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Thread: The REAL Problems and Solutions for the Sabotuer

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default The REAL Problems and Solutions for the Sabotuer

    Yes there are many threads on the subject, and yes there are many idiots talk about the subject. However more egregious than the QQers *****ing without reason are those who blindly defend the sabs as balanced, which they clearly are not. The best way to highlight the problems with the Sabotuer (Sab from here on out) is to answer the wide spread "excuses" given in defense of them. Read any thread about Sabs and you'll here these responses.

    Worth pointing out I won't be addressing any "l2p" responses since they do not account for any objective problems/solutions and is a worthless response to anything. If you really think somebody needs to l2p then post the "correct" way to play and we'll see if you're full of **** or not.

    Excuses for Sab in a PvP environment:

    1. "Just cleanse/dispell the charges off."

    - The vast majority of souls do not have a dispell. Even among Clerics, less than half get dispell.

    - Non-rogue dispells are NOT ENOUGH. As i'm sure you know rogues have a lower GCD than other classes. Therefore even if a Sab and cleric are in a race to charge/dispell the Sab will ALWAYS win. Not only are you fighting a losing battle, the cleric then becomes useless to the group since he is no longer healing. So please, stop saying "just cleanse the charges noob" since all you do is highlight your own ignorance.

    2. "Just CC the sab and kill him. He is a glass cannon."

    - He is not a glass cannon. If you think that you don't know how games work. He is a KITING class. The pyromancer is a glass cannon. The Sab is like a MM: he is a kiting class. This means he has the tools to keep distance. Case in point: he has a talent which decreases duration of most CC by 50%. That is huge.

    - He has many powerful CCs, being a kiting class. He has multiple AOE snares.

    - I'll admit CC is going to be the best way to counter Sabs but that is the same for all kiting classes. The difference is the other ones don't get the upfront dmg of the Sab.

    3. "The damage isn't instant. He is useless while applying charges."

    - The idea that charges don't do dmg until you detonate being bad is a misnomer; it is actually a good thing. The main reason is that one big spike is inherently better than doing dmg in intervals. If you do dmg in intervals then healers can account for that. They can heal the dmg you did at the start of the rotation by the time you get to the end. However with one big spike healers can no longe mitigate it at ALL (unless they turn into cleanse bots which means they aren't healing). A spike means that 100% of dmg of the rotation is there at the end of a rotation. Any other class can have a large chunk of that dmg healed back before the rotation is done.

    - The lack of dmg lets them set charges without breaking CC. There are many CCs in thsi game which break on dmg. Sab then can set up an entire rotation worth of dmg on somebody without breaking that CC. This is especially broken when combined with a Dom who has the +50% dmg talent for transmog.

    4. "It takes forever to put up charges!"

    - Rapid ****ing setup. Have any of you read this ability? It's an absolute joke. http://rift.zam.com/en/ability/815585515/Rapid-Setup . This lets you instantly get 5 charges AND 5 action points. If you have 5 charges on the target you get 2 detonates and a head shot instantly. That WILL kill 90% of people in 3 seconds.

    - As a rogue he will always get up charges (and hence the full dmg of detonate) faster relative to other classes trying to charge up a big attack.

    - Since his charges (with talent) will outrange most all attacks he can get charges started quicker since he can engage from a further distance.

    5. "Wait until lvl 50 PvP before you start whining."

    - See rapid setup.

    - You don't have to pvp at 50 to know this class is broken because of the talents. Their talents are % based buffs to their abilities which means they scale well. For example, there is a talent which lets blast charge ignore 50% of armor. That means that even if a class has 5000 armor it remains super effective.

    - They also have % based buffs to detonate and the dmg of all charges. Charge booster also increases their dmg even more (20% basically).

    - At 50 the class becomes even stronger because of more points to put into other points. I think the Sab gains more from other souls than your normal build because he gains more ways to keep people at a distance. Since he can do the most dmg in the game as long as he is left alone, then if he has more tools to stay alone he will do even better, relative to other classes.

    Possible Solutions:

    In my opinion the real problem with the Sab is the fact it is a kiting class rather than a glass cannon. It should NOT have this level of firepower but remain so mobile and use instant attacks for everything. The MM and Ranger already fill the role of the kiting class so it seems redundant to the 3rd degree to have the Sab also fill that role.

    One change that most people would agree is very reasonable is putting a cast time on detonate. If mages have to use long cast times to do even less dmg than the sab, then the least Trion could do is put a cast time and force Sabs to stop jumping around constantly while still doing massive dmg.

    Another possible solution is decreasing the range on charges. Forcing sabs to get closer to their enemies would make them much more susceptible to CC and would help to balance the dmg. Having a talent which increases the range on charges is exactly the wrong thing to do. It would be much more fair if all charges only had a range of 15. If not charges, decrease the range on detonate.

    Some people think a CD should be put on detonate but I think that would be too much. It would gimp the class if they were unable to use their main mechanic for long portions of a fight.

    TLDR: The Sabs main problem is that it is a kiting class with the dmg of a glass cannon. There are problems with this class and it needs to be changed because while I wouldn't call it "overpowered," i'd certainly say it isn't balanced and it is too easy to be successful with. I've only listed a couple of possible changes but i'd like to hear other possible (and reasonable) changes to this class.

    If you think the class is fine you are either ignorant, stupid or a Sab.
    Last edited by OnSlaught411; 03-03-2011 at 03:08 PM.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    I understand your complaints and see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's possible to do a proper assessment on a class until a good portion of the player base has hit level cap. Even in the 30's, you're running into plates with in excess of 4k health. Sure, a Sabo is going to be able to easily spike down a mage, rogue, or an undergeared cleric, but those classes are meant to die easily in exchange for their potentially massive damage output. I really think that their DPS output will mellow near cap; Trion can't have put something so obviously broken into RIFT intentionally, or even unwittingly.

    That being said, I do like your idea of having a cast time on Detonate. Instant cast for such a large damage spike is almost unheard of. Hell, a Pyromancer's most damaging spells have in excess of 2 seconds cast time.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple
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    Just to point out;
    Rapid setup does NOT allow us to put an optimal charge stack on people. Every sab should have charge booster, which makes it FAR more effective to put multiple *different* types of charges on someone.

    Your claim that rapid setup will allow us to one-shot most people is utter baloney. A properly optimized stack of differing charges + annihilation bomb + finisher is likely to be 70 or 80% of someones health at best- unless that other player is much lower level.

    A non-optimized stack isn't going to do anything near that.

    And let's keep in mind that rapid setup has a 60 second cooldown. And is a 51-point talent. And seems to be what you're complaining about the hardest.

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    Telaran tehmickey's Avatar
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    not only is rapid setup the last ability we get in the entire class, but you act like it's something special that only sab gets. many classes have equivlent abilities.

    most of your arguments are incredibly one sided and closed minded. a proper answer cannot be reached without input on both sides, not a long winded rant that is wrong half the time but keeps going anyway.

    as an example. you went on for a while about clerics not being able to out-dispell charges. lets say they buffed cleric dispells so they could 1 for 1 completely neutralize the rogue's charges. why would that be balanced or right? a dps class would then literaly do 0 dps, EVER, to another class with no options? what do you think that cleric's team is doing during that time? 1 cleric making 1 sab completely unable to fight for an entire fight while said cleric's team gets to beat on the sab makes no sense. the kind of headway the sab makes now on a cleric spamming dispell is minor in the first place but at least allows for SOME damage. getting to eek out 1 detonation every so often isn't gamebreaking.
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    Plane Walker ShimmerSniper's Avatar
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    Well you know, all of us who argue against him are stupid, he said so.

    I'm running around with my sab in the black garden. So far I've heard if I got chemical bomb, I win. Well I have that.. and I don't win. I also heard I'm suppose to be the highest damage guy in there.

    A mm, warrior, and 2 other people I forgot beat me in damage done. Hell that ranger popped out of no where and oneshotted me with his gun.. (cause I didn't pay attention to the 5 other blows he did against me.)

    I'm constantly being plagued with pets going after me while the character hides behind something.. usually the rest of the party.

    It takes 3-4 times for me to actually blow someone up. There isn't any one shoting, except for maaaabey that level 12 mage that was in the black garden today.

    Granted, I don't have charge booster, but that isn't suppose to do anything right? I mean after all, I'm just suppose to be able to spam 111112 and win every time doing 6-8k damage with detonate in this bracket.

    Really the only reason I even ranked as high as I did in damage was cause of many AoEs, I'm throwing splinter charges, timebombs, chemical bombs, adhesive bombs constantly. (Really wish I had a better keyboard there are so many different charges and bombs I want to use.)

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    Plane Touched Humble's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    I only post in these topics so that Trion doesn't listen to the complainers. I think everything in this game is great and it would be nice if us, as players, would actually try to sit down and enjoy the game for a month before judging it and stating that it needs to be fixed.
    Last edited by Humble; 03-03-2011 at 04:32 PM.
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    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehmickey View Post
    not only is rapid setup the last ability we get in the entire class, but you act like it's something special that only sab gets. many classes have equivlent abilities.

    most of your arguments are incredibly one sided and closed minded. a proper answer cannot be reached without input on both sides, not a long winded rant that is wrong half the time but keeps going anyway.

    as an example. you went on for a while about clerics not being able to out-dispell charges. lets say they buffed cleric dispells so they could 1 for 1 completely neutralize the rogue's charges. why would that be balanced or right? a dps class would then literaly do 0 dps, EVER, to another class with no options? what do you think that cleric's team is doing during that time? 1 cleric making 1 sab completely unable to fight for an entire fight while said cleric's team gets to beat on the sab makes no sense. the kind of headway the sab makes now on a cleric spamming dispell is minor in the first place but at least allows for SOME damage. getting to eek out 1 detonation every so often isn't gamebreaking.
    Rather then making amibigous statements about me being wrong, how about giving specifics? Just saying "you're wrong" isn't an argument. Looking at your example, this is a bad trade for 2 reasons:

    1. The team losing the cleric is hurt more than the team losing the sab (assuming they cancel out for a period of time). Every class can do dmg but not every class can heal. We all know how vital healing clerics are but if they are stuck trying to take off charges rather than casting HoTs or instant heals, etc., the team is losing out. If I was playing a Sab i'd be delighted to know I just shut down a cleric completely. Other classes could only pray to do as much so easily.

    2. It isn't a wash. The sab WILL EVENTUALLY GET HIS CHARGES UP. That is the entire point of the GCD difference. Even if it's only 1 charge at a time, he will not be doing no damage. Given enough time (in a 1v1) he will eventually get 5 charges up. In group combat it would be very easy for him to get 2 or 3 up and casting a detonate while the cleric keeps dispelling.

    As for the other people in the thread focusing on Rapid Setup. It doesn't make anything else I put in the OP untrue. Even if we accepted Rapid Setup as not being game-breaking, which i don't see how it can be anything but just reading the tooltip, it doesn't change the numerous other things I mentioned in my post pointing to a problem with the class.

    Also, lol at the person who says an optimal charge would "only" do 70-80% of somebodies health. The fact you can type that with a straight face (I assume as much since there was no jk or lol after it) then it points to something being wrong with the way people view this class.
    Last edited by OnSlaught411; 03-03-2011 at 04:40 PM.

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    Telaran styrfry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnSlaught411 View Post

    1. "Just cleanse/dispell the charges off."

    - The vast majority of souls do not have a dispell. Even among Clerics, less than half get dispell.

    - Non-rogue dispells are NOT ENOUGH. As i'm sure you know rogues have a lower GCD than other classes. Therefore even if a Sab and cleric are in a race to charge/dispell the Sab will ALWAYS win. Not only are you fighting a losing battle, the cleric then becomes useless to the group since he is no longer healing. So please, stop saying "just cleanse the charges noob" since all you do is highlight your own ignorance.

    Ok, another idiot on the forums. The sab will very RARELY win the dispel race. Stop repeating gutter trash you heard from other forums and or people. Ever heard of a thing called energy rogues use? Yeah, they run out of that a lot quicker than Clerics run out of mana. Rogue GCD is 1 second, but it takes rogues 2-3 seconds to recharge 30 energy for blast charge. GG.

    Really, you just showed your own ignorance. Way to go.
    Last edited by styrfry; 03-03-2011 at 04:44 PM.

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    Lol apparently you can't edit your own post after 5min.

    I reread the post I quoted and realized the 2nd point I made against it didn't apply as he was talking about a hypothetical. As such the first point remains. On top of that, such a change doesn't seem possible since there GCD change is build into the class mechanics. Unless they gave the cleric a no-CD multiple dispell (which may be too powerful) it would be an impossible hypthetical.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnSlaught411 View Post

    2. It isn't a wash. The sab WILL EVENTUALLY GET HIS CHARGES UP. That is the entire point of the GCD difference. Even if it's only 1 charge at a time, he will not be doing no damage. Given enough time (in a 1v1) he will eventually get 5 charges up. In group combat it would be very easy for him to get 2 or 3 up and casting a detonate while the cleric keeps dispelling.
    A warrior in the clerics face will be just as distracting as saboteur harassment. And if the cleric is actively cleansing sabo charges, there are two things to note:

    1. While our GCD outstrips the clerics ability to cleanse, our energy regen does not. Eventually we'll run out of sufficient energy to put additional charges, and then be stuck at one charge every 1.5 seconds because that is the rate our energy regenerates at, matching the cleric's GCD. Not to mention if you were engaging in a race between charge-tossing and cleansing, whatever charges we DID manage to get up and detonate, the damage from THAT would easily be healed with a single Bard's AoE healing.

    2. If the cleric or ANYONE else on their team decides to do something about the sabo, such as run from range, use LoS, use a ranged ability on us, etc etc etc.... we're not going to be able to keep chucking our charges every GCD. We'd be STUPID to do that. There are much better things to do.

    Your argument is insane.
    "OMG, A CLERIC CANNOT 100% STOP A ROGUE FROM DOING ANY DAMAGE". "OMG, IF HE WERE TRYING, HE WOULDNT BE HEALING".

    FFS. Quit whining and go play.

  11. #11
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    I wanna know what lvl you are. Cuz at lvl 37 main sab in WF i dont one shot anyone, not even close, i might get 60-70 percent os a clerics hp down, but guess what, hell insta heal to full before i can blow him up again. Sure if a cleric dispells ill eventually get my charges up and denonate, but that will take alot longer than the normal 6 secs, hence youve combated most of my dmg and most likely im now gettin beat down by your teams mates. Most clerics will also run back into his team mates, making me either wait for him to come to the front again, or switch targets, your complaining about something thats not a big deal anymore, almost everyone has a huge hp pool 35+. Its hard to one shot people now, Quit complaining and lvl.
    Last edited by Weapon21; 03-03-2011 at 04:52 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by styrfry View Post
    Ok, another idiot on the forums. The sab will very RARELY win the dispel race. Stop repeating gutter trash you heard from other forums and or people. Ever heard of a thing called energy rogues use? Yeah, they run out of that a lot quicker than Clerics run out of mana. Rogue GCD is 1 second, but it takes rogues 2-3 seconds to recharge 30 energy for blast charge. GG.

    Really, you just showed your own ignorance. Way to go.
    Put this in context. Yes rogues have an infinite pool of energy which they sometimes have to wait to recharge. Yes clerics have finite mana which gets low all the time in team PvP. Those are the parameters of the discussion.

    Now look at it in practice. A few things happen. Oh, and this assumes you even have dispell. Doesn't change the fact the majority of souls have little recourse.

    Even if the Sab has to stop casting for half a second to wait for energy then all it does is let the Cleric catch up AT BEST. Every single round of charge/dispell the Sab gains half a second. This adds up over time and means the Cleric has to take bites out of the charge # just to try and keep even every time the Sab is waiting on energy.

    Now extend this across time. If it's 1v1 and it goes on for 5min then the Cleric runs out of mana and the Sab, having infinite energy, can go on forever. In group PvP a few things happen. For starters the Cleric is now not healing. He is being cancelled out by a single rogue pushing a single button at distance. Great trade for the Sab.

    Second, the Sab has the ability to gain an edge by switching targets within the group. He can easily tab between targets and throwing on charges on different targets to get an edge over the Cleric, who does not know who is next. This just exacerbates the Sabs advantage.

    Third, Clerics very rarely have high mana in group pvp. Even if we accept your premise that the Sabs dmg is being negated by that cleric, beyond the fact the cleric wans't healing his group for that amount of time, the Sab ends up draining a large amount of mana from the Cleric, again serving his group in defeating the others. You beat the enemy healer you beat the team.

    Fourth, again if we accept your premise, there should not be a class WHICH REQUIRES YOU TO SPAM DISPELL JUST TO NOT GET DOMINATED. There may be a way to beat them but it requires infinitely more work to beat a sab then it takes for him to kill you. No class should be designed that way.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puckey View Post
    Your argument is insane.
    "OMG, A CLERIC CANNOT 100% STOP A ROGUE FROM DOING ANY DAMAGE". "OMG, IF HE WERE TRYING, HE WOULDNT BE HEALING".
    What is insane is the prospect that this is true. Based on your own post that is the case. Anyone with half a brain knows healers are the keystone to any pvp team and if a sab can force the cleric to choose between allowing his team to take massive spikes and not healing others and dispelling instead then you've given yourself an advantage over that team.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon21 View Post
    I wanna know what lvl you are. Cuz at lvl 37 main sab in WF i dont one shot anyone, not even close, i might get 60-70 percent os a clerics hp down, but guess what, hell insta heal to full before i can blow him up again. Sure if a cleric dispells ill eventually get my charges up and denonate, but that will take alot longer than the normal 6 secs, hence youve combated most of my dmg and most likely im now gettin beat down by your teams mates. Most clerics will also run back into his team mates, making me either wait for him to come to the front again, or switch targets, your complaining about something thats not a big deal anymore, almost everyone has a huge hp pool 35+. Its hard to one shot people now, Quit complaining and lvl.
    Posts like this only help my argument. SIXTY TO SEVENTY PERCENT?! Really? So if you crit him he'd die right?

    I mean just think about what you people are saying. "Its hard to one shot people now." The fact you can even type that is absolutely absurd. As if it is at some point? Or that it should be? Or that the thought that you can 1 shot people in any scenario is in any way balanced or reasonable? If this is the mindset rogues have then clearly there is something wrong.

    Also, here we have a Sab admiting that even vs dispell he'll eventually get his charges up. Bye bye 1v1.

    No other class can make a cleric run in fear like the Sab can because none can bring that pure firepower.

    And once again nobody responds to the many other things I mentioned in the OP, like the fact their type of dmg is inherently much better than other classes and should not be on a kiting based class + other things.
    Last edited by OnSlaught411; 03-03-2011 at 05:03 PM.

  15. #15
    Telaran styrfry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnSlaught411 View Post
    Put this in context. Yes rogues have an infinite pool of energy which they sometimes have to wait to recharge. Yes clerics have finite mana which gets low all the time in team PvP. Those are the parameters of the discussion.

    Now look at it in practice. A few things happen. Oh, and this assumes you even have dispell. Doesn't change the fact the majority of souls have little recourse.

    Even if the Sab has to stop casting for half a second to wait for energy then all it does is let the Cleric catch up AT BEST. Every single round of charge/dispell the Sab gains half a second. This adds up over time and means the Cleric has to take bites out of the charge # just to try and keep even every time the Sab is waiting on energy.

    Now extend this across time. If it's 1v1 and it goes on for 5min then the Cleric runs out of mana and the Sab, having infinite energy, can go on forever. In group PvP a few things happen. For starters the Cleric is now not healing. He is being cancelled out by a single rogue pushing a single button at distance. Great trade for the Sab.

    Second, the Sab has the ability to gain an edge by switching targets within the group. He can easily tab between targets and throwing on charges on different targets to get an edge over the Cleric, who does not know who is next. This just exacerbates the Sabs advantage.

    Third, Clerics very rarely have high mana in group pvp. Even if we accept your premise that the Sabs dmg is being negated by that cleric, beyond the fact the cleric wans't healing his group for that amount of time, the Sab ends up draining a large amount of mana from the Cleric, again serving his group in defeating the others. You beat the enemy healer you beat the team.

    Fourth, again if we accept your premise, there should not be a class WHICH REQUIRES YOU TO SPAM DISPELL JUST TO NOT GET DOMINATED. There may be a way to beat them but it requires infinitely more work to beat a sab then it takes for him to kill you. No class should be designed that way.

    I like how to try to rationalize your thought with a bunch of hypothetical scenarios that NEVER HAPPEN in PvP. Sab and Cleric do not exchange dispel/charges for 5 minutes, somebody comes along and a brawl occurs. Dispel does not drain the cleric dry, mana drains do.

    Seriously, this is a pvp game. Things have counters. Do you know how annoying it is as a Sab to try to kill an enemy flag carrier who is being dispelled/healed by more than 1 healer? It's nearly impossible.

    These souls are not balanced around a 1v1 vacuum like you think exists in this game. Learn 2 play/use shields.

    Just because Sabs are > your spec, doesn't mean Sabs are invincible. But I'm sure you'll QQ more to try to make a point. Tell me more about how sabs have infinite energy and that we can stack charges all day long and still do nil damage. No other class has that "benefit", as you see it.
    Last edited by styrfry; 03-03-2011 at 05:14 PM.

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