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Thread: Buff Rime...

  1. #1
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    Default Buff Rime...

    By removing Earthen Renewal from Ground Zero.

    Rime gains a purpose, and the FK gets a much needed nerf to its healing output.

    I'm baffled that this was not one of the first nerfs to have hit the FK.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara
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    And what about PvE ?
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  3. #3
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    Default Nice

    Totally gut a specs utility in PvE so it's not op in the desert of PvP, and do people even CQ anymore? How about disabling or restricting crosshealing between Frostkeepers in PvP. See how easy it is to make a suggestion that doesn't cripple the spec for PvE? But since it's more than likely you don't PvE you wouldn't care.

    BTW your post should been one more "Why I hate Frostkeeper" rather than "Buff Rime"
    Last edited by Gunian; 09-28-2016 at 04:00 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokken` View Post
    And what about PvE ?
    You tell me.

    I'm not aware of how GZ/ER is a necessary element for Raids. But if that is the case, kindly disregard my suggestion.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gunian View Post
    Totally gut a specs utility in PvE so it's not op in the desert of PvP
    I'm not sure how putting a restraint on how well the FK can heal a second target while healing the first qualifies as 'gutting' the soul. But I am willing to be enlightened.
    Last edited by Nefelia; 09-29-2016 at 05:11 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    You tell me.

    I'm not aware of how GZ/ER is a necessary element for Raids. But if that is the case, kindly disregard my suggestion.

    I'm not sure how putting a restraint on how well the FK can heal a second target while healing the first qualifies as 'gutting' the soul. But I am willing to be enlightened.
    Enlightenment: Some encounters require 2 (or more) tanks. Purifier manages this with Divine Favor, Frostkeeper with GZ. By all means PLEASE put a significant PvP reduction on GZ. Nerfing it across the board however will significantly reduce the viability of Frostkeeper in raids. FKs are replacing Purifiers in raids - wasn't that the goal?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uviktig View Post
    Enlightenment: Some encounters require 2 (or more) tanks. Purifier manages this with Divine Favor, Frostkeeper with GZ. By all means PLEASE put a significant PvP reduction on GZ. Nerfing it across the board however will significantly reduce the viability of Frostkeeper in raids. FKs are replacing Purifiers in raids - wasn't that the goal?
    ER/Harmony - every 6 seconds or so- on the off-tank followed by the occasional Rime-via-GZ would not accomplish this (honest question, as I'm rather curious as to how the FK plays in Raids)?

    If a PvP-specific nerf is necessary to not disrupt something that is well tuned in PvE, then that is the way to go. The majority of PvP players want a balanced FK for PvP, but none of them have any interest in intentionally disrupting PvE balance.

    Thanks for your input.
    Last edited by Nefelia; 09-30-2016 at 05:42 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Ok, Here Ya Go

    FK tooltip for Ground Zero "Casting Rime or Earthen Renewal on the target of your Earthen Barrier will cast the same spell on the target of your Frost Barrier. Casting Rime or Earthen Renewal on the target of your Frost Barrier will cast the same spell on the target of your Earthen Barrier. Lasts 1h." As stated above, it's the ability that allows a Frostkeeper to heal more than one tank at a time, hence making it a raid viable spec.

    Raid instances often call for a Main Tank/ Off Tank composition due to their inherent design. In some instances the Main tank handles the Boss in the encounter and the off tank handles the mobs. In other encounters the active tank acquires stacks that increase the damage the tank takes to the point the heals are unsustainable, forcing a tank swap to allow time for the stacks of damage buffs to fall off, or it can be a combination of both.

    But the point is, Ground Zero is the essential Frostkeeper ability to heal Two tanks at the same time. Raids can be tightly tuned for dps checks and having two single target healers is not an option, especially in 10 man content, which will be the design of the new CoA expansion raids.
    Last edited by Gunian; 09-30-2016 at 07:01 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunian View Post
    But the point is, Ground Zero is the essential Frostkeeper ability to heal Two tanks at the same time.
    I understand that, and have no problem with such a mechanic as a unique feature of the FK.

    My only issue with GZ has been that it is useable with a spell as powerful as ER (especially given the 1-second cast times possible with RotE). In PvP, this is one of the FK's abilities that most seriously contribute to its blatantly overpowered status.

    If the FK can not balance the healing two tanks with the flexible use of (not-compatable-with-GZ) ER and (compatable-with-GZ) Rime, then do make any such correction PvP-specific. Or, do buff Rime so that it can at least match the performance of the cleric's DF, ffs.

    Other avenues of correcting the FK so that it does not negatively effect PvE balance would be:
    - nerf Inner Might
    - nerf Earthen Rapport

    Are there any objections to that from the PvE community?
    Last edited by Nefelia; 09-30-2016 at 10:53 AM.

  9. #9
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    ... or just purge at least one of the barriers?
    Dom, Caba, Maelstrom, Jumpalist, MM, Inq, Def/Inq, RS/Inq, VK, BM, Chon - all can do that ... even Necro D: ....... even Typhoon '-'
    or interrupt the cast, or CC or interrupt and CC ... afaik, Fading Light is still broken so I guess that's g00d(?)

    From my experience 2-3 dps can easily handle a FK like any other healer, if they know what they are doing. If you expect to solo a single target healer, then you have problems and should seek help.
    I'm sorry, I just fail to see how OP FK is ... specially on PvE but that goes beyond the subject, methinks. It's undoublty strong, but I think PvP gradual healing reduction should be able to Fix it.

    A suggestion I'd have tho, is to remove the passive mana regen and add active mana regen, It'd raise FKs downtime, which in my opinion is silly, but ppl really seem to hate FK, so wtv.

    Now on the other hand, i do believe Rime deserves a buff, instant with cooldown or being affected by TB. It's just kinda useless in it's current state ... or maybe a buff on the lower chloro tree, idk, idc anymore at this point.

    Also, Eternal Preservation seem not to work properly several times even on PvE.
    FK was released way buggy, guess it's too hard to fix it, maybe on 4.0, who knows.

    Also, lol@ppl discussing balance b4 4.0. (Not you Nefelia, I understand what ure tryin to do =)
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  10. #10
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    You don't change a soul to fix one aspect. That's why there are pvp reductions.

    PVP reduction to Inner Might (10% instead of 30%)
    PVP reduction to Earthen Rapport (10-15% penalty)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riane View Post
    You don't change a soul to fix one aspect. That's why there are pvp reductions.

    PVP reduction to Inner Might (10% instead of 30%)
    PVP reduction to Earthen Rapport (10-15% penalty)
    I view IM and Earthen Rapport as PvP-oriented talents in the first place. They are abilities that greatly contribute to the resilience of the FK under serious focused fire (the chief complaint amongst PvP players), which is a common occurrance in PvP but less so in PvE.

    Healers within raids have been doing well up to this point without passive self-heals proccing on every cast. An FK who is competently handling the mechanics of a raid should be covered by the AoE raid healer, no?

    It makes me wonder: if FK-level resilience and passive self-healing are required for raids, how do any of the other healing souls compete?
    Last edited by Nefelia; 09-30-2016 at 01:37 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    I view IM and Earthen Rapport as PvP-oriented talents in the first place. They are abilities that greatly contribute to the resilience of the FK under serious focused fire (the chief complaint amongst PvP players), which is a common occurrance in PvP but less so in PvE.

    Healers within raids have been doing well up to this point without passive self-heals proccing on every cast. An FK who is competently handling the mechanics of a raid should be covered by the AoE raid healer, no?

    It makes me wonder: if FK-level resilience and passive self-healing are required for raids, how do any of the other healing souls compete?
    I wouldn't call Inner Might self healing or self resilience. If the raid takes a huge chunk of dmg, the FK can heal and shield for more for a moment of time. This is used to heal the raid and the tank(s).

    I would recommend you leave FK alone til you see 4.0, the legendary abilities, and how it all balances together before you suggest any more changes to FK's pvp or pve healing capabilities.
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  13. #13
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    Default Yes, Objection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    I understand that, and have no problem with such a mechanic as a unique feature of the FK.

    My only issue with GZ has been that it is useable with a spell as powerful as ER (especially given the 1-second cast times possible with RotE). In PvP, this is one of the FK's abilities that most seriously contribute to its blatantly overpowered status.

    If the FK can not balance the healing two tanks with the flexible use of (not-compatable-with-GZ) ER and (compatable-with-GZ) Rime, then do make any such correction PvP-specific. Or, do buff Rime so that it can at least match the performance of the cleric's DF, ffs.

    Other avenues of correcting the FK so that it does not negatively effect PvE balance would be:
    - nerf Inner Might
    - nerf Earthen Rapport

    Are there any objections to that from the PvE community?
    How can such a statement be made if one doesn't raid, doesn't PvE or have an understanding of the content or what will be necessary for the forthcoming expansion?

    Trying to predicate Frostkeepers performance and what may be necessary in PvE based on what is happening in PvP is a misguided proposition. If the PvP community would like changes in that environment, fine. But don't tinker with it in PvE.

  14. #14
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deeew View Post
    I wouldn't call Inner Might self healing or self resilience. If the raid takes a huge chunk of dmg, the FK can heal and shield for more for a moment of time. This is used to heal the raid and the tank(s).

    I would recommend you leave FK alone til you see 4.0, the legendary abilities, and how it all balances together before you suggest any more changes to FK's pvp or pve healing capabilities.

    Frostkeeper issues aren't PVE-related. They're primarly a HUGE issue in PVP because of the PA, broken mastery, and well.. it's survivability in comparison to other healing souls. That's the wrong approach to how strong Frostkeeper is in PVP. It has far more self-sustainability than any other healing soul in the game outside of the mitigation you pick up as a WC/Lib hybrid.

    it's also wrong to think Inner Might isn't "self-healing" because a 30% boost to your outgoing heals while you're sub 50% is self-sustainability. It is stupid strong in PVP because of this. That "moment of time" is enough to survive various CDs being used on you to get back to 100% and out of the danger zone.

    That being said, I wouldn't expect too much more time invested into reducing FK's survivability with 4.0 on the horizon. And honestly, the Legendaries are going to showcase how much more of a reduction FK will need in PVP. It's going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    I view IM and Earthen Rapport as PvP-oriented talents in the first place. They are abilities that greatly contribute to the resilience of the FK under serious focused fire (the chief complaint amongst PvP players), which is a common occurrance in PvP but less so in PvE.

    Healers within raids have been doing well up to this point without passive self-heals proccing on every cast. An FK who is competently handling the mechanics of a raid should be covered by the AoE raid healer, no?

    It makes me wonder: if FK-level resilience and passive self-healing are required for raids, how do any of the other healing souls compete?
    Oh, you're not wrong--Those two are very much favorable for a PVP setting. But you don't need to rework the soul to remove/change them. It's not necessary and it's something that's never been done before. You just work with what you have versus completely changing things up.

    So all that has to be done is just have pvp reduction applied to those specific abilities.

    But if you really want a good answer from a PVE aspect: Earthen Rapport gives that FK a lot more survivability than other tank heals since it's 100% passive. Majority of the time it'll be more Overhealing than actual throughput.
    Last edited by Riane; 09-30-2016 at 02:57 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riane View Post

    it's also wrong to think Inner Might isn't "self-healing" because a 30% boost to your outgoing heals while you're sub 50% is self-sustainability.
    In my opinion, Self healing is healing that is only usable on yourself.

    Inner Might boosts healing done and shielding done overall, not just to yourself. If inner might only boosted healing and shielding by 30% to heals only done to yourself, then I could respect the claim that it is a self healing boost.

    Maybe in the PVP sense of the word, any healing is considered self healing, however in PVE, self healing is things that u use to only heal urself with. For Example: Living Shell is self-sustainability, as you cannot use it on other targets other than yourself.

    Earthen rapport is self sustainability as it only works on yourself.

    Now, we can argue that the ability to heal and shield for 30% more once u reach below 50% health is very strong, but I think its purge-able? I could be wrong. That right there removes a large amount of the problem. It has a fairly lengthy ICD, so if it is in fact purge-able, there's ur solution for PVP. If it isn't purge-able, it should be.

    You could make it 15% in pvp only, but I really dont see a 15% reduction for a talent fairly high in the tree and with a decent ICD really solving any problems for FK PVP healing. FK was designed to be a strong multi-target healer, and it succeeds (albit maybe too strongly) in that task.

    To the OP: Asking for direct nerfs to a entire healer due to PVP issues, is not exactly the most optimal way to approaching class balance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
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