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Thread: Weapon Damage is Very, Very Wrong

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Ellandess's Avatar
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    Default Weapon Damage is Very, Very Wrong

    I've kicked this off here because I need a dev to somehow get this information. It's from another thread here.

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    OKAY!

    Got the results in from 6 duels on willing victims exactly the same level as me (lvl 39) a mixture of classes - so many thanks to anyone that said they'd help in Meridian today

    In all cases, I was using Virulent Poison (+dmg proc), Lethal Poison (+dmg and +crit chance proc) and Shrouded Rune.

    And it is bizarre, something is definitely broken.

    With:
    • Shop bought, 2x level 18 basic daggers: stated specs: 7.5 DPS, 9-18 damage every 1.8s
      - DPS was between 283 to 288.
    • Shop bought, 2x level 18 basic swords: stated specs: 7.6 DPS, 11-21 damage every 2.1s
      - DPS was between 313 to 320.

    There are NO stat boost on either of these weapon sets.

    So, it seems that, even with the 0.1 dps difference on the dagger, I do indeed (and quite bizarrely) do more damage with swords than with daggers.

    Now here's the twist...

    With the following weapons (the ones I currently use):
    Blackheart Ripper (dagger lvl 33), DPS 14.7, 18-35 every 1.8s (Str+7, Dex+11, End+7, AtkPwr+10)
    Final Justic (axe lvl 38), DPS 16.7, 28-52 every 2.4s (Str+9, Dex+13, End+8, AtkPwr+10)
    I did only 320.3 DPS average.

    Summary
    • It appears that equal swords do more damage than equal daggers.
    • My level 33/38 weapons did exactly 0.3 DPS more damage than the level 18 swords.

    Something broken???? Ummmmm...yeah.

    No wonder assassin is finding it a little tough.
    Last edited by Ellandess; 03-02-2011 at 07:09 AM.

    Rift n. r-ift (pl. rifts) A 'rift' is what opens up between you and your wife when the game is live.

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  2. #2
    Telaran
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    How are you calculating DPS is my first question. Did i miss them allowing addons? because if not there is no way you could be that accurately calculating DPS that quickly.

    We also need to know what kinds of abilities you are using, lower DPS but higher damage weapons are usually preferable as most of you damage comes form abilities that do weapon + extra or a percent of weapon damage so DPS doesn't matter is actual damage.

    With that being said I have done my own testing with my rouge (back in beta actually) and while I don't have data near as accurate as you, I can tell you that I DEFINITELY improved my DPS with higher damage weapons, it was significant, very very significant increase in damage.

    Also the level of the mobs you were fighting need to come into play, you'll get a higher DPS on lower level mobs, especially with more crits, so if you calculated DPS on mobs or players around meridan with the shop bought weapons, but your level 30+ weapons were tested on mobs later on, that will significantly change your results
    Last edited by Bloodyneck92; 03-02-2011 at 07:16 AM.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple Ellandess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyneck92 View Post
    How are you calculating DPS is my first question. Did i miss them allowing addons? because if not there is no way you could be that accurately calculating DPS that quickly.
    Advanced Combat Tracker was used to parse the damage logs and the encounters, it's posted on these forums in General.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyneck92 View Post
    We also need to know what kinds of abilities you are using, lower DPS but higher damage weapons are usually preferable as most of you damage comes form abilities that do weapon + extra or a percent of weapon damage so DPS doesn't matter is actual damage.
    I used the exact same skill rotation, buffs and procs and over the 18 fights (6 people, 3 weapons sets each) the damage was parse for each fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyneck92 View Post
    With that being said I have done my own testing with my rouge (back in beta actually) and while I don't have data near as accurate as you, I can tell you that I DEFINITELY improved my DPS with higher damage weapons, it was significant, very very significant increase in damage.
    Mine improved, but only by 0.3 dps average.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyneck92 View Post
    Also the level of the mobs you were fighting need to come into play, you'll get a higher DPS on lower level mobs, especially with more crits, so if you calculated DPS on mobs or players around meridan with the shop bought weapons, but your level 30+ weapons were tested on mobs later on, that will significantly change your results
    As I said above, they weren't mobs. They were other players, 6 different players a variety of classes in duels where they didn't move or react.
    Last edited by Ellandess; 03-02-2011 at 07:22 AM.

    Rift n. r-ift (pl. rifts) A 'rift' is what opens up between you and your wife when the game is live.

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  4. #4
    Shadowlander
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    Default Weapon + Damage

    Perhaps I am wrong and forgive me if I am but I have seen numerous threads that Weapon + DMG is no longer calculated with a weapons base DMG but instead it's DPS # - so if your sword has higher base DMG but the same DPS value as a dagger they will do the same DMG with all factors equal. However, as a 'Sin I use two daggers so that the 1.8 speed will proc more poisons than a slower weapon.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Bloodyneck is assuming he increased his dps due to bigger numbers, but faster and more often procs/crits will always out dmg big number weapons. I bet if he parsed it he would be amazed that he probably did alot less dmg with his slower but higher dmg weapons.

    I switched from high dmg weapons to 2 daggers, and wow such a huge difference in PVP.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple Ellandess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chri5 View Post
    Perhaps I am wrong and forgive me if I am but I have seen numerous threads that Weapon + DMG is no longer calculated with a weapons base DMG but instead it's DPS # - so if your sword has higher base DMG but the same DPS value as a dagger they will do the same DMG with all factors equal. However, as a 'Sin I use two daggers so that the 1.8 speed will proc more poisons than a slower weapon.
    The combined daggers had a dps of 15, the sword 15.2 buy my own weapons have 31.4. I'm far more concered that the additional 16 strength, 24 dexterity and 20 attack power made seemingly, no difference at all. Regarding your comment on daggers proccing more, I thought the same thing, which is how this test came about - it seems they don't - swords did more damage.

    Rift n. r-ift (pl. rifts) A 'rift' is what opens up between you and your wife when the game is live.

    PC Black :: CPU Yes :: GPU Two thingies :: SOUND Pretty good :: OVERCLOCK A nice mirror :: WINDOWS 14, all double glazed

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Ellandess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maevin View Post
    Bloodyneck is assuming he increased his dps due to bigger numbers, but faster and more often procs/crits will always out dmg big number weapons. I bet if he parsed it he would be amazed that he probably did alot less dmg with his slower but higher dmg weapons.

    I switched from high dmg weapons to 2 daggers, and wow such a huge difference in PVP.
    I did the same Maevin, I always assume that faster weapons proc better because they have a higher chance to proc - but it appears that isn't the case. I did better damage with the slower swords and procced as frequently.

    Rift n. r-ift (pl. rifts) A 'rift' is what opens up between you and your wife when the game is live.

    PC Black :: CPU Yes :: GPU Two thingies :: SOUND Pretty good :: OVERCLOCK A nice mirror :: WINDOWS 14, all double glazed

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple gammexane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellandess View Post
    I did the same Maevin, I always assume that faster weapons proc better because they have a higher chance to proc - but it appears that isn't the case. I did better damage with the slower swords and procced as frequently.
    Glad to know I was not crazy
    welcome back to burning cruzade lol.
    Rock is overpowered.
    Paper is fine.
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  9. #9
    Champion of Telara
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    Something broken???? Ummmmm...yeah.
    Broken? Yes. The following are broken:

    1. You tested DPS in a duel against various opponents with differing armor levels.

    2. You tested "DPS" rather that specific damage measures to make a judgement on what the relative contribution of weapon damage was to attacks.

    3. You tested with poisons on, which are a blatant RNG factor and easily removed.


    Your tests are kinda weak bro. Please try again.


    Perhaps I am wrong and forgive me if I am but I have seen numerous threads that Weapon + DMG is no longer calculated with a weapons base DMG but instead it's DPS #
    You're wrong. Most people that post on the forums are ****ing ******ed, including the legions of idiot sheeple that spout "WAPON DAMAEG IZ NOMALIZED", and make their own ignorant assumptions. So, take those kinds of claims with a grain of salt -- check the beta patch notes where they made the change. Trion specifically said they made the damage "more normal", not equal.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    Six duels is not a reasonable sample size from which to draw any kind of conclusion.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Ellandess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
    Broken? Yes. The following are broken:

    1. You tested DPS in a duel against various opponents with differing armor levels.
    Yes I did. A varied test pool is required for any test to mitigate any outliers and to ensure that the armour effects can be balanced across the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
    2. You tested "DPS" rather that specific damage measures to make a judgement on what the relative contribution of weapon damage was to attacks.
    Damage per second is the cumulative result of all damage over the fight divided by the number of seconds the fight lasted for. It's a perfectly viable test with which DPS is measured, which was the point of the test. Which part of this don't you get?

    Quote Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
    3. You tested with poisons on, which are a blatant RNG factor and easily removed.
    The entire principle of MMO combat is random number generated. Everything works on percentages and effects to that. Again, what's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
    Your tests are kinda weak bro. Please try again.
    My tests are perfectly valid. I'm not your bro. I'm happy to try again if it brings about confirmation.


    Normally, I wouldn't answer a post from someone who hijacks threads with malformed ideas of their own. I only did so in the interest of your education. Please move along.

    Rift n. r-ift (pl. rifts) A 'rift' is what opens up between you and your wife when the game is live.

    PC Black :: CPU Yes :: GPU Two thingies :: SOUND Pretty good :: OVERCLOCK A nice mirror :: WINDOWS 14, all double glazed

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple gammexane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
    Trion specifically said they made the damage "more normal", not equal.
    So, in summary swords are a better choice than daggers. (I mean Daggers vs swords with the same dps).
    Rock is overpowered.
    Paper is fine.
    -Scissors -
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bammzle View Post
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  13. #13
    Rift Disciple Ellandess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildfyre010 View Post
    Six duels is not a reasonable sample size from which to draw any kind of conclusion.
    6 players with 3 different sets of weapons is 18 duels in total. Averaging 50 strikes per fight thats 900 hits.

    I haven't drawn a conclusion other than the dps difference between; 8 silver, level 18 weapons with no stats and expensive, blue drops at level 38 with many stats and crafted runes is 0.3

    Either the damage tables are wrong or the economy is pointless.

    Why you pay 5 plat for a crafted, runed weapon when you could lose 2 dps (example) from buying shop weapons for 18 silver each.

    Rift n. r-ift (pl. rifts) A 'rift' is what opens up between you and your wife when the game is live.

    PC Black :: CPU Yes :: GPU Two thingies :: SOUND Pretty good :: OVERCLOCK A nice mirror :: WINDOWS 14, all double glazed

  14. #14
    Shield of Telara Ashnazg's Avatar
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    What were the autoattacks like? E.g. what % of your damage came from AA's on dagger vs AA's on sword

  15. #15
    Shadowlander Ishniana's Avatar
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    You need to calculate in Weapon Speed into your proc factors. Faster weapons do not proc more than slower weapons per say. Many games base proc % on weapon speed and give slower weapons a higher % change to proc to try and "normalize" procs.

    For example in EQ2 proc % is a base rate + skill raises x base weapon speed (not hasted speed) resulting in slower weapons procing insanely more than fast weapons.

    Also you should only use autoattack to base your dps calculations off of since skills are "weapon dmg+x dmg" resulting in slower weapons with higher base dmg to make your skills deal more dmg.

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