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Thread: Sab Fix...Not a whine thread.

  1. #1
    Telaran Rithas's Avatar
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    Default Sab Fix...Not a whine thread.

    Just saying...for a regular dps to do the damage they do with a crit, it wouldn't take a few crits...It would require that every single one of their attacks crit. Thats what happens when a Sab crits. This makes Sabs do either good damage all at once or Godly damage all at once. They need four things and I will be fine with them:

    1. Make Detonate a cast time ability
    2. Allow for individual Blast Charges to crit. So Sab damage isn't 1.7k or 3.1k. Make their crits like Blast Charge critically hits x3 for 2.4k.
    3. Make charges do 1 damage on application, so as to break incap effrects.
    4. Lower Charge duration from 1 min to 10s, refresh duration on re-apply.

    Also, you say that the target has 6s to prepare for the damage, only healing clerics can dispel the charges and due to GCD they cannot do it faster than Sabs can apply them, therefore it isn't a "counter" The main problem with Sab's is they heavily outdps other dps classes and they nullify healing due to it being all burst damage. Other DPS souls do their damage staggered out therefore it is healable. They also do this while not losing any mobility. Combined with Blind Powder or Dark Containment, they get a guaranteed kill. This is unacceptable. I think that covers all of it.

    #2 wouldn't be a problem because Lurking Decay from Cabalist already functions in this way
    Last edited by Rithas; 03-02-2011 at 09:46 AM.

  2. #2
    Plane Walker ShimmerSniper's Avatar
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    1. Make Detonate a cast time ability
    Detonate in early levels is the only way the sab can actually effectively do damage. even with bombs and the like later on that the anti-sabs clamor about they are often too slow and clumsy to fight with, nor do they really do much single target damage. (Cause they are AoE based)

    I've yet to see a person get killed via non-damaging slowing effects only.

    2. Allow for individual Blast Charges to crit. So Sab damage isn't 1.7k or 3.1k. Make their crits like Blast Charge critically hits x3 for 2.4k.
    First off, the damage needs to be separated for each charge, so that a more accurate view is given.

    And yes, if it is currently doing all or nothing crit, that does need fixing.

    3. Make charges do 1 damage on application, so as to break incap effrects.
    If you ever played sab, you would notice that there is a non-aggro ability. This would effectively kill the non-aggro ability, which results in an ability that may or may not change how sabs operate even more in pvp and possibly for the worst for the non-sabs.

    4. Lower Charge duration from 1 min to 10s, refresh duration on re-apply.
    10 seconds is far too short. It being that short, results even further in spammacity of the charges.

    I know what you are wanting to do here, but this isn't the answer. A better answer would to be to tie the blast charges to the combo charges. If for any reason the combo charges are lost, the blast disappear as well.

    This negates stupid stuff like people throwing off another classes finisher, then following up with apocalypse bomb.

    Then when you break LoS and the sab either waits or chases you, you have effectively eliminated him from throwing more charges, even if it doesn't specifically save you it would be a great help to your team. Then even the sab switches targets, you still wasted up to 5 seconds of the sabs time applying the charges in the first place.


    Blast charges ability should be moved up, and the non-aggro dropped down. Then blast charge should be changed to where it no-longer pierces armor, but increases damage based on the amount of armor. This would mean the cloth types, would be able to "tank" sabs damage when its done right, but heavy armor types would still be scared. Leathers sit in the middle.

  3. #3
    Eep
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    Lets be honest. Its just blast charge.
    Look at the tooltip and compare it to the other charges to see why people whine.

    When you stack other charges they dont really compare. Dont get me wrong there will be ways for sabos to still pull off silly burst but so can bards :P

    Blast charge needs a nedrf and the talents that effect it do too.

    personally id love to have the limit of all charge types stacked made to 3 but the charge total at 5 so people had to just mix the charges.
    Last edited by Eep; 03-02-2011 at 11:00 AM.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker ShimmerSniper's Avatar
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    Thats why I suggested my change to its ability.

    If it doesn't pierce armor, instead is increased in damage against high armor, then it does it what its original intention was (Hitting high armored classes) and would be tankable by low armor classes. If done properly of course.

    Often the charges are very situational. IF you are fighting a single target, why would you use shrapnel charge? If the target is too tough, I'd rather use spikes. If there is a chance he'd run at me, I'd use caltrops.

    I do believe that physical is the greatest resisted damage type as well. As an alchemist, I'm already making potions to resist 800+ points of physical damage. My druid has an ability to resist physical as does my riftstalker.
    Last edited by ShimmerSniper; 03-02-2011 at 11:05 AM.

  5. #5
    Prophet of Telara Albane's Avatar
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    The only issue people have with Blast Charge/Detonate combo is that you cannot heal the damage it does and avoiding it is impossible for most classes. In most cases, a sab just waits until someones health is at 50% and hits detonate for an instant killing blow.

    Name another class that can take 4 seconds to build up an attack and then fire it off from 50m for 50% of your life instantly?

    I think charges should have a 5 second debuff time, then they should fade. This will allow people the opportunity to counter sabs in PvP with CC, while not weakening them at all for PvE.

  6. #6
    Plane Walker ShimmerSniper's Avatar
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    the 5 second timer is even worse than the 10 second and still falls into the same pitfall of forcing them to spammit now.

    If they lose the combo charges and it causes them to lose charges would be much better.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander Atillius's Avatar
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    What level are the folks who are crying about Sabs? I am curious because for anyone who plays sab will tell you that as you progress in the levels against higher level players...Sabs skills become much less effective verse all types of healing and armor abilities. I barley scratch most who are even a level above me due to potions, drinks, and additional healing abilities. Sabs were terrible to play around beta 2 or 3....just terrible and have been 'buffed' since. The class is not a pancea for PvP not is it op. Try playing the class in th3 30+ pvp wfs.....even with epic gear a sab will melt from any other class before they can get all the charges off and detonated.

  8. #8
    Eep
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    36 m8.

    shoo


    Thing is the damage of the other charges are inline with the rogue finishers. detonate is also inline with the rogue finishers.

    Blast charge is double/triple(talented) the damage. i rolled sabo for levelling. chatting with guildies they said that its a class that is hard to fix because its about burst. Bit playing it you can see theres jsut one real change thats needed. It just might make the class a bit bland once it happens.

    Basically they should bring blast charge inline with the other charge dmg and maybe add a component. i like a knockback but any decent debuff etc that we dont currently have.

    then make the blast charge talent work for all charges. so improved dps across the board with a big nerf to the one crutch that we all have to use becaause its fecking awesome atm :P
    Last edited by Eep; 03-02-2011 at 11:30 AM.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander Draik's Avatar
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    Like you stated sabs blasts either all crit or none do. How does that need fixing? Sabs have a chances to set EVERYTHING up over 10 to 15 second And not get one crit on any damage. The ppl who want to "fix" sabs often have never played one, and only see the effect of one dropping you from half hp to zero hp. Sabs that are caught in a 1 v 1 situation almost always lose if you can't flee. Since the beginning of time people complain about all forms of rogues in some way shape or form for being "cheap" when in fact that what rogues have to do. If rogues dont have their CD's up or the ability to ambush ppl or have an unfair advantage then they die, that's how the class is and always will be. If you were to nerf blast charge or change sab to not have the burst then the class would not exist because they would be worthless.

    The only reason that sabs are under the microscope right now is because they are about the only thing that kills ppl before a heal gets off, where every other class can poor all their damage and CD's into killing someone and a bard or cleric can keep them up with ease. But truth be told a sab cannot solo anyone from Full HP to dead if they have heals. Sabs are really just an execute finisher type class.

    I'm trying to write this on an iphone in class so if there are lots of typos plz ignore them. Just trying to defend a class that really isn't OP just ppl don't know how to face one. Everyone seems to have the mind set that if something kills them then that class is OP instead of trying to figure out a way to beat them. Sabs are easy to beat If u just focus them. They have no survivability and the charges can be ALL dispelled with the push of 1 sterilize, and wardens are the anti-sab with the hot that dispels every 2 seconds.

    Basically don't say a class is OP and need a nerf because they killed you, different classes require different strategies to face so just learn how to beat them.

    P.S. That spear throw warrior craps DESTROYED me when he focused me because I was unable to kite him.


    I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, It's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, And that enables you to laugh at life's realities.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    I would think seeing how things pan out at 50 would be a pretty good idea. Right now people have crap armor and resists for the most part, and clerics who can cure the charges seem to not do so for the most part still.
    Tiddilywinks - Captain Rogue of Irony

  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    Here was my suggestion. I think its quite brilliant honestly.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...tion-for-SAB-s

  12. #12
    Rift Master Brizyrr's Avatar
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    People need to come to the realization of facts:

    1. No high level players complain about Saboteurs unless they have terribad gear.

    2. Nothing is going to be nerfed or fixed. Nothing has been nerfed or fixed for all the betas or headstart or even launch. These threads have been here since beta 1.

    3. Saboteurs have been buffed throughout all the betas and headstart.

    ---------------

    As you can see, I rest my case. However, you guys should be focusing on something else. The Trapper is a talent that gives Saboteurs no cool-down on their traps. I can perma-root you whenever I want. I can also spam a 300 damage trap every second right next to you, and you don't even have to move to set it off. That should be fixed a bit.

  13. #13
    Shadowlander Atillius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draik View Post
    Like you stated sabs blasts either all crit or none do. How does that need fixing? Sabs have a chances to set EVERYTHING up over 10 to 15 second And not get one crit on any damage. The ppl who want to "fix" sabs often have never played one, and only see the effect of one dropping you from half hp to zero hp. Sabs that are caught in a 1 v 1 situation almost always lose if you can't flee. Since the beginning of time people complain about all forms of rogues in some way shape or form for being "cheap" when in fact that what rogues have to do. If rogues dont have their CD's up or the ability to ambush ppl or have an unfair advantage then they die, that's how the class is and always will be. If you were to nerf blast charge or change sab to not have the burst then the class would not exist because they would be worthless.

    The only reason that sabs are under the microscope right now is because they are about the only thing that kills ppl before a heal gets off, where every other class can poor all their damage and CD's into killing someone and a bard or cleric can keep them up with ease. But truth be told a sab cannot solo anyone from Full HP to dead if they have heals. Sabs are really just an execute finisher type class.

    I'm trying to write this on an iphone in class so if there are lots of typos plz ignore them. Just trying to defend a class that really isn't OP just ppl don't know how to face one. Everyone seems to have the mind set that if something kills them then that class is OP instead of trying to figure out a way to beat them. Sabs are easy to beat If u just focus them. They have no survivability and the charges can be ALL dispelled with the push of 1 sterilize, and wardens are the anti-sab with the hot that dispels every 2 seconds.

    Basically don't say a class is OP and need a nerf because they killed you, different classes require different strategies to face so just learn how to beat them.

    P.S. That spear throw warrior craps DESTROYED me when he focused me because I was unable to kite him.
    Absolutly correct. The class is a pure support class...a glass cannon. Every class has damage finishers inline that do way more then a sab could wish to. I have yet to get someone say 3-5 levels above me to insta- pop...like you say...maybe 50% health even with a crit...by the time I get charges reapplied my target is at 100% and I am usually dead. Its the same for all sabs.

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple Shadowvail's Avatar
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    Like you stated sabs blasts either all crit or none do. How does that need fixing? Sabs have a chances to set EVERYTHING up over 10 to 15 second And not get one crit on any damage. The ppl who want to "fix" sabs often have never played one, and only see the effect of one dropping you from half hp to zero hp. Sabs that are caught in a 1 v 1 situation almost always lose if you can't flee.
    I can't agree more. People are not seeing the fact that we do NO damage while stacking charges. Take a melee class for example. They are doing damage the whole time that they are stacking combos. They can crit on ANY of these melee strikes. We only have the ability to crit when we detonate.

    The half to zero comment is what pisses everyone off that isn't a sab. I'm sorry but this is a terrible excuse why you should be crying about our class. You just NOTICE our damage more because it hits you all at once. It gives you less of a chance to heal than if a melee attacker was critting or white damaging you individually.

    Stop whining. The class is working as intended.


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  15. #15
    Ascendant nand chan's Avatar
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    I don't agree with the rest of your suggestions at all, but I agree with #2: charge damage should be separated.

    After all, they nerfed crit Strafe by changing the way DoTs work, so they should nerf crit Detonate as well by changing the way charges work.

    Either that or I want my crit Strafe instant kill back.

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