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Thread: problems with dervish

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Loratex's Avatar
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    Default problems with dervish

    looking into points put into dervish here are my breakdowns.

    first 7 points are good, AP bonus and cyclism.

    8th point is weak, only gain here is putting points into things you need later on for thunderhead.

    9-11 quick breeze

    12th point weak, same as 8

    13-20 very strong, shearing wins is a huge part of dervish dps. also get ST and thunderhead. one point here is weak since you need it to reach thunderhead.

    21-mediocre cooldown, 20% damage with only a 16% uptime.

    22-31, terrible.

    -------
    now looking at the bottom of the tree and skills used.

    lashing wind-main skill

    seismic smash- main skill, slightly tedious though

    aftershock- weak damage, only used as a filler even when 3 points are used to generate stacks to be able to use this ability.

    tectonic spike-main skill

    air cutter- main skill

    all of these are obtained in the first 14 points, as well as squall and the interrupt.

    after that comes shifting winds, defensive CD, not sure why it is in this tree at all

    subduction- minor skill, only gets used when tectonic spike is on CD, super weak for how deep in the tree it is. used 16 times in a 4.5 minute parse.

    whirling dervish-only good cooldown in the spec, strong aoe cooldown.

    earthfall-extremely weak for a 31 point skill, nearly 30% damage behind what 31 vulc beam does.


    -------
    so here is the problem, and also why the hybrid is so good. the cooldowns are weak and all of your main dps skills come within the first 14 points. there are 3 points wasted on aftershock, 2 points for a movement ability(which is nice please do not remove, this is the only non dps thing that should be in the top of this tree), 3 points spent to lower TS and subduction CDs which makes aftershock even more useless, and a point wasted in a minor self heal. meanwhile in the bottom of the tree one of the last 4 abilities is a defensive CD.


    my suggestions to help with wasted and weak points.

    aftershock-only make this usable after reaching 5 stacks and make it more powerful. generating stacks of tremor to release a powerful attack should feel more powerful.

    subduction- use this to replace aftershock as the main filler for earth attacks. remove the cooldown entirely and leave the damage as it is since it is already a weak attack.

    earthfall-honestly no ideas other than to increase the damage, the fact that is still weaker than 31 vulc ability even when you have primal avatar increasing it by 20% is just way too weak.

    primal avatar- increase duration to 15s. this skill has a really awesome feature in the fact that it reduces cast time to 0. however, the best dps rotation only allows you to use air cutter twice during the 10s you have it on because you are limited in time to use both whirling dervish and earthfall as well as reach 100 fury within 10s. adding another 5s would improve the effectiveness of this CD a lot.

    only things left after that would be shifting winds and spirit wind. i have no idea what to replace those with, personally i do like shifting winds i just don't know how it feels placed in a dps spec. however spirit wind is entirely useless. can't really think of anything cool to replace it with though. maybe a minor buff to font of savagery since even with the mastery it is still not really better than font of wit.
    Last edited by Loratex; 11-02-2015 at 10:32 AM.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Orangu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loratex View Post
    snip
    spirit wind is absolutely bananas for soloing builds. every heal of it is increased by 500 with the medic crystal and it has the ability to work on AoE. It heals me for about 1400-1500 non-crit per crit per target. Pair it with font of wit and the 6% increased crit from preserver and it's very strong.

    Other than that, interesting analysis of dervish


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  3. #3
    Plane Touched Loratex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangu View Post
    spirit wind is absolutely bananas for soloing builds. every heal of it is increased by 500 with the medic crystal and it has the ability to work on AoE. It heals me for about 1400-1500 non-crit per crit per target. Pair it with font of wit and the 6% increased crit from preserver and it's very strong.

    Other than that, interesting analysis of dervish
    if it's being modded by healing crystals it's gonna get nerfed just like reaver heals did.


    also just to avoid any confusion i am not saying that dervish needs ALL of those buffs that i suggested, even just one would be a huge help.

  4. #4
    RIFT Guide Writer Waseem2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loratex View Post
    aftershock-only make this usable after reaching 5 stacks and make it more powerful. generating stacks of tremor to release a powerful attack should feel more powerful.

    subduction- use this to replace aftershock as the main filler for earth attacks. remove the cooldown entirely and leave the damage as it is since it is already a weak attack.

    earthfall-honestly no ideas other than to increase the damage, the fact that is still weaker than 31 vulc ability even when you have primal avatar increasing it by 20% is just way too weak.

    primal avatar- increase duration to 15s. this skill has a really awesome feature in the fact that it reduces cast time to 0. however, the best dps rotation only allows you to use air cutter twice during the 10s you have it on because you are limited in time to use both whirling dervish and earthfall as well as reach 100 fury within 10s. adding another 5s would improve the effectiveness of this CD a lot.

    only things left after that would be shifting winds and spirit wind. i have no idea what to replace those with, personally i do like shifting winds i just don't know how it feels placed in a dps spec. however spirit wind is entirely useless. can't really think of anything cool to replace it with though. maybe a minor buff to font of savagery since even with the mastery it is still not really better than font of wit.
    I've suggested most of this before and I'm glad someone else has picked up on this.

    Aftershock - rather then require 5 stacks, consumes up to 5 stacks, damage increased for each stack. This way it wouldn't just go at the top of all your macros.

    Subduction - definitely needs to be a filler

    Air Cutter - Would like to see the Fury from this increased to 20. This would allow it to be used more during avatar as the only reason we use lashing wind and vorpal salvo is to get to fury to do Earthfall before the timer on avatar runs out. This would also allow us to use Air Cutter the entire Avatar duration in-case we need to save Whirling for aoe later.

    At the moment this entire spec is all over the place, it's a pain in the *** getting to Cunning and hell getting back to Harmony to re-apply Savage Twister in time.
    Rompalstomp - Raid Lead / Warrior Lead "Nefarious"

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer Waseem2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangu View Post
    spirit wind is absolutely bananas for soloing builds. every heal of it is increased by 500 with the medic crystal and it has the ability to work on AoE. It heals me for about 1400-1500 non-crit per crit per target. Pair it with font of wit and the 6% increased crit from preserver and it's very strong.

    Other than that, interesting analysis of dervish
    We do need some defensive stuff in all our dps specs, almost every other dps spec in the game has a personal shield of some sort.

    We even lack purges which I assume will be brought in with the support spec later but... we could use em now.

    At the moment, Primalist's don't really bring anything new to the game. I can't see any situation where one can say we need at least 1 primalist for this fight.
    Last edited by Waseem2k; 11-02-2015 at 12:58 PM.
    Rompalstomp - Raid Lead / Warrior Lead "Nefarious"

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    I have already heard from trustworthy sources that Redhawk is aware of how underwhelming dervish is, and that he already has plans to buff it. I agree with a lot of the stuff Loratex said about the tree feeling like its upside down. I think the hybrid should be nerfed indirectly by fixing dervish. I really dislike shearing winds. It does a ridiculous amount of damage and requires no extra thought or skill. I think its damage should be significantly reduced, and other dervish abilities buffed and moved to require higher commitment into the tree.

    To consolidate, i'll quote my post from the dervish feedback thread that no one responded to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sivaro View Post
    Bumping this because dervish needs attention.

    Dervish's damage is way too low for how unforgiving it is in disconnect situations or anytime your rotation gets interrupted.

    Sure, dervish has a decent amount of ranged abilities, but there are many points in your rotation where it will cost you a lot of dps if you have to use those instead of your most optimal ability. Air cutter and Earthfall may be your two most damaging abilities, but obviously hard casting air cutter isn't viable, and your only 3 ranged earth abilities to proc quick breeze have 10 seconds or longer cooldowns (excludinv precision bolt). Additionally, you would be losing a lot of dps to use earthfall without having 100 fury, and its on a 30 second cooldown and will rarely be up during a short disconnect.

    In addition to poor disconnect ability, the spec has very difficult to use aoe. Sure, whirling dervish can do a TON of aoe damage, but thats only for 3 seconds out of every 30, and the ability should be used immediately on every cooldown for your single target rotation anyway. Saving WD for aoe situations will only very rarely be viable, if ever.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that dervish needs more ranged or aoe abilities, but that because the spec lacks those, it should be one of the very best at the 1 thing it can do: single target dps.

    These are my suggestions:
    • Buff air cutter and/or earthfall damage.
    • Change rockslide to give no fury or cunning so that we can close gaps without breaking our rotation.
    • Change the subduction execute mechanic. Reduced cooldown in execute range is very nearly a 0 dps increase. Tectonic spike still does more damage and Seismic smash still has priority when your stacks are low. The dervish rotation and fury/cunning management is not flexible enough to allow for extra subduction casts because you need to be able to land back on 0 to recast savage twister. I think you could at most replace 1 aftershock with a subduction per minute.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Lethaemis's Avatar
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    Shearing Winds is doing ethereal damage which is part of the reason it is completely ridiculous.
    12/12 -- 15/15 -- 9/9
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    Lethaemis@Laethys 1600 Primalist

  8. #8
    Plane Touched Loratex's Avatar
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    while shearing winds seems ridiculous for how much free damage it is, you have to remember that assassin has had poisons being an even larger portion of it's overall damage for a very long time now.

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