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Thread: Chloromancer secondary: Warlock vs Archon

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Chloromancer secondary: Warlock vs Archon

    Hey everyone. So I played a Chloromancer to level 19 last beta phase, and I'm already getting geared up for the next phase. With that in mind, I decided to do a comparison of Archon vs Warlock as a side-spec.

    My warlock spec is thus:
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1z...c0oo.xx0V0qVxo

    Here's the Archon Spec:
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1z...orz.EdIuoVczoo

    Just ignore the 3rd tree, or assume the 3rd tree is a dominator. I didn't feel like changing specs a bunch so I just left all 3 trees up at once to make it easier to reference and double check for errors.

    So I went through both specs and added up every modifier that i could think of that would apply to heals and ran the numbers against each other. I will come out and say that I am now biased towards warlock(I used to want to sidespec Archon), but that was after I ran the numbers.

    Here's a summary of what the archon gets:
    Raidwide buffs
    +intelligence and endurance buffs to self
    +16% spell damage
    +18% spell haste
    -16% mana cost
    +10% additional spell power for 60 seconds every 3 minutes
    +Refill an allies mana bar once every 2 minutes.
    +Reduce enemy damage by means of Power Drain(This is probably better than entropic veil depending on if you are the only healer or one of 2-3 in a raid)

    Warlock Summary:
    Warlock:
    25% charge gain rate increase
    10% chance of instacast on casting
    +20% spell damage
    Increased Damage over time damage(currently useless as withering vines blows)
    Infinite Mana
    +10% endurance
    80% reduced damage taken emergency button. lasts 7 seconds
    +5% critical strike chance
    +Fear
    +10% increased damage for 15 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown


    RAW COMPARISON of advantages for an Archon over a Warlock as a primary healer(+ means archon wins, - means archon loses)

    -4% spell damage
    +18% spell haste
    -16% mana cost
    +10% spell power for 60 seconds on 3 minute CD
    -25% charge gain
    +2 minute cooldown "refill" on an allies mana
    -10% chance for instacast on next spell
    +Reduce enemy damage by means of Power Drain(This is probably better than entropic veil depending on if you are the only healer or one of 2-3 in a raid)
    -No infinite mana via lifetap
    -10% less endurance
    -5% critical strike chance
    -80% damage reduction buff should the tank lose aggro or the **** hit the fan
    -Increased damage over time(Currently useless as Withering Vines sucks ****)
    -Fear
    -10% increased damage for 15 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown.


    Additionally, the following should be noted:
    Archons provide VASTLY more group utility and buffs to the group than a warlock would.
    Archon buffs do not stack, and a primary archon would render this previous point worthless.
    Archons have to, in the case of much longer fights, "waste" GCDs to keep their buffs and auras up or else they lose all of the buffs to healing they get from having their auras up.
    10% increased spellpower is good, but inferior to 10% increased damage, which means that Warlocks potentially win out on burst healing via Sacrifice Life: Damage, over the various Archon Damage increases(like their 31 point ability).
    Warlocks have MASSIVE self-healing ability and burst survivability via their 31 point ability, which makes it much more likely for a warlock to survive and maintain heals if there is a broken aggro issue.
    Warlocks are much less reliant on managing self buffs to maintain their heals and potency, which makes them a more "stable" healing platform than an archon.

    To Sum up:
    Based on what I've seen from comparing ARchons to Warlocks, Warlock is a MUCH better sidespec for a PURE healer in a large scale raid environment, as warlock provide much more stability and longevity than an archon sidespec would provide. Additionally, the group buff advantages provided by the archon sidespec are negated by the inability to stack buffs, which means that a pure archon or even a bard will likely negate those advantages to a raid.
    However, in smaller groups and 5 man dungeons, most of the disadvantages of the archon sidespec will not be a problem, and they will be able to provide all their buffs without issue.

    Chloro/Archon = 5 man dungeon healer and utility
    Chloro/Warlock = Better healer, especially in large raid environments

    Am I missing something? I'm not trying to bash Archons, as I plan on having a 51 point Archon role as my secondary role, but it seems to me that Warlocks win in pure healing.

    Edit: Linked the wrong build. -_-
    Last edited by Garresh; 02-10-2011 at 10:11 PM.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    You should also look at Necro to supplement your Chloro. Putting 14/18 points in it will give you some good results. This also allows for 20/16 points to be put in a 3rd soul respectively.

    I can outline it for you or you can go fool around with it yourself and draw you own conclusions that don't have my biases already in them.

    Also something to note: Archon will often reduce your damage and your stats causing your healing/damage-heals to do less.

    This may not be what you want, pure warlock/archon discussion but it's something good to consider.
    Last edited by Xelfer; 02-10-2011 at 10:14 PM.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    Playing with Necro now, but it's worth noting that every intelligent Archon sidespeccer I've seen intentionally avoided one of the auras that reduced casting time. All the other auras only sap durability(which is still bad, but can be justifiable I think). I also had the numbers I posted for archons stats adjusted according to 4 auras, while intentionally avoiding the 5th.

    Edit: Actually, I don't see Necromancer being viable from a healing standpoint. The pay-life heals that a necromancer has are good, but scale poorly. Additionally, necromancer sidespeccers lose out on around 20% bonus damage(and therefore bonus healing), in addition to a lot of the utility that archons and warlocks bring to the table. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it.
    Last edited by Garresh; 02-10-2011 at 10:22 PM.

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Playing with Necro now, but it's worth noting that every intelligent Archon sidespeccer I've seen intentionally avoided one of the auras that reduced casting time. All the other auras only sap durability(which is still bad, but can be justifiable I think). I also had the numbers I posted for archons stats adjusted according to 4 auras, while intentionally avoiding the 5th.
    They have ones that sap their damage as well and their INT/WIS I believe? These will negatively effect healing. (I didn't look at your spec honestly, I don't think Archon is really a good combo for Chloro in PvP which is really all I care about. PvE will always be fairly forgivable)

    I believe Necro is the best choice personally for the pure healer with a lot of options.

    (their is a lot about this in the Chloro-Necro thread a few posts down, specifically on the last page)

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    I really don't see it. Necros don't have anything that boosts life damage or healing output on the same level as Archons or Warlocks, which means at best they'd be healing at 75% of the effectiveness of an archon or warlock, for what benefit exactly? They don't get the durability of a warlock or the utility of an archon. They get 2 crappy heal spells that barely work with Chloromancer when you consider that our Vile Spores hit harder than either of those heals, without the cost of hurting ourselves.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched adddemon's Avatar
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    chloromancer sucks up talent points like CRAZY, it does not play well with others and to be honest i would not spend time hunting for RNG when trying to build a healer spec since you want to have dependable sustainable healing, i went chloromancer/elementalist/dominator for the out of combat mana regen, the pet with a taunt to peel adds off you, and the CC

    its still my main spec tho, i love it.

    25% charge gain rate increase --charge is already easy to get
    10% chance of instacast on casting -- unreliable source of healing
    +20% spell damage -- where is this from?
    Increased Damage over time damage(currently useless as withering vines blows)
    Infinite Mana --- the change to living shell makes your mana pool last a while
    +10% endurance -- completely useless unless your pvping
    80% reduced damage taken emergency button. lasts 7 seconds -- its ok i guess
    +5% critical strike chance -- rng make healer not
    +Fear -- this dosent heal, in fact, it could just make you have to heal even more if it pulls adds
    +10% increased damage for 15 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown chloromancer has the same thing, with no cooldown, and its 17% increased damage
    i havent got a chance to play much of the archon soul, but dont you have to cast alot of spells to get its bonuses going? that is the complete opposite of what you need for chloromancer, chloromancer wants you to do nothing but cast life spells.
    Last edited by adddemon; 02-10-2011 at 10:46 PM.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Uh, kind of. Archons can set up their buffs before the encounter on a trash mob prior to the boss, but they're going to need to start wasting GCDs about 3 minutes into the fight.

    Also you missed the part about the 10% increased damage on a 2 minute cooldown stacking with the chloromancer one. THey're not mutually exclusive. Everything you get from a chloromancer is added onto by both of these sidespecs.

    In reference to your other remarks: Yes charge is easy to get, but increasing charge gain rate directly corresponds to higher uptime on entropic veil, thereby increasing overall healing.

    As for infinite mana from a warlock spec...Given the oppurtunity cost of everything else you could be getting, the ability to be able to heal for, quite literally, forever, is pretty worthwhile in the event of a partial wipe or an extremely long encounter.

    Endurance is useless outside of PvP? The massive burst survivability of the warlock is amazingly useful. If something goes wrong, a chloro/warlock is in the position to almost completely ignore the chaos and stay alive while giving 100% of his attention to tossing out heals. 10% more durability on top of that is still a pretty huge amount. However, I concede you have a point here.

    And yes RNG is bad for a healer, but you can't prevent enemies from critting or getting lucky, so these points still have some usefulness.

    Good point on the fear. It's highly situational.

    Oh, and 20% boosted damage is from the warlock armor talent which boosts damage by 10% while warlock armor is up(t lasts like an hour tho so it's fine) and another talent 1 tier below that which boosts spell damage by 10%. Basically, a 20% boost to healing for a chloromancer, without excessive dependency on buff management. Those 2 talents are pretty much the core reason for why I believe the warlock is the best sidespec. 20% boosted healing is HUGE.

  8. #8
    Champion of Telara
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    ..... If you want support that badly go support, don't mix it in with heals.. You think that +21 stats or .w.e would matter at 50? I can just outdps you by using void life.. and get more heals in.. 51 pts chloro ftw..

    Chloromancer is one of the only classes in the mage calling that is even worth dumping 51 pts in.. don't gimp yourself by using archon on a heal build.. get warlock for life to mana and w.e. you want..

    Natural Splendor is insane, it would be a crime not to have it on a chloro build..

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple
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    I prefer Archon for secondary. A lot of people like lock for the infinite mana but I never have many mana problems.
    Archon just gives some nice buffs to throw up as endurance/armor hits to yourself is worth it to give to the team. Also the stone/ blood abilities are good to use when you got nothing else to do. Just switching a vile spore cast once every couple of minutes can keep some nice buffs on yourself.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    having been 31 in archon i don't see why you didn't put 1 point more into archon for the last aura. You nerf yourself to help group but the advantages are

    -0% spell damage
    +20% spell hastealso originally it should have been 16+10=26 not 18 spell haste with 4 aura, but for 6 haste u get 4% damage, 4% heals, 4% reduced cost
    -20% mana cost
    +10% spell power for 60 seconds on 3 minute CD
    -25% charge gain
    +2 minute cooldown "refill" on an allies mana
    -10% chance for instacast on next spell
    +Reduce enemy damage by means of Power Drain(This is probably better than entropic veil depending on if you are the only healer or one of 2-3 in a raid)
    -No infinite mana via lifetap no point if blending leeching flame
    -10% less endurance its hp not endurance
    -5% critical strike chance questionable with the int gain from rock slide
    -80% damage reduction buff should the tank lose aggro or the **** hit the fan should never happen in 1st place
    -Increased damage over time(Currently useless as Withering Vines sucks ****)DoTs heal how much again anyways?!?!
    -Fearlose healing cast
    -10% increased damage for 15 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown.
    +20% heals completely looked over that i see

    Chloro/Archon = 5 man dungeon healer and utilityactually warlock, no time to buff yourself
    Chloro/Warlock = Better healer, especially in large raid environmentsactually archon(especially if only one in raid) other healers can pick up slack while you get the buffs up; have better aoe healing; alot more to benefit in raid in general with mana flare too

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick2412 View Post
    ..... If you want support that badly go support, don't mix it in with heals.. You think that +21 stats or .w.e would matter at 50? I can just outdps you by using void life.. and get more heals in.. 51 pts chloro ftw..

    Chloromancer is one of the only classes in the mage calling that is even worth dumping 51 pts in.. don't gimp yourself by using archon on a heal build.. get warlock for life to mana and w.e. you want..

    Natural Splendor is insane, it would be a crime not to have it on a chloro build..
    Well, that's kinda wrong, actually. INvesting into chloromancer past around 32-36 points in doesn't really give you much of anything. Increased crit chance on our direct heals(which we barely use anyways), reduced cooldown on soul tether, mana buffs which are vastly inferior to the 6 point warlock mana engine, negligible buffs to endurance...the remaining 14-18 points needed to hit 51 in chloro are almost completely worthless.

    The only good things are the 44 and 51 point abilities in chloro. One of them is a strong AoE heal which could certainly have some usefuless if your dps get hit by a strong AoE DoT. HOWEVER, because it must be channeled for 8 seconds and suffers from the DoT penalty on LGV, it will still be healing your tank for significantly less than you would be healing them for normally. If you channel it for it's full duration it's likely your tank will die. The other ability is channeled and suffers from the AoE penalty on LGV, making it unlikely to provide healing on the same level as your base healing abilities. The damage is good, but if you're putting 51 points into chloro you're not doing it for the damage.

    Now consider. 2 long duration cooldowns that provide crappy heals...vs 20% boosted healing across the board, infinite mana, and everything else I listed. There's a reason you never see deep chloro specs. Archon or Warlock is vastly superior to deep chloro in almost every way.

  12. #12
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    I really don't see it. Necros don't have anything that boosts life damage or healing output on the same level as Archons or Warlocks, which means at best they'd be healing at 75% of the effectiveness of an archon or warlock, for what benefit exactly? They don't get the durability of a warlock or the utility of an archon. They get 2 crappy heal spells that barely work with Chloromancer when you consider that our Vile Spores hit harder than either of those heals, without the cost of hurting ourselves.
    Life Shift was healing for far more than the healing done from damage and the damage to self was almost nothing. With damage, you are only healing 1 person with synthesize buff for a large amount, if you need to heal someone else the heals become less effective(30 second cooldown on synthesize). You get an ability to strip an enemy Buff. You get 20 more points to put into a 3rd class where going archon/warlock locks you into 2 more or less. Damage can be mitigated and reduced, your Life Shift isn't effected by this.

    You consider all of these?

  13. #13
    Plane Touched adddemon's Avatar
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    i have actually been considering dropping elementalist, it was only really there in the first place for leveling. but i was in a boss fight the other day, it was this fight where the boss conjures these crystals that heal him..... we had 3 healers in the group, and let me tell you... that fight took a really, really long time, probably a good 5-10 min. with just using living shell, i never ran out of mana. i dont know if its bugged or what, but even when the shells damage shield was popped, it still continued to give you mana back for its duration.

    warlock could be usefull for the life tap, but i dont think the bonuses are large enough to really wow you in play. for pvp tho go nuts, heck, i have been working on a hybrid build with stormcaller and aoe radiant spores that could possibly yield a lot of self healing

    in the end, i would consider this point.

    chloromancer wants you to use life spells. what souls best help you reach this goal?
    Last edited by adddemon; 02-10-2011 at 11:10 PM.

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twuz View Post
    having been 31 in archon i don't see why you didn't put 1 point more into archon for the last aura. You nerf yourself to help group but the advantages are

    -0% spell damage
    +20% spell hastealso originally it should have been 16+10=26 not 18 spell haste with 4 aura, but for 6 haste u get 4% damage, 4% heals, 4% reduced cost
    -20% mana cost
    +10% spell power for 60 seconds on 3 minute CD
    -25% charge gain
    +2 minute cooldown "refill" on an allies mana
    -10% chance for instacast on next spell
    +Reduce enemy damage by means of Power Drain(This is probably better than entropic veil depending on if you are the only healer or one of 2-3 in a raid)
    -No infinite mana via lifetap no point if blending leeching flame
    -10% less endurance its hp not endurance
    -5% critical strike chance questionable with the int gain from rock slide
    -80% damage reduction buff should the tank lose aggro or the **** hit the fan should never happen in 1st place
    -Increased damage over time(Currently useless as Withering Vines sucks ****)DoTs heal how much again anyways?!?!
    -Fearlose healing cast
    -10% increased damage for 15 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown.
    +20% heals completely looked over that i see

    Chloro/Archon = 5 man dungeon healer and utilityactually warlock, no time to buff yourself
    Chloro/Warlock = Better healer, especially in large raid environmentsactually archon(especially if only one in raid) other healers can pick up slack while you get the buffs up; have better aoe healing; alot more to benefit in raid in general with mana flare too
    Can you explain for a moment how you got +26% spell haste? you get 2% per aura, not 4%, and using the last aura saps you of 10% spell haste. It's 10% spell haste for 4% reduced mana and 4% increased damage. That seems like a flawed investment to me. So if you do take off the 4% penalty to damage that the archon spec gets as compared to a warlock, ou sacrifice the 10% spell haste advantage they get, cutting the benefits to an archon by a huge amount.

    Additionally, you mention the +20% heals. I did overlook that I see, but considering that direct healing is probably about 5% of a chloromancers healing output, saying +20% damage is essentially synonymous as saying +20% healing to a chloromancer. We heal through damage, therefore healing and damage are one and the same. Additionally, it only mentions spell healing, which means it would not be amplifying damage via LGV. If it were archon would win outright with a net increase in heals of 44%. But that would be double dipping so to speak. You don't multiply them twice. That's not how it works.

    Also, you mention the int gain from rock slide, yet criticize fear for wasting a GCD. If you're playing an Archon, you're going to be wasting many GCDs trying to maintain your self buffs.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xelfer View Post
    Life Shift was healing for far more than the healing done from damage and the damage to self was almost nothing. With damage, you are only healing 1 person with synthesize buff for a large amount, if you need to heal someone else the heals become less effective(30 second cooldown on synthesize). You get an ability to strip an enemy Buff. You get 20 more points to put into a 3rd class where going archon/warlock locks you into 2 more or less. Damage can be mitigated and reduced, your Life Shift isn't effected by this.

    You consider all of these?
    That's actually a damn good point. Warlock benefits are inherently "top heavy" in that you need to put in 31 points to really reap the benefits, but a build of 32 into Chloro with the rest divided 50/50 between necro and archon does sound like it has a lot of usefuless, especially in being able to heal players other than the tank much more reliably. However, there have been reports of necromancer heal scaling to be bad, so that would have to be fixed first I think. Still, awesome idea. I'm going to toy around with a tri spec now.

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