 = 121.22

    When using hasted shot, again 5 > 3 > 4 > 2 > 1. It seems like the boost from 4 to 5 is again large enough to make it pull ahead.

    When using Hit and Run, it's more efficient to use 3x Empowered Shot, 1x Deadeye Shot, probably again due to the 5 > 4 scaling - even though you're throwing a combo point away.
    Last edited by nand chan; 03-16-2011 at 09:21 AM.

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    Thanks for doing the math nand. I'm guessing the difference is even more pronounced for a Ranger using Opportunity with QS/HS?

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    Ascendant nand chan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarrantm View Post
    Thanks for doing the math nand. I'm guessing the difference is even more pronounced for a Ranger using Opportunity with QS/HS?
    4x Quick Shot = 308-320, or 314 average
    Head Shot = 354
    Total time = 5 seconds
    Total DPS = 133.6

    3x Quick Shot = 235.5 average
    Head shot = 283
    Total time = 4 seconds
    Total DPS = 129.625

    2x Quick Shot = 157 average
    Head shot = 248
    Total time = 3 seconds
    Total DPS = 135

    Interestingly enough, the situation changes here. Two times quick shot + one head shot is the max overall DPS with opportunity (basically just one combo point added to the head shot damage).

    It's different mainly due to the lack of cast time. You'll have to factor energy into the calculations if you truly want an accurate result though, I'm too lazy to mathcraft it right now but maybe some day.

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