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Thread: Number crunching and migitation stacking?

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Daex's Avatar
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    Default Number crunching and migitation stacking?

    So how does it work?

    Looking at my own character i got:
    - around 42% migitation from Armor.
    - 35% migitation from Rift Guard.
    - 6% hunter passive
    - 6% rs passive
    - 6% Phantom blow (3x2% stacks)

    How does this all stack/work together?

    Personally i think its works like:
    I get physically hit for 1000 damage.
    1000-42% armor = 580 damage.
    580-35% = 377 damage.
    377-6% = 354 damage.
    354-6% = 333 damage.
    333-6% = 313 damage.

    So a raw hit that would hit me naked for 1k damage would hit me for around 313 fully geared/buffed. This seems to be matching pretty much with what i see in game. So is this how it works?
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  2. #2
    Rift Disciple Daex's Avatar
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    To late to edit my post so i continue here. But i pulled out excel to do some more calculations and yhis would mean that in my situation (with 43% migitation based on all armor +buffs) and 35% from 51Rifstalker -> Improved Rift Guard:

    1000 Physical Unmigrated damage would convert into 308 migrated damage.
    Code:
    1000	-43%	570		(armor)	
    570	-35%	371		(Rift Guard)
    371	-6%	348	2,22	(1st 6% talent)
    348	-6%	327	2,09	(2nd 6% talent)
    327	-6%	308	1,96	(3rd 6% talent)
    1000 Magical Unmigrated damage would convert into 540 migrated damage.
    Code:
    1000	0%	1000		(armor is not usefull for magic so 0%)
    1000	-35%	650		(Rift Guard)
    650	-6%	611	3,90	(1st 6% talent)
    611	-6%	574	3,67	(2nd 6% talent)
    574	-6%	540	3,45	(3rd 6% talent)
    That beeing said. If this is true im wondering if its really worth it to go the famous 51RS/7Bard/8Ranger build i was talking about in a different post. Since the 8 ranger would only add.
    - 5% health
    - 1.96% migitation against physical damage
    - 3.45% migitation against magical damage.

    Where those 8 points would give:
    - Side step (temporarily 50% buff to dodge)
    - 5% dodge
    - False Blade (+5% dodge finisher)
    - 100% Strike back (so nice to keep aoe aggro)
    - Twin Strike/Reprisal/Quick Strike (to increase dps)
    - Combat Pose (40 dex buff)
    Last edited by Daex; 03-15-2011 at 03:25 AM.
    Dont forget to check out my poems/lyrics: Saboteur Poem / Saboteur Lyrics.
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  3. #3
    Rift Disciple Daex's Avatar
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    So no one else tested anything about how this stuff is stacking? Or has an oppinion about it? Would really have some input if other people did some testing too?
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  4. #4
    Champion of Telara
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    I am pretty positive..

    Get hit-->Armor Mitigation-->Reduction-->Absorbs.

    Cause the same way it goes with spells-->Get hit-->Resistance-->Reduction-->Absorbs.

    Basically..

    Your 42%-->The 6% x 3 times-->Rift Guard.


    And the BD spec seems better only for 1 reason.. "Oh Sh-!" button..Aka Side Steps.. Plus it makes mass mob tanking trivial for a few seconds i checked both..

    Sure the extra health is good..6% reduction also for a single boss fight with no adds or anything..but 10% Ddoge and "Oh Sh-!" button is good and its true power appears when Adds pop.
    Last edited by potis; 03-15-2011 at 08:28 AM.

  5. #5
    Plane Walker
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    Just FYI you forgot the 50 resist base you get for guard phase.

    At my level with my resists thats a bonus of about 10% for magics.

    Not that it changes anything that you are talking about.

    I believe all of the numbers stack if they say %, but if they say base number then you have issues.

    IE if it says +50 resist. Then its going to add it to your resist number and it will not be as effective as giving 10% resist even when going from 0 to 50 resist = 10%

    Same with dodge. If it says +200 dodge. Then going from 0 to 200 gives 10%. But going from 100 to 300 does not equal +10%. It comes out to like 13% dodge or something. So getting +10% dodge would be better.

    Also armor bonus we get from guardian phase ONLY APPLIES TO ARMOR, not buffs.

  6. #6
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    Armor/Magic Defenses grant damage reduction, as do the talents/Phantom Blade. Everything else I've seen have shown +% buffs being additive, not multiplicative. So, without evidence to the contrary, it is safe to presume that the DR talents and Phantom Blade are added to DR from Armor/Magic Defenses.
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  7. #7
    Sword of Telara Fasc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KahnyaGnorc View Post
    Armor/Magic Defenses grant damage reduction, as do the talents/Phantom Blade. Everything else I've seen have shown +% buffs being additive, not multiplicative. So, without evidence to the contrary, it is safe to presume that the DR talents and Phantom Blade are added to DR from Armor/Magic Defenses.
    While I'm not disproving you, I am skeptical that our Armor% would just directly add to passive Damage Reductions, minus Rift Guard/Barrier. That's a tremendous amount of damage reduction added up, especially when you start adding things like Motif of Tenacity (5% Damage Reduction) and skills/talents that reduce mob/boss AP/SP.

    I haven't gotten a chance to conclusively tell how and where damage reductions add or multiply, and in what categories things like Resists vs Generic Damage Reduction vs Block and so on fall into.

    I'll get around to it at some point but for now, nothing is too hard or punishing to split hairs over exactly how they stack (and consequently what builds are better and why), even at the Raid level as far as I've read. Just go with a heavy 51-RS build and call it a day, grabbing either BD/Ranger/Bard in some combination for more Health/Avoidance/Damage Reduction.

    I'm sticking with BD/Bard for now but I might change later, not sure. I really like having the faster CP generation from Reprisal and the extra finisher to maintain for 10% Avoidance, along with the Side Steps CD. I'm not really a huge MUST HAVE HEALTH kind of guy unless I see a need for it.

  8. #8
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    There are lots of possible ways that it can be applied, and as far as I know, no one has tested it to be sure which is correct.

    It's pretty clear that DR and Armor together are not purely additive, since you'd be taking ~5% damage with 42% armor mitigation.

    If I had to guess, with no testing, I'd say that flat DR talents are additive, i.e. resilience, bolster, and phantom blow, and then armor and absorbs are multiplicative with that.

    With your armor, and a base damage of 1000, I would expect to see something like 1000 * (1 - 0.18) * (1 - 0.35) * (1 - 0.43) = 304 damage.

    Edit: The other possibility (aside from your original proposal) is that RG stacks as well, which would be 1000 - (1 - 0.53) * (1 - 0.43) = 268 damage.
    Last edited by PessimiStick; 03-15-2011 at 12:32 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fasc View Post
    I'm sticking with BD/Bard for now but I might change later, not sure. I really like having the faster CP generation from Reprisal and the extra finisher to maintain for 10% Avoidance, along with the Side Steps CD. I'm not really a huge MUST HAVE HEALTH kind of guy unless I see a need for it.
    I'm actually wondering about a BD/RGR combo (either 8/7 or 8/8 with 50 in RS). The End buff from the bard can be supplied elsewhere, and you're skipping 5% Health for 4% DR (With 8/8, you are sacrificing 1% End and 0.5% absorption for 2% extra DR). However, I am a mitigation junkie.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PessimiStick View Post
    There are lots of possible ways that it can be applied, and as far as I know, no one has tested it to be sure which is correct.

    It's pretty clear that DR and Armor together are not purely additive, since you'd be taking ~5% damage with 42% armor mitigation.

    If I had to guess, with no testing, I'd say that flat DR talents are additive, i.e. resilience, bolster, and phantom blow, and then armor and absorbs are multiplicative with that.

    With your armor, and a base damage of 1000, I would expect to see something like 1000 * (1 - 0.18) * (1 - 0.35) * (1 - 0.43) = 304 damage.

    Edit: The other possibility (aside from your original proposal) is that RG stacks as well, which would be 1000 - (1 - 0.53) * (1 - 0.43) = 268 damage.
    It is possible that Armor/Defense, Direct DR, and Absorption are applied in some order. However, having each separate source of DR being applied in subsequent order is unlikely imo.
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  11. #11
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    So I was going to look into this a bit more today, and I'm getting hung up before I even start in on damage reduction mechanics.

    I grabbed a level 41 wolf to test with, stripped naked, and let him attack me. His "Maul" special with his damage buff up was hitting me for 175, 176, or 177 damage. Call it 176. This is with 0 armor, and a DPS spec with 0 DR abilities.

    Then I put my DPS gear back on, with the same spec. The tooltip shows 2013 armor (23.65% DR). I added up the armor on my gear manually, and I still get 2013. 23.65% armor gives an expected damage of 176 * (1-0.2365) = 134.3 damage. However, I'm actually getting hit for 128 damage. That correlates to an expected armor value of 27.27%, considerably higher than my actual listed armor.

    I could collect some more data with my RS spec and DR talents/Rift Guard, but at this point I'm already confused and I only have 1 variable...

    Edit: In my RS spec with the +armor talent, I have 27.27% Armor... hopefully that's just a coincidence.
    Last edited by PessimiStick; 03-16-2011 at 06:39 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PessimiStick View Post
    hopefully that's just a coincidence.
    Haha, I certainly hope so.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    This thread is frightening: http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...shot-inside%29

    Perhaps the reduction is additive after all. There's so much this is unknown and likely buggy--there's a big thread in the general forums about how armor isn't functioning consistently (at all?) in pvp.

  14. #14
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    Wow, that's disturbing.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantone View Post
    This thread is frightening: http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...shot-inside%29

    Perhaps the reduction is additive after all. There's so much this is unknown and likely buggy--there's a big thread in the general forums about how armor isn't functioning consistently (at all?) in pvp.
    I wasn't seeing that behavior with RS skills. I'm not sure exactly what was going on, but it clearly wasn't flatly additive.

    Code:
    E1	E2	E3	E4	Actual	Armor	DR1	DR2	DR3	RG	Raw Damage
    176.00	176.00	176.00	176.00	176.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	176.00
    134.38	134.38	134.38	134.38	128.00	0.2365	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	176.00
    106.88	112.64	113.11	106.88	108.00	0.2727	0.06	0.06	0.00	0.00	176.00
    93.83	101.15	101.57	93.83	95.50	0.3469	0.06	0.06	0.00	0.00	176.00
    83.27	94.26	95.47	88.20	90.00	0.3469	0.06	0.06	0.06	0.00	176.00
    21.67	61.27	62.06	57.33	58.00	0.3469	0.06	0.06	0.06	0.35	176.00
    12.99	56.64	57.37	52.03	54.00	0.3962	0.06	0.06	0.06	0.35	176.00
    										
    E1 = Damage * (1-(Armor+DR1+DR2+DR3+RG))										
    E2 = Damage * (1-Armor) * (1- (DR1+DR2+DR3)) * (1-RG)										
    E3 = Damage * (1-Armor) * (1-DR1) * (1-DR2) * (1-DR3) * (1-RG)										
    E4 = Damage * (1-Armor+DR1+DR2)*(1-DR3)*(1-RG)
    E1 is the expected damage if everything was additive. None of my formulas appear correct, but that's most likely due to the weird behavior with only armor that I mentioned earlier. In any case, E1 is clearly NOT the model that the game uses as far as Riftstalkers go.
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