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Thread: Bards, unnggh

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Bards, unnggh

    First off, I'd like to state that I played a plethora of Bards in Dark Age of Camelot and was thrilled to see this classic archetype brought back into an MMO in a form that did it relative justice. I muscled through the days of carpal tunnel inducing instrument swapping and song twisting in pve and pvp. If this rings a bell to you, I know your pain.

    Now, DAoC was a different game, with a different combat system and not a lot directly correlates to a game like Rift. However, there's something to be said about the disparity in group sizes as it relates to the time spent "playing" your songs (aka, casting Motifs). When one person in a group spends the majority of their time twisting for 7 others, it's fairly justifiable, but not when only four are gaining that same benefit. In order for Bards to bring the meat and potatoes of their support in a dungeon environment, we need to be able to put up all of our motifs and spend the remaining time helping to heal and control the fight - especially in more difficult content. It's great when your group realizes the time needed to put up motifs and the tank coordinates to pull just after you've done so, but unfortunately fights dont always last 25 seconds.

    I propose the following changes to Bards and Bard talent tree, in hopes it could be reviewed point for point by anyone who chooses to do so (maybe someone who works for Rift <3):

    Bardic Inspiration - Each point increases motif duration by 9 seconds, up from 3.

    Street Smart - Changed to a max of 2 talent points. Each point decreases your chance to be hit and critically hit by 3%, up from 1%, for a total of 6%.

    Stage Presence - Changed to a max of 3 talent points. Each point increases the effectiveness of Fanfares by 10%, up from 6%.

    Street Performer - Changed to a max of 3 talent points. Each point increases the effectiveness of Anthems by 10%, up from 6%.

    Improved Anthem of Competence - The effect of your Anthem of Competence is now gained while playing any other Anthem, and affects party members while in combat. (Note: Does not include raid members.)

    New talent added in the 7th tier, next to Verse of Fascination and Resonance:

    Amplification - Max of 5 talent points. Each point increases the range of all Bard abilities by 2 meters. In addition, for each point spent your Power Chord will snare the target by 10/20/30/40/50% for 3 seconds.


    Thank you for reading, your consideration, and your constructive comments.
    Zipi @ Greybriar
    <Mutiny>

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Default Hmm

    I'm a full bard build and to be honest, don't have any problems with casting my motifs. I get them up and have plenty of time to lay down casts inbetween. I do like alot of your ideas. just sick of bards complaining of "Carpal Tunnel." Its really not that difficult. At least for me.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple badalchemist's Avatar
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    I'd be happy with putting each of the motifs on a short cooldown so that they could all be put into one macro.

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    I agree, and my carpal tunnel comment was strictly held in context to old DAoC twisting. ;)

    When my group is only relying on me for buffs and damage, I really have no problems with it, either. The problem is when they are relying on me for backup heals in an encounter-based environment, which is most often the case. The 6 or 7 seconds that I'm not healing with Cadence, not building combo points to get off group heal finishers, is the 6 or 7 seconds that will make or break the fight. That can be offset with abilities like Virtuoso, for instance, but that only holds water once every 3 minutes.
    Zipi @ Greybriar
    <Mutiny>

  5. #5
    Telaran MaxDawnblade's Avatar
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    With your suggested changes Bard will become the flavour of the month class. You're asking for way too high percentage increases.
    "No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path."
    - Buddha

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    I play a full support Bard as well, and I do agree that casting so many motifs and so often does get annoying after awhile, and I do agree that something is needed to help solve this, such as longer durations, or an ability with a cooldown that allows us to play multiple motifs at once.

    However, while I understand your argument about the motifs, only one of your proposed solutions does anything to solve the problem. I'm not sure the point of the rest of the abilities you've modified and/or created, but they don't seem to provide anything other than pure ability benefits, which I don't think is something Bards necessarily need.

    Since Motifs are never going to fall off anyway, since they just have to be recast, how about causing Power Chord to increase the duration of active Motifs by X seconds, or simply just reset the durations. This would at least give a use to Power Chord which, generally, goes unused right now, and nothing else would have to be done to effect talent stat boosting or the like.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Sarer's Avatar
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    Jylea... TNO Bard?
    Sare - 45 Rogue | Sarerishor - 2x Cleric
    Sarer - 1x Warrior | Sareryshor - 1x Mage
    < The Vatican >

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    It's been awhile since I've felt your DAoC(EQ) pain... Couple of thoughts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jylea View Post
    Bardic Inspiration - Each point increases motif duration by 9 seconds, up from 3.
    Why 9? I know ideally I'd like to have more than 30 seconds on mine as well but at this point we do not know if there are items end-game that will do this very thing... bardic items that will extend motifs. Might be a bit early in release to be asking for this type of change and such a drastic one at that. I personally would rather they change the way motifs use the GHD and just remove them from it, so our motives are instant cast and have no recovery time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jylea View Post
    Street Smart - Changed to a max of 2 talent points. Each point decreases your chance to be hit and critically hit by 3%, up from 1%, for a total of 6%.
    I'm all for this but you know PVP's would be ripping up the forum about OP

    Quote Originally Posted by Jylea View Post
    Stage Presence - Changed to a max of 3 talent points. Each point increases the effectiveness of Fanfares by 10%, up from 6%.

    Street Performer - Changed to a max of 3 talent points. Each point increases the effectiveness of Anthems by 10%, up from 6%.
    I don't see the need to change the point requirement here from 5 down to 3 and a 4% increase doesn't seem irrational but again, why do we need to boost it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jylea View Post
    Improved Anthem of Competence - The effect of your Anthem of Competence is now gained while playing any other Anthem, and affects party members while in combat. (Note: Does not include raid members.)
    Eh... I can see how it would be useful but more of a bonus request than something to actually help our class support groups/raids. Quite honestly, I think the amount of the bonus on Competence is almost useless as normal running speeds are almost nearly identical unless running very long distances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jylea View Post
    New talent added in the 7th tier, next to Verse of Fascination and Resonance:
    Amplification - Max of 5 talent points. Each point increases the range of all Bard abilities by 2 meters. In addition, for each point spent your Power Chord will snare the target by 10/20/30/40/50% for 3 seconds
    IMO, any new ability to add to the Bard tree would almost have to be something to regen power, its the one thing we really lack and make us even more lovable by all.

    I do like some of this and I'm not against upgrading classes, but I personally would hate to see Trion making changes to classes with significant ability upgrades/degrades before the game really has a chance to stretch it's legs.

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    Drax,

    The other changes were intended for pvp. Basically the net benefit of the Fanfare/Anthem change is the same - 30% with maximum points. I probably went overboard with Street Smart, but honestly at only 3% it feels like a worthless talent with very little returns per spent point whose sole purpose is to finish the tree to get Verse of Joy. It just frees up allotment value to include a 5 stack talent high up in the tree to help put Bards in line with other ranged classes.

    Right now, bards get out-ranged by every other ranged class. Since beta they've made a change to Coda of Restoration which makes it only usable up to 20m away from your target. It's incredibly easy to Line-of-sight or run away from a bard when you are the one with combo points on you, leaving the Bard fairly neutered in terms of being able to heal themselves. While it isn't my intent to ask for Bards to be able to take on ranged classes 1v1 - especially since no change I described involved increasing Bard damage - I do hope to that Bards are entitled to defend themselves on somewhat even footing.

    20 meters is precarious, as it puts us dangerously close to melee that are able to use "close the gap" abilities, and just out of range of dps classes that can assault us with impunity.
    Zipi @ Greybriar
    <Mutiny>

  10. #10
    General of Telara
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    I played a bard in EQ, and yes I did in reality get carpal tunnel. you want to talk about short duration buffs lol look at those. But ... I wouldnt mind them making my job easier, but as was stated earlier if you make it to easy your going to have a bard-bot on everyones leash in every raid,group,WF etc. The same thing that happened when EQ implemented /melody and autotwisting. Every raid ended up having a 2 boxed bard that sat in one place and autotwisted buffs. Granted a truly skilled bard was still a valuable comodity but not completely irreplacable anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by June View Post
    Many have quitted, they are lost almost half of the servers they started. I hop in next MMO for sure. Rift is awesome game but PVP is just crap.
    Lol really now?

  11. #11
    Soulwalker Ganzo's Avatar
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    I think that adding a high tear, trainable Coda which refreshes duration of motifs, based on combo points consumed would be the best solution for prolonged fights without making Bards op.
    [SIGPIC]http://sigcdn.siglaunch.com/sigs/rift/26091/rift-forum-signature.png[/SIGPIC]

  12. #12
    Sword of Telara Mr Malingers's Avatar
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    While I wouldn't mind a longer duration on motifs i think you're implying there is a problem where none exists.
    You have more than enough time to maintain all of your motifs and contribute with Cadence and your finishers.
    Youll spend what 5 seconds every 30 keeping them up? Leaving 25 to do everything else.
    Maybe he just wanted to steal our wire cutters. You ever think of that?

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imas View Post
    IMO, any new ability to add to the Bard tree would almost have to be something to regen power, its the one thing we really lack and make us even more lovable by all.

    I do like some of this and I'm not against upgrading classes, but I personally would hate to see Trion making changes to classes with significant ability upgrades/degrades before the game really has a chance to stretch it's legs.
    I touched upon some of your comments in my reply to Drax, but I wanted to respond to this. I agreed with you completely until playing around with Anthem of Fervor. With it, Bards have essentially endless energy and actually recover energy while casting Motifs.
    Zipi @ Greybriar
    <Mutiny>

  14. #14
    Plane Touched
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    I've dabbled in most of the souls in this game, and Bard is IMO the most powerful soul that I've played. There's nothing it can't do. Great buffs, good heals, decent dps, and great survivability.

    Giving a buff to this soul would be complete insanity.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Out of curiosity, how many of you have played a Bard past level 19? =)
    Zipi @ Greybriar
    <Mutiny>

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