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Thread: Primalist Masteries!

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
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    Post Primalist Masteries!

    Ok, so starting another discussion about the masteries.
    And how they are (under)performing atm.

    So for healing, primalist uses Nature's Blessing or Ancestral Force, depending on the situation.

    Here are 5 highest crits out of Nature's Blessing done in a 20-man raid.

    Code:
    ATTACKTYPE         	DAMAGENUM  	CRITICAL  
    Nature's Blessing  	22428      		True        
    Nature's Blessing  	22428      		True        
    Nature's Blessing  	21748      		True           
    Nature's Blessing  	21660      		True           
    Nature's Blessing  	21341      		True
    Heres 5 highest crits out of Divine Favor done in a 20-man raid.

    Code:
    ATTACKTYPE    	DAMAGENUM	CRITICAL  
    Divine Favor  	39673		True     
    Divine Favor  	38413		True    
    Divine Favor  	38191		True      
    Divine Favor  	37631		True     
    Divine Favor  	37600		True
    Over 10 minutes Divine Favors had 507 swings, while Nature's Blessings had 250 swings.

    Nature's Blessing
    EncHPS: 2*358,39
    Average: 5*537,50

    Divine Favor
    EncHPS: 6*906,48
    Average: 8*351,06

    --


    Now lets take a look at Spiritualism and compare it to mages, warriors and rogues.
    And remember that mages, for some reason, arcane manipulation gets boosted by different buffs and cds.

    Code:
    ATTACKTYPE          		DAMAGENUM	CRITICAL  
    Arcane Manipulation  	54360      		True           
    Arcane Manipulation  	53892      		True           
    Arcane Manipulation  	52286      		True           
    Arcane Manipulation  	51929      		True          
    Arcane Manipulation  	51429      		True       
    
    ATTACKTYPE          		DAMAGENUM 	CRITICAL 
    Power Manipulation		26844        		True    
    Power Manipulation		26604         	True       
    Power Manipulation		25421         	True      
    Power Manipulation		25378         	True       
    Power Manipulation		25367         	True       
    
    ATTACKTYPE          		DAMAGENUM  	CRITICAL  
    Energy Manipulation  	25381      		True          
    Energy Manipulation	24816      		True           
    Energy Manipulation	24664      		True           
    Energy Manipulation	24056      		True           
    Energy Manipulation	23975      		True 
    
    ATTACKTYPE    		DAMAGENUM	CRITICAL 
    Spiritualism 		13489         	True           
    Spiritualism  		13489         	True           
    Spiritualism  		13489         	True           
    Spiritualism  		13442         	True           
    Spiritualism  	 	13442         	True

    Then we have Savage Blow now, wich would be quite nice and good actually to use in some specs. If it actually would interract with the focus and not just be a GCD ability, that breaks rotations.

    It would be best, to make Savage Blow to work as Icefall and Corpsefall currently does, so that you can implement savage blow into your rotation without delaying important stuff or having downtime on your abilities. As it is now, you need to use it each 8-12 secs, wich is 1 GCD that delays everything you do, no matter where you are in the focus.

    But lets say it gave 20 fury when used in cunning and 20 cunning when used in fury then it would be viable to use in dervish, in vulcanist and even BVD!

    -

    Ancestral Force
    Is giving the right values, but is delayed to compared to the others similair abilities.



    So devs, now this has been written alot of times, in several posts and we havnt heard or seen any response about masteries for Primalists so far.
    Can we get a fix for this in January?
    Last edited by Aeral; 12-18-2015 at 10:13 AM.

    Aenomaly former <Fires of Heaven>
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  2. #2
    Plane Touched Kapnia's Avatar
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    10/10 agree with this. Fix masteries pls!
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    What is the methodology for testing procs? You don't mention which 20 man raids are you bringing the data from.

    Nature's blessing is tuned around a 1 second gcd whereas divine favor is tuned around a 1.5 second gcd. If you are not proccing nature's blessing as much as divine favor, you are relying on nurture which only procs it on the 1st tic.

    There is no real reason to increase spiritualism damage if overall primalist dps is in a good spot. Different classes function differently. Who knew it.

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    Plane Touched arbaal's Avatar
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    First and foremost great post. I believe these will be addressed in Jan

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    Telaran Aylen's Avatar
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    Default Great info and agree

    As it currently stands Ancestral Force is the only mastery worth using and while Spiritualism isn't meant to be much more than a slight boost in DPS it currently has nearly no use, meaning it's a 1k diff between someone with NO lvl 65 MASTERY and someone with Spiritualism... huh? lol?

    Regardless of where a class stands overall your reward for hitting level 65 shouldn't be a near useless ability.

    In addition to Aen's suggestion for Savage Blow, which I agree is definitely one way to handle it, another would be to keep the functionality as it currently is but either increase the duration to 15s or reduce it to 10s and boost the DPS slightly. Not only does it consume a GCD without giving benefit to the Focus bar, but... It also is a weird duration with the rotation in mind and obviously lacks DPS. Both 10 and 15s durations would work far better than the current 12.

    Essat - I'm going to assume you don't/haven't played Preserver very much, but... Yeah, it's the one spec you don't fully take advantage of the 1s GCD beings ALL of your GCDs are abilities with cooldowns and Nurture is meant to be your filler. Thus Nurture(filler) not proccing your healing mastery properly = broken and should be tended to. For a year Divine Favor has been the crutch of a many Purifiers and although imo Preservers don't need it as much.

    Honestly I think it'd be rather interesting and cool even if Nature's Blessing was changed to shielding instead of healing beings our throughput is already decent but we lack the ability to prevent as much and it would make Masteries a bit less homogenized between different classes.

    It's just going to take some more fine tuning of things to bring all things in line, this is understood and accepted and I think everyone doing their part of accurate and objective feedback is great.

    P.S. Mages have talents to increase to Ethereal Damage
    Last edited by Aylen; 12-18-2015 at 09:54 AM. Reason: P.S. that I forgot xD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Essat View Post
    What is the methodology for testing procs? You don't mention which 20 man raids are you bringing the data from.

    Nature's blessing is tuned around a 1 second gcd whereas divine favor is tuned around a 1.5 second gcd. If you are not proccing nature's blessing as much as divine favor, you are relying on nurture which only procs it on the 1st tic.

    There is no real reason to increase spiritualism damage if overall primalist dps is in a good spot. Different classes function differently. Who knew it.
    First of, it doesnt matter wich raid it is. As the values wont change.
    20-man as 20-man, have the same values in Mount Sharax, Hammerknell and Mind of Madness for an example. But if you are curious about the data, its from an entire month of raids, alt raids and stuff. 12.4gb of logfiles from just raids. Everything from Rhen of Fate til Mind of Madness.

    Secondly.
    Just because the damage of the abilities isnt properly tuned doesnt make it OK to let the masteries be broken.

    Third.
    Values on Nature's Blessing doesnt change even if its done by nurture or inundate or other stuff. The average and EncHPS will ofc, but not each separate value of it.

    Fourth
    Preserver is based of 1 sec GCD yeah, but its also based on using damaging abilities to increase your healing by 9% from time to time, wich doesnt proc Nature's Blessing, implement that to a Purifier and compare then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen
    In addition to Aen's suggestion for Savage Blow, which I agree is definitely one way to handle it, another would be to keep the functionality as it currently is but either increase the duration to 15s or reduce it to 10s and boost the DPS slightly. Not only does it consume a GCD without giving benefit to the Focus bar, but... It also is a weird duration with the rotation in mind and obviously lacks DPS. Both 10 and 15s durations would work far better than the current 12.
    Yeah that would work aswell, or make it 0 gcd but that will probably not happend.
    But, the idea of masteries for a Primalist should change tho, we only need Spiritualism as a damage Mastery, (if it would be fixed). And then we could have a different mastery wich does something else, then damage.
    Last edited by Aeral; 12-18-2015 at 10:11 AM.

    Aenomaly former <Fires of Heaven>
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    You want the devs to do more balance changes to make your 65 point mastery do more damage when the point is moot since class balance is not based around any specific ability but the overall synergies between abilities.

    It is consistent between what procs divine favor and nature's blessing. Channels only proc 1 instance of their respective buff because the proc is on ability cast, not healing applied. This applies to ward of flame, spiritual conflagration, and nurture.

    There are plenty of things that are interesting and cool that are unbalanced. That would be one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeral View Post
    First of, it doesnt matter wich raid it is. As the values wont change.
    20-man as 20-man, have the same values in Mount Sharax, Hammerknell and Mind of Madness for an example. But if you are curious about the data, its from an entire month of raids, alt raids and stuff. 12.4gb of logfiles from just raids. Everything from Rhen of Fate til Mind of Madness.
    The proc rate of divine favor varies based on how much the puri relies on ward of flame for healing. Thus more rigorous content increases the proc rate of divine favor. I would assume that is mirrored on the primalist side by a reliance on nurture for lower throughput fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeral View Post
    Secondly.
    Just because the damage of the abilities isnt properly tuned doesnt make it OK to let the masteries be broken.
    Sure, the mastery taken out of context does lower damage. But the class as a whole is where balance happens, not any specific ability. What you are doing is like comparing eth beam to nysyrs. Oh no, my nysyrs does 1/3 of the damage of eth beam. Need buff!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeral View Post
    Third.
    Values on Nature's Blessing doesnt change even if its done by nurture or inundate or other stuff. The average and EncHPS will ofc, but not each separate value of it.
    I wasn't talking about the value but the proc rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeral View Post
    Fourth
    Preserver is based of 1 sec GCD yeah, but its also based on using damaging abilities to increase your healing by 9% from time to time, wich doesnt proc Nature's Blessing, implement that to a Purifier and compare then.
    Sure, let's give preserver a mana bar and make ward of flame channeled while moving while we're at it. See where taking abilities out of context and then comparing them makes 0 sense at all?
    Last edited by Essat; 12-18-2015 at 10:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Essat View Post
    You want the devs to do more balance changes to make your 65 point mastery do more damage when the point is moot since class balance is not based around any specific ability but the overall synergies between abilities.

    It is consistent between what procs divine favor and nature's blessing. Channels only proc 1 instance of their respective buff because the proc is on ability cast, not healing applied. This applies to ward of flame, spiritual conflagration, and nurture.

    There are plenty of things that are interesting and cool that are unbalanced. That would be one of them.



    The proc rate of divine favor varies based on how much the puri relies on ward of flame for healing. Thus more rigorous content increases the proc rate of divine favor. I would assume that is mirrored on the primalist side by a reliance on nurture for lower throughput fights.



    Sure, the mastery taken out of context does lower damage. But the class as a whole is where balance happens, not any specific ability. What you are doing is like comparing eth beam to nysyrs. Oh no, my nysyrs does 1/3 of the damage of eth beam. Need buff!



    I wasn't talking about the value but the proc rate.



    Sure, let's give preserver a mana bar and make ward of flame channeled while moving while we're at it. See where taking abilities out of context and then comparing them makes 0 sense at all?

    Yes that would make sense, if there was only 1 spec to play.
    But this is not the case. So if Dervish parses good, Vulcanist has to suffer for it, or hybrid specs. Or future specs.
    You cant balance masteries by either synergy of abilities unless every spec parses the same numbers or how 1 spec parses. And keeping a damage mastery to underperform just because a spec parses high doesnt make sense either.

    You dont see the point in this.

    As for the healing part.
    The point is that the base value is underperforming, not how often it procs.
    As you are healing, then situtations and scenarios will change.
    Last edited by Aeral; 12-18-2015 at 10:35 AM.

    Aenomaly former <Fires of Heaven>
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeral View Post
    Yes that would make sense, if there was only 1 spec to play.
    But this is not the case. So if Dervish parses good, Vulcanist has to suffer for it, or hybrid specs. Or future specs.
    You cant balance masteries by either synergy of abilities unless every spec parses the same numbers or how 1 spec parses. And keeping a damage mastery to underperform just because a spec parses high doesnt make sense either.

    You dont see the point in this.

    As for the healing part.
    The point is that the base value is underperforming, not how often it procs.
    As you are healing, then situtations and scenarios will change.
    Sure, and in order for spiritualism to be buffed, every primalist spec would need to be nerfed a similar amount considering primalist dps is competitive in every arena.

    The base healing amount on nature's blessing is based on primalist's 1 second gcd. There is no reason for a proc that requires an investment of 1 second to heal the same amount as a proc that requires a 1.5 second gcd.

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    Telaran Aylen's Avatar
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    Yeah, 0 GCD on Savage Blow would technically work, but... We already have a oGCD ability which requires little to no management so I think it's ideal for us to keep Savage Blow being kind of different and somewhat challenging to maintain the "fun factor"

    Aside from that I feel Nature's Blessing needs a serious rework, buff or be completely tossed for something altogether different beings many Preservers don't even use it and I personally see higher throughput with Ancestral.

    You want the devs to do more balance changes to make your 65 point mastery do more damage when the point is moot since class balance is not based around any specific ability but the overall synergies between abilities.
    I don't think ANY of us want them to balance our class around any specific ability, although literally all of the classes are and have been, all we'd like is for our Level 65 talents to not be useless and extremely underwhelming.

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    Telaran Aylen's Avatar
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    The base healing amount on nature's blessing is based on primalist's 1 second gcd. There is no reason for a proc that requires an investment of 1 second to heal the same amount as a proc that requires a 1.5 second gcd.
    This WOULD make sense IF Nature's Blessing Healing Coefficient added up to the same healing throughput per properly allocated cast amount.

    SIMPLE MATH:
    6s worth of GCD healing procs

    Nature's Blessing - 6(1s GCD) x 22,000(Avg Heal Crit as per provided Data) = 132,000

    Divine Favor - 4(1.5s GCD) x 38,000(Avg Heal Crit as per provided Data) = 152,000

    Add in the fact that as mentioned Preservers base their throughput generation around weaving in DPS abilities which do NOT proc Nature's Blessing and the fact that we only have a couple of GCD abilities to proc Nature's Blessing as opposed to Purifier who can proc it all day. It is far out of balance no matter how you'd like to cut it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Essat View Post
    Sure, and in order for spiritualism to be buffed, every primalist spec would need to be nerfed a similar amount considering primalist dps is competitive in every arena.

    The base healing amount on nature's blessing is based on primalist's 1 second gcd. There is no reason for a proc that requires an investment of 1 second to heal the same amount as a proc that requires a 1.5 second gcd.
    Even if Purifier would be a 1 sec GCD spec it would be 6k ahead of Nature's Blessing.
    And this is done with 0 damaging abilities to increase the healing by 9%.

    So imagine you would have to do 5-6 damage abilities over 1 minute to increase the healing on big hits by 9% then it would be even lower.

    Aenomaly former <Fires of Heaven>
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    Imagine your cleanse(s) and combat res being 1.5s gcd for the same effect. Imagine having to manage your mana bar. Imagine your cds being on the gcd. Imagine invigorate being on the gcd. Imagine having to move your damage buff around to do damage on tank swaps. Imagine not being able to move during invigorate. Imagine not having a 2nd break free on a port.

    And yes, I know puri has advantages over preserver. What I'm getting at is strictly comparing two similar abilities in two completely different specs on two different classes is pointless.

    Nature's blessing is comparable to divine favor but it is not meant to be a carbon copy. Stop treating it as such, just like any ability in any spec, the reason to buff it is not that it is worse than another ability from some other spec. The reason to buff an ability is that it is under performing within the context of the spec. With that in mind, if you are looking for preserver buffs, increasing the amount of healing nature's blessing does would only lead to more overhealing from the proc and other preserver abilities. I highly doubt what any spec needs is more healing throughput.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Essat View Post
    Imagine your cleanse(s) and combat res being 1.5s gcd for the same effect. Imagine having to manage your mana bar. Imagine your cds being on the gcd. Imagine invigorate being on the gcd. Imagine having to move your damage buff around to do damage on tank swaps. Imagine not being able to move during invigorate. Imagine not having a 2nd break free on a port.

    And yes, I know puri has advantages over preserver. What I'm getting at is strictly comparing two similar abilities in two completely different specs on two different classes is pointless.

    Nature's blessing is comparable to divine favor but it is not meant to be a carbon copy. Stop treating it as such, just like any ability in any spec, the reason to buff it is not that it is worse than another ability from some other spec. The reason to buff an ability is that it is under performing within the context of the spec. With that in mind, if you are looking for preserver buffs, increasing the amount of healing nature's blessing does would only lead to more overhealing from the proc and other preserver abilities. I highly doubt what any spec needs is more healing throughput.
    Well theres loads of scenarios where you arnt overhealing as preserver.

    But it could be changed into shielding, as someone mentioned.

    Aenomaly former <Fires of Heaven>
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  15. #15
    Rift Master Godgrinder's Avatar
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    Nature's Blessing? **** is that?

    Oh right, one of the useless things I could technically put on my bar and use but everything else is worth more than that.

    This is where the needs a buff talk comes into play and a butthurt alphakevinpuri doesn't help that by any means. If anything, puri needs a lot of holy water to tone that **** down because the healing meta is incredibly **** and boring at this point, not to mention **** all flexible.

    There's tankheals and there's puri, there's zero to compare and zero comparison beeing done other than to give an insight on how far said things are underperforming.

    Also the gcd tuning is a whole lot of bollocks, look at warrior and rogue numbers and then stop being a negative nancy in this post.

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