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Thread: Necromancer

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Necromancer

    is beyond "broken". Those of you that have tried to even get a sensible parse out of it can clearly see that .
    -Legendary Condemn is still only consuming 5/10 DC stacks , when it's supposed to take all 10 ,

    -Counter-intuitive legendaries where even though Possession with Legendary Soul Bond active is a YUGE dps gain it ultimately gimps Legendary Condemn since that's having to gain 10 stacks in the 15 seconds between Possession just ending and coming off CD and the more finer touches of the spec.

    Even on PTS these issues don't seem to be addressed. Does anyone have any words to console me with while I think about a spec with such potential going down the drain ?
    #FixNecro
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  2. #2
    Champion Maltie's Avatar
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    #MakeNecroGreatAgain
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  3. #3
    Ascendant Boase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMar View Post
    Does anyone have any words to console me with while I think about a spec with such potential going down the drain ?

    Play a spec that pulls more dps

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boase View Post
    Play a spec that pulls more dps
    Oh Boase that's not consolation. Now I feel even worse that in order to pull top DPS I would have to pray to RNGesus every 30 seconds.
    #FixNecro
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMar View Post
    Oh Boase that's not consolation. Now I feel even worse that in order to pull top DPS I would have to pray to RNGesus every 30 seconds.
    Then don't play Ele. It's barely top and certainly won't be once 4.1 hits.

    As for Necro the bugs have been around since beta and every now and then a thread like this pops up to say how crap Necro is. And its true every time. Sorry no consolation here either.
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  6. #6
    Ascendant Shinkirou's Avatar
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    Well, in NMT after they made changes to it I believe at one point they mentioned they had no plans to make it into a DPS spec.

    So I regarded it as a support spec with no real support, however once Defiler links were taken away, I did actually use it in MoM for link swapping, and had the spec set up to pull around 85k ST during most encounters, so it kind of had a very niche role in raids.

    Now with all the 4.0 and PTS changes, I assumed they intended to turn it into something akin to Ranger, dps pet spec, but not going to be top dps. Yet they haven't done much to tune it in such a direction, I don't even understand what they're trying to do with Necro, and can't really offer feedback because of that, can't really evaluate something when there's no end product in mind.

    Others may be feeling the same way, but in general the soul's become a mess, and there's no clear direction that they seem to want to take the soul.

    It barely serves as a solo spec with pet aggro being almost non-existent.
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  7. #7
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinkirou View Post
    Others may be feeling the same way, but in general the soul's become a mess, and there's no clear direction that they seem to want to take the soul.
    Because most of the stuff in Necromancer are counter-intuitive and works against each other rather than synergize.

    Possession is one of the main issue here.
    1. It despawns pets, making half of the talents pointless has they focus on pets.
    2. It eats up too much uptime from Necro, making DoTs and debuff management a nightmare or simply impossible.

    Legendary Soul Bond is a joke.
    1. Reducing CD on a spec that already can't fit all of its abilities into a rotation will simply make it even worse.
    2. Possession now takes up 50% uptime instead of 25%. Exacerbating the issues with Possession.

    Pets are a mess and always been a mess in Rift.
    1. Bad scaling.
    2. Half the talents focused on pets while the other half is focused on the player. This means that to have the same efficiency as another spec, the talents and abilities needs to be substantially stronger than other specs. Example: A talent that buff the mage to boost damage by 10%. For Harbinger, that's a ~10% boost. For Necromancer, that's a ~5% boost because 50% of the damage is on the pet and the pet doesn't benefit from that 10% talent.
    3. Unreliable. They die, can't always get to their target, act stupidly, etc.


    How to fix Necromancer?
    1. Get rid of Possession entirely.
    2a. Either revamp talents to benefit both the mage and ALL of its pets equally.
    2b. Or make pets scale according to the mage damage.
    2c. Both 2a and 2b.
    3. Remove the CD reduction shenanigans from Legendary Soul Bond entirely.
    4. Tweak numbers.
    5. Create a real rotation that focuses on summoning pets that attack a given target.
    6. Make Essence Link force uncontrollable pets to focus their attack on the Essence Linked target.
    Last edited by Snap; 03-08-2017 at 10:27 AM.
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  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer SecondBass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinkirou View Post
    I regarded it as a support spec with no real support, however once Defiler links were taken away, I did actually use it in MoM for link swapping, and had the spec set up to pull around 85k ST during most encounters, so it kind of had a very niche role in raids.
    Necro was always around as a slighty-more-DPS defiler, but Unstable Transformation was worth way more than the minimal DPS gain. I swear it was like pulling teeth after the defiler rework, so many raids just threw more tank healers at Fauxmire and Enigma instead of making someone pickup 1-button necro.

    So all we need is a fight that Necro can trivialize with its link and it'll get coverted to a full DPS soul too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Because most of the stuff in Necromancer are counter-intuitive and works against each other rather than synergize.
    There is such thing as a middle ground between synergy and anti-synergy, crap talents might not be as good as one would prefer, but none of them are negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Possession is one of the main issue here.
    1. It despawns pets, making half of the talents pointless has they focus on pets.
    2. It eats up too much uptime from Necro, making DoTs and debuff management a nightmare or simply impossible.

    Legendary Soul Bond is a joke.
    1. Reducing CD on a spec that already can't fit all of its abilities into a rotation will simply make it even worse.
    2. Possession now takes up 50% uptime instead of 25%. Exacerbating the issues with Possession.
    I agree that 50% uptime is too high for possession (changed on PTS). It may have clunked the rotation a lot, but it was a huge improvement to overall DPS, so calling it a joke is a bit silly. Outside of possession, your pet does contribute somewhat, but weak talents are still weak.

    Necro could easily use all its abilities in 45s in NT so I really don't know what you're talking about? And, again, Possession is still your cooldown block, so increasing its up-time is just a good DPS boost (ability clutter is a whole other larger-than-necro mess).

    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Pets are a mess and always been a mess in Rift.
    1. Bad scaling.
    2. Half the talents focused on pets while the other half is focused on the player. This means that to have the same efficiency as another spec, the talents and abilities needs to be substantially stronger than other specs. Example: A talent that buff the mage to boost damage by 10%. For Harbinger, that's a ~10% boost. For Necromancer, that's a ~5% boost because 50% of the damage is on the pet and the pet doesn't benefit from that 10% talent.
    Pets are a mess, everyone agrees with that (why else would devs add abilities that de-activate ele and druid pets?).
    First off, your pet isn't 50% of your damage.
    Secondly, and slightly off topic, buff dilution is a thing so never take a buff at full value (and pet buffs are stronger than you expect because they suffer less from dilution)
    Third, yes, necro's talents could be better (technically so could every soul's, but it's more noticeable to see bad talents in an underperforming soul), but talents don't equal results (look at the jump in DPS that BM got, based off of exactly 2 abilities). There are other, simpler, ways to improve souls without re-doing the entire tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    3. Unreliable. They die, can't always get to their target, act stupidly, etc.
    The same could be said about a lot of players.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    How to fix Necromancer?
    1. Get rid of Possession entirely.
    2a. Either revamp talents to benefit both the mage and ALL of its pets equally.
    2b. Or make pets scale according to the mage damage.
    2c. Both 2a and 2b.
    3. Remove the CD reduction shenanigans from Legendary Soul Bond entirely.
    4. Tweak numbers.
    5. Create a real rotation that focuses on summoning pets that attack a given target.
    6. Make Essence Link force uncontrollable pets to focus their attack on the Essence Linked target.
    1. Yeah, deleting the ENTIRE cooldown block will make necro so much better /s.
    I think possession is such a cool ability, but it does make necro so opaque (12 temporary abilities! and people complained about harb having 4). Possession (like most of necro) could use updating, but deleting it is just stupid.
    2a. Why equally? Pets scale differently from players (like you said above) so making the talents equal does not make them do equal damage.
    2b. Do you want the pet to contribute more? You already said it's an unreliable mess.
    2c. Again, revamping talents and changing scaling equations for pets is a ton of work that utlimately doesn't guarantee anything, tweaking the current abilities is faster and arguably more effective than just nuking the soul and re-tuning it from scratch.
    3. And do what with it? By itself, it's a great legendary, it just doesn't play nice with Possession. PTS is already addressing this.
    4. Genius.
    5. I only listen to "REAL" music. What on earth does a real rotation mean and who gets to define it? Necro is clunky, devs are aware. And its rotation already involves summoning pets.
    6. Yay an actual suggestion! I genuinely like this, but the summoned pets are pretty inconsequential so I don't really think this would be that effective of a band-aid.

    So that I actually contribute to this thread:
    1. QOL: Putrify should instantly apply 5 stacks on your current target (like Druid's 61pt) instead of waiting for your pet to do it.
    2. My clean-up idea for necro is to 'merge' Lich Form and Possession. When in Lich Form, you'd get your possession abilities (or maybe make normal abilities contextual like in Cab or Reaver so you'd always see your abilities and have to manage your CDs better), so Possession would become your charge management instead of the CD block, freeing up space for DOTs/debuffs while still keeping both mechanics (and your pet) around.
    2b. But that's a dream that requires lots of work, so if Necro just gets the Harb treatment (keep cool transform but its just a damage buff) I'd be pretty happy (RIP master's rage)

    Also pet buffs only affect your primary pet, not any of the uncontrollable ones (can't confirm for all of them, but Bone Frenzy and force-crit (Dark resonance talent) only affects your primary pet.
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  9. #9
    Plane Walker notawaifu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMar View Post
    -Legendary Condemn is still only consuming 5/10 DC stacks , when it's supposed to take all 10
    That's because the Legendary spells that add DC stacks do not work. Any amount of DC stacks over 5 aren't 'real' and are broken. It's not that it isn't consuming them. The additional over 5 just don't exist except on de/buff frames.
    Last edited by notawaifu; 03-09-2017 at 04:08 AM.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondBass View Post
    [...]
    I didn't want to elaborate too much because I could write an entire novel on Necromancer but let me clarify a couple things.

    - I said 50% because I didn't feel like doing a parse and calculating exactly how much % of Necromancer DPS was done by the pets. 20-30% is still a substantial part of its DPS. Even 10% is still enough to matter.

    - Removing Possession doesn't mean giving Necromancer no cooldown block. It can always be replaced. That or Possession can be made like EA, a damage boost without temporary abilities. It shouldn't despawn pets and should simply boost you and your pet damage while active.
    The point of Possession is to transform into your pet and use its abilities but you have to use non-temporary abilities to keep up the rotation, otherwise your DoTs, buffs and debuffs fall off and so does your DPS.
    Possession is a problem, it needs to be changed or removed. Else, Necromancer will always be clunky.
    Numbers isn't the be all end all of what makes a spec good. Reliability is much more important. What's the point of using Necromancer if there is no fight but a dummy parse that makes Necromancer good?
    Look at Cleric's Druid. It does massive DPS on dummy parse, doesn't make it any good in a real fight because of how impossible it is to get the perfect scenario like on a dummy.

    - When I said that talents should benefit both the mage and all the pets equally, I meant that a 10% damage boost talent should apply to both the mage and pet. If you use Legendary Galvanic Strike, the damage boost should also be given to the pet. Otherwise, you are increasing only a portion of the mage's DPS while other specs gets full benefit from it. This means that Necromancer needs better talents than other souls to deal with the fact that its damage is split between the mage and the pet and the pet doesn't benefit as much from all talents, in or out of Necro soul.

    - In NT you couldn't fit your Possession properly into your rotation. Despawning your pets screwed up your Parasite and you had to cast non-Possession abilities during your CD block. I guess I should have used the words "Ability clutter" instead. Necromancer in Nightmare Tides was clunky, unlike specs like Warlock which has a clear rotation where every abilities fits in like a glove without any of them counter-acting against each other (Minus the stupid Primary Bolt wasting Conflux stacks shenanigan).

    - Because a talent is positive doesn't mean it synergize. If you look at Warlock, there is a talent that boost your Void Bolt, Void Barrage and Draining Bolt damage for each DoT on your target, that is synergy. Talents that increase your pet DPS but not your own when you have an ability that despawn all of your pets, that's counter-intuitive.

    - BM got a 500% boost to its pet damage. Obviously, it's going to increase its DPS substantially. Now give that 500% buff boost to the Warrior on a talent instead of the pet, you'd be seeing BM outDPS every single soul in the game by a very large amount. Don't say talents don't equal results, they can absolutely change everything. In any case, throwing massive numbers at a problem doesn't fix it. Beastmaster went from having a proper rotation to being completely counter-intuitive. The entire spec revolved around DoTs that you now need to consume every 15 seconds to be effective. Beastmaster can pull massive DPS, that's nice, but that's only because of inflated numbers.

    - Because players are unreliable, die all the time and act stupidly, doesn't mean that me as a good player should have to deal with a pet that act like those players. If I am good and can control my pet, there is no reason why it should die because a boss will randomly kill off my pets with a randomly targeted ability or an AoE that is considered single target damage. And I can only control one of the pets, I have no control over other pets.

    - Cooldown reduction would be fine if it wasn't for Possession completely screwing up with it. So long as it doesn't cause any "Ability clutter"
    Last edited by Snap; 03-09-2017 at 07:05 AM.
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  11. #11
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    The thing that would really be great is if every soul worked reasonably well and didn't go from great to bad and back again regularly. It sucks to hear so many people say X Soul / Class used to be awesome, now I'm playing Y until it gets fixed. It's not inspiring. It happens in many games but why break something before it can be done right? A few PVPers complaining? Guess what? They do it in every game and I can name a box full of games that PVPers and panicked Developers destroyed.

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